Is Showing Cleavage Immodest? What Does the Bible Say?

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Dylan_Chica

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AutumnDreamer said:
Yes thank you, I quite agree. I just wasn't sure if you were responding to me or something else.

sorry if i came across as harsh, ok i just responded to the thread without reading all the replies to it wasn't really for you but i'm glad you agree, a woman should be able to dress the way she feels like dressing without men drewling all over her like she was a piece of meat
 
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CharAznable

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AutumnDreamer said:
Depends on who wear them and how they fit that particular person, Me for instance it would depend how high the neckline comes if it is too high for my comfort then I will choose to show some cleavage. Yes the high collar one would technically more modest but at what cost? I for example have physical problems if my shirt is too high in the neck, this is why I can not wear turtlenecks.



I absolutely agree, and when we are not pleaseing God He lets us know through our convictions.



Yes, and quite often I do, however I still show some cleavage, even with a tank top under my blouse.



yes, my comfort is important, not only to me but to God. I have asthma. Quite often if clothing is too restrictive, or too high in the collar this can give me a feeling like I am strangling which in turns stimulates an asthma attack. I really don't think you can compare wearing clothesthat are comfortable to go out and do things, with staying at home doing nothing. But for the sake of arguement ok. Is sitting at home eating a pizza and watching Tv a sin? No, unless God has told you to do otherwise and you are not doing it. but again it is a matter of your heart.



Don't worry about singling me out, I like to talk from my perspective b/c that is the only one I am sure of ;) . Yes sometimes God takes us out of our comfort zone, and the way I dress now is a result of that. I used to dress very modest according to some definition, of course that also kept me from leaving my house all the time, it also kept me lodged in a state of depression, it wasn't until God brought me out of that, that I started to dress differently and even then it was out of my comfort zone and I had to rely on submitting to my husband to change, I do not my any stretch of the imagination dress provacitively, but I do dress less modestly then some would think b/c I do show some cleavage.

Ok, you have a unique situation. Now while we can't necessarily impose our beliefs on anyone, could the average woman say that a shirt with no cleavage isn't more modest than a shirt with cleavage? I can't see how that is possible. In your situation, you are doing your best, doing any more may cause an asthma attack. However, could the average woman honestly say more cleavage is more modest than no cleavage? Again, your situation is unique, and really it doesn't matter how anyone sees you, but rather if you are trying your best.

As far as the sitting home and watching TV thing... what I'm saying is that the homeless man is outside my door and wants food. I have plenty of food to give him, but because I am comfortable sitting home watching the game and eating pizza, I ignore him. While there is nothing wrong with watching TV, how can you justify ignoring the pleas of a homeless hungry man when you have something to offer him. That's what I was trying to get across with the comfort zone thing. I was trying to say that even though the activity you were doing wasn't itself sinful, and you were comfortable, it is your duty as a Christian to go and do more, your best, which in this case would be to get up out of your comfort zone and offer the homeless guy 2 slices of pizza.
 
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AutumnDreamer

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CharAznable said:
As far as the sitting home and watching TV thing... what I'm saying is that the homeless man is outside my door and wants food. I have plenty of food to give him, but because I am comfortable sitting home watching the game and eating pizza, I ignore him. While there is nothing wrong with watching TV, how can you justify ignoring the pleas of a homeless hungry man when you have something to offer him. That's what I was trying to get across with the comfort zone thing. I was trying to say that even though the activity you were doing wasn't itself sinful, and you were comfortable, it is your duty as a Christian to go and do more, your best, which in this case would be to get up out of your comfort zone and offer the homeless guy 2 slices of pizza.

I don't believe we are to help the homeless just b/c they are homeless. It may seem like I am doing this to argue really I am not. We have been dealing a lot with the homeless in this area we are in, there are things we would love to do, but God does not want us to do them for whatever reason we may never know. Again using the TV scenario, if God told you to go out and give the homeless guy some of your pizza and you don't that is sin. But maybe God is not telling to you do that? Maybe this guy is outside your home waiting to stab you, or rape you. The Lord may not be leading you to help for any number of reasons. DO you see what I mean? It is not something that is B&W. There are a lot of people I would love to bring home and feed them, give them a bed to sleep in, but for the safety of myself and my family the Lord is not leading me to do that at this time. I am willing, and even able, but if I am not listening to Him, and do it when He may be telling me not to, then I am in just as much sin as if if He told me to and I didn't. So for someone who is looking at a shirt, and God is telling them no it is too revealing for you, and they get it anyway, they are in sin. Not b/c of the revealing shirt, but b/c they were disobedient.
 
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wonderwaleye

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Dear AutumnDreamer


" simply that men lust not b/c of the clothes women wear "



I wonder if these words ring a bell:


" OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND "


For some reason I don't think these words play a big part in women's clothes design.



NOW SINCE YOU UNDESTAND MEN:


" lust not b/c of the clothes women wear but b/c they are men "


SHOULD MY UNDERSTANDING OF WOMEN BE:


" lust not b/c of the clothes men wear but because they are
woman "



Come to think of it, a part of it makes sense to me.


At least the part:

" MEN + WOMEN = BABES"




AS A MAN, I CAN TELL YOU THERE ARE TIMES WHEN IT BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT TO REMEMBER:




XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you ) steven
 
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bliz

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Even if women cover up their clevage, it will still be very clear that they have breasts! Knowing there are breasts, seeing the size and shape of the breasts through the modest clothing could also be tempting to men and cause them to sin.

I think the only sensible solution is for women to bind their breasts.

Or, perhaps, wear a head to toe cloak of some sort with a little netting where their eyes are so they don't stumble and fall. Something like...

or

see, they come in pretty colors, too!


There! That ought to keep men from lusting!
 
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asianchexmix

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AutumnDreamer said:
So at what point do men start taking responsibility for their actions? Self-control is a fruit of the spirit, and maybe if men had a little bit more this wouldn't be an issue, I mean it is kind of like blaming McD's for americans getting fat.

Of course we have self-control but to an extent. Girls know that we are trying to control ourselves. Guys know that we are trying to control ourselves. Just because we must control ourselves doesn't make it a logical reason to wear whatever you want. As a family in Christ, you should be trying to help us STOP it. Yes, its hard because guys are visual beings and someone made a good point that regardless or not, we will see breasts. Binding up or whatnot doesn't make sense because thats beyond the girls control. If they wear modest clothing and guys still lust and whatnot, that is their (guys) fault. BUT its an entirely different story when it comes to when girls CHOOSINGLY wear outfits bearing cleavage. That's basically girls pushing guys off the cliff because even though we supposed to control ourselves, you know satan will hit you harder in those areas. Showing cleavage in that case is the small spark to ignite a wildfire. Is it a sin to bear cleavage? I would say through reasoning yes because when it comes down to it, WHY do you bear cleavage? It's not giving God glory by showing your stuff. If that's the case, guys would be walking around with their thingies out. Girls can LOOK good without compromising their bodies. If you can honestly say by showing cleavage it gives God glory, then 1) you're wrong and 2) I'm praying for you. I think that's what it ultimately comes down to....is <insert the thing you do> glorifying God? We were made for glorifying Him and Him alone not showing off how God created us. I'm sure not many people will say "I saw God by looking at some girl's cleavage".
 
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live4grace

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CharAznable said:
I believe so, but I was wondering if someone can use reasoning other than "you cause others to stumble"

It is as you put it, one who shows cleavage is not necessarily sinning (though she may be - only God knows the heart), but she is definitely causing those who are tempted through the eye-gate (mostly men) to notice and fall in thoughts first and later, if sin progresses, in deed.

There's a misunderstanding among those (mostly women) who are not so tempted. They would legitimately find nothing wrong with those things that tempt others. If you want, it's a "weakness" men have (women have theirs too), and I don't mean to generalize except to tell the truth.

Advertisers have long had the saying "sex sells" and that's why cleavage is part of selling almost anything. The message is "buy this and you'll get that buxom lady too." That's pretty crass and dumb, but the appeal is there.

BTW, my wife talks about the "male cleavage" she has noticed too. Loose belts, overweight men bending over. You get the idea . Stangely, it has the opposite effect on her :scratch: . :)

Blessings!!
 
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FallingWaters

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bliz said:
Even if women cover up their clevage, it will still be very clear that they have breasts! Knowing there are breasts, seeing the size and shape of the breasts through the modest clothing could also be tempting to men and cause them to sin.

I think the only sensible solution is for women to bind their breasts.

Or, perhaps, wear a head to toe cloak of some sort with a little netting where their eyes are so they don't stumble and fall. Something like...

or

see, they come in pretty colors, too!


There! That ought to keep men from lusting!

(Laughing out loud)
It is quite obvious dear sir, that you are studied in sarcastic humor. I dub you king for a day!
;)
 
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FallingWaters

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asianchexmix said:
As a family in Christ, you should be trying to help us STOP it...

Is it a sin to bear cleavage? I would say through reasoning yes because when it comes down to it, WHY do you bear cleavage? It's not giving God glory by showing your stuff. If that's the case, guys would be walking around with their thingies out.

Girls can LOOK good without compromising their bodies. If you can honestly say by showing cleavage it gives God glory, then 1) you're wrong and 2) I'm praying for you.

I think that's what it ultimately comes down to....is <insert the thing you do> glorifying God? We were made for glorifying Him and Him alone not showing off how God created us. I'm sure not many people will say "I saw God by looking at some girl's cleavage".

Good for you! Excellent! You are so right. We ARE family. And if I REALLY love my brother, I will protect him, and look out for his best interests.
 
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AutumnDreamer

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I agree with you to an extent. I agree that women who choose to show a huge amount of cleavage will cause men to stumble and are probably doing it with that intent. However not all cleavage is meant to be shown in that way. Look at the profile pic in Jacquidube's profile, can you honestly say that that amount of cleavage is a stumbling block that a woman should be blamed for? Rather then having the man take responsibility for his actions and not look? I mean come one, what constitutes cleavage? A freaking line. A woman could be wearing a shirt that is open to the waist, but if she isn't wearing a bra she isn't showing cleavage. I just think it is ridiculous to blame a woman for showing a small amount of cleavage that may or may not be her fault.

asianchexmix said:
Of course we have self-control but to an extent. Girls know that we are trying to control ourselves. Guys know that we are trying to control ourselves. Just because we must control ourselves doesn't make it a logical reason to wear whatever you want. As a family in Christ, you should be trying to help us STOP it. Yes, its hard because guys are visual beings and someone made a good point that regardless or not, we will see breasts. Binding up or whatnot doesn't make sense because thats beyond the girls control. If they wear modest clothing and guys still lust and whatnot, that is their (guys) fault. BUT its an entirely different story when it comes to when girls CHOOSINGLY wear outfits bearing cleavage. That's basically girls pushing guys off the cliff because even though we supposed to control ourselves, you know satan will hit you harder in those areas. Showing cleavage in that case is the small spark to ignite a wildfire. Is it a sin to bear cleavage? I would say through reasoning yes because when it comes down to it, WHY do you bear cleavage? It's not giving God glory by showing your stuff. If that's the case, guys would be walking around with their thingies out. Girls can LOOK good without compromising their bodies. If you can honestly say by showing cleavage it gives God glory, then 1) you're wrong and 2) I'm praying for you. I think that's what it ultimately comes down to....is <insert the thing you do> glorifying God? We were made for glorifying Him and Him alone not showing off how God created us. I'm sure not many people will say "I saw God by looking at some girl's cleavage".
 
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asianchexmix

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AutumnDreamer said:
I agree with you to an extent. I agree that women who choose to show a huge amount of cleavage will cause men to stumble and are probably doing it with that intent. However not all cleavage is meant to be shown in that way.

Key word there is meant. It wasn't MEANT to be that but honestly, do guys care about intentions? Hahaha I sure don't. If it's out in the open, its fair game. Thats how the male mind operates. If it's out there, we will look. We kinda disregard the intentions because we see boobies and I am being extremely blunt yet simple. Sorry guys for letting out our secret. :doh:

AutumnDreamer said:
Look at the profile pic in Jacquidube's profile, can you honestly say that that amount of cleavage is a stumbling block that a woman should be blamed for? Rather then having the man take responsibility for his actions and not look? I mean come one, what constitutes cleavage? A freaking line. A woman could be wearing a shirt that is open to the waist, but if she isn't wearing a bra she isn't showing cleavage.

Although cleavage may be a line, I'm not talking about the line here. EVEN if she was only wearing a bra, that still shows us guys something. We ARE taking responsibility for our actions. We try to look away. If the guy has read "Every Young Men's Battle" series, it says to do the bouncing eyes technique. We know what to do but here is the thing. We have other plaecs we need to do that stuff. I mean we got the whole world we need to worry about. Seeing another sister in Christ doing that stuff just makes it worse for us. It does sound selfish in the girl point of view but that is our weakness. Do you understand what I'm saying? YES it is our responsibility to not look but it is also YOUR responsibility to not create MORE stumbling blocks. And if we truly embrace that we are family, why create more stumbling blocks than necessary?

In the same case, us guys should watch out what we say to you girls. We know not to call you things because thats where girls have their weakness...in what they hear (from what I hear). It's not about who is to blame because ultimately it is satan. But as a family, us guys watch out for you girls and vice versa. Thats how a family operates.

AutumnDreamer said:
I just think it is ridiculous to blame a woman for showing a small amount of cleavage that may or may not be her fault.

I want to know how it isn't her fault. Did she pick the outfit? Did she buy the outfit? I mean it is her choice to show cleavage or any skin for that matter. When it comes down to it, it isn't media who decides. It isn't family who decides. it isn't the dog who decides. When it comes down to it, it is YOU who decides. Saying it isn't your fault for showing cleavage is a ridiculous statement.

I think when it comes down to it, it's the fact of is it glorifying God as I said before. Trust me, I got my own things that really make me think if its for His glory or ours. Here is what I think of when I see two people in different outfits:

Nicely dressed but showing skin: "Oh..wow. She looks nice but dang...look at this and that"
Nicely dressed without showing skin: "Wow..she looks nice!"

See how that is? I should charge you for getting inside my brain because thats truly how guys operate (generally....the guy/girl comparisons are generally speaking). I mean yes I could think that even she isn't showing skin look at this and that but there is a less chance for that. Why take that chance? Why roll a dice when the outcome can only be bad?
 
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c1ners

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You know what I think is funny?
Men constantly complain that women show too much of their bodies, and therefore cause them to sin.
But....if we cover ourselves from head to toe, men complain that we are not trying to look our best.
It's a no win situation.
Dress how YOU think it pleases God.
I don't think it's right for a man to blame a woman for their own impurities.
However, women do need to dress as modestly as they can. Not for men, but for GOD!
 
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asianchexmix

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c1ners said:
You know what I think is funny?
Men constantly complain that women show too much of their bodies, and therefore cause them to sin.
But....if we cover ourselves from head to toe, men complain that we are not trying to look our best.
It's a no win situation.
Dress how YOU think it pleases God.
I don't think it's right for a man to blame a woman for their own impurities.
However, women do need to dress as modestly as they can. Not for men, but for GOD!

That is my whole point. Why couldn't I have just said that? LOL. :clap:
 
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AutumnDreamer

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c1ners said:
You know what I think is funny?
Men constantly complain that women show too much of their bodies, and therefore cause them to sin.
But....if we cover ourselves from head to toe, men complain that we are not trying to look our best.
It's a no win situation.
Dress how YOU think it pleases God.
I don't think it's right for a man to blame a woman for their own impurities.
However, women do need to dress as modestly as they can. Not for men, but for GOD!

:amen:
 
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Since we are being blunt, I will be also, let me explain to you how a women's body works. There are two kinds of bras, those that support and those that don't. The bras that don't are the ones that don't show cleavage. Not when you are rather well endowed in the chest area if you are wearing a bra that does not support you this causes all kinds of problems. Back problems, shoulder problems, etc. So to avoid be in constant pain, you choose a bra that supports, well in order to support it has to lift, when it lifts it causes cleavage. Look at the photo in my profile, there is nothing provacative with that shirt, but b/c of my size when you are looking at my striaght on there is a line that creates cleavage. The only option I have is wearing shirts that come up to my neck, so why should I have to fit my wardrobe around other men, when my husband would prefer me to dress a certain way? The point is there are different amounts of cleavage and there are different reasons for cleavage. Some of them can not be helped, it is the way a woman is made, and the way her undergarments are made that cause the cleavage. But men seem to think "well if they wouldn't wear it we wouldn't look" and you are absoluetly right, however, who is responsible for your actions?

Let me ask you this, if you saw two women standing next too each other, one has a small chest and is wearing a shirt that shoes a small amount of cleavage, the other has pamala anderson boobs and is wearing a snug tshirt showing no cleavage, which one you are more likely to look at?

asianchexmix said:
Key word there is meant. It wasn't MEANT to be that but honestly, do guys care about intentions? Hahaha I sure don't. If it's out in the open, its fair game. Thats how the male mind operates. If it's out there, we will look. We kinda disregard the intentions because we see boobies and I am being extremely blunt yet simple. Sorry guys for letting out our secret. :doh:



Although cleavage may be a line, I'm not talking about the line here. EVEN if she was only wearing a bra, that still shows us guys something. We ARE taking responsibility for our actions. We try to look away. If the guy has read "Every Young Men's Battle" series, it says to do the bouncing eyes technique. We know what to do but here is the thing. We have other plaecs we need to do that stuff. I mean we got the whole world we need to worry about. Seeing another sister in Christ doing that stuff just makes it worse for us. It does sound selfish in the girl point of view but that is our weakness. Do you understand what I'm saying? YES it is our responsibility to not look but it is also YOUR responsibility to not create MORE stumbling blocks. And if we truly embrace that we are family, why create more stumbling blocks than necessary?

In the same case, us guys should watch out what we say to you girls. We know not to call you things because thats where girls have their weakness...in what they hear (from what I hear). It's not about who is to blame because ultimately it is satan. But as a family, us guys watch out for you girls and vice versa. Thats how a family operates.



I want to know how it isn't her fault. Did she pick the outfit? Did she buy the outfit? I mean it is her choice to show cleavage or any skin for that matter. When it comes down to it, it isn't media who decides. It isn't family who decides. it isn't the dog who decides. When it comes down to it, it is YOU who decides. Saying it isn't your fault for showing cleavage is a ridiculous statement.

I think when it comes down to it, it's the fact of is it glorifying God as I said before. Trust me, I got my own things that really make me think if its for His glory or ours. Here is what I think of when I see two people in different outfits:

Nicely dressed but showing skin: "Oh..wow. She looks nice but dang...look at this and that"
Nicely dressed without showing skin: "Wow..she looks nice!"

See how that is? I should charge you for getting inside my brain because thats truly how guys operate (generally....the guy/girl comparisons are generally speaking). I mean yes I could think that even she isn't showing skin look at this and that but there is a less chance for that. Why take that chance? Why roll a dice when the outcome can only be bad?
 
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asianchexmix

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c1ners said:
However, women do need to dress as modestly as they can. Not for men, but for GOD!

I think that sums up the whole thing I was trying to say. I think this is going into more of a debate of cleavage. My whole reasoning of bringing the male perspective was about helping us out not sin which helps everyone get closer to God. Thats the reason behind why girls should dress modestly. If it's uncontrollable, then do what you gotta do. Under all of what I said about guys, its because we stumble and go into sin. I mean if you blatantly do it, then its not good of course. If its inevitable and you tried and tried and you can't control it for the life of you, then just do what you gotta do. I think we are getting too much into this and the general consensus is "less is more".
 
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chaoschristian

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NEWS ARTICLE

Sex cues ruin men's decisiveness

Catching sight of a pretty woman really is enough to throw a man's decision-making skills into disarray, a study suggests. The more testosterone he has, the stronger the effect, according to work by Belgian researchers. Men about to play a financial game were shown images of sexy women or lingerie.

The Proceedings of the Royal Society B study found they were more likely to accept unfair offers than men not been exposed to the alluring images. The suggestion is that the sexual cues distract the men's thoughts, preventing them from focusing on their task - particularly among those with high natural testosterone levels.

The University of Leuven researchers gave 176 heterosexual male student volunteers aged 18 to 28 financial games to test their fair play. They are looking for opportunities to pass on their genes Dr George Fieldman, Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College
But first, half of the men were shown sexual cues of some kind. One group of 44 men were given pictures to rate; some were shown landscapes while the rest were shown attractive women. Another group, of 37 men, were either asked to assess the quality, texture and colour of a bra or a t-shirt. And a third group of 95 were shown either pictures of elderly women or young models.

Each group was then paired up to play a game where the men had $10, a proposer had to suggest a split, and the other man accepted or rejected the offer.

If the second man accepted the offer, the money was distributed in agreement with the offer. If he rejected it, neither partner got anything. The game is designed as a lab model of hunting or food sharing situations.

The men's performance in the tests showed those who had been exposed to the "sexual cues" were more likely to accept an unfair offer than those who were not.
The men's testosterone levels were also tested - by comparing the length of the men's index finger compared to their ring finger.

If the ring finger is longest, it indicates a high testosterone level.

The researchers found that men in the study who had the highest levels performed worst in the test, and suggest that is because they are particularly sensitive to sexual images.

Dr Siegfried DeWitte, one of the researchers who worked on the study, said: "We like to think we are all rational beings, but our research suggests ... that people with high testosterone levels are very vulnerable to sexual cues. "If there are no cues around, they behave normally. "But if they see sexual images they become impulsive." He added: "It's a tendency, but these people are not powerless to fight it. "Hormone levels are one thing, but we can learn to deal with it."

The researchers are conducting similar tests with women. But so far, they have failed to find a visual stimulus which will affect their behaviour."

Dr George Fieldman, principal lecturer in psychology at Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College, told the BBC News website: "The fact men are distracted by sexual cues fits in to evolutionary experience. It's what they are expected to do. "They are looking for opportunities to pass on their genes." He said the study confirmed what had been suspected by many.

"If a man is being asked to choose between something being presented by an attractive woman and an ugly men, they might not be as dispassionate as they could be."

Men, check your ring fingers.

If I were a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, I would have women do all of the business negotiations.

Is showing cleavage sinful?

The human body is not sinful. Using the human body with the intent to manipulate others is sinful, because it preys upon our animal nature.

A woman can show cleavage and commit no sin.

If a man then accuses that woman of making him stumble, he is doing nothing more than projecting and ascribing his own weakness and nature onto another.
 
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TheDag

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AutumnDreamer said:
So at what point do men start taking responsibility for their actions? Self-control is a fruit of the spirit, and maybe if men had a little bit more this wouldn't be an issue, I mean it is kind of like blaming McD's for americans getting fat.

Just like God didn't accept Adam's excuse in the garden that Eve gave him the fruit so God won't accept the guy saying it isn't my fault she was wearing skimpy clothing. Just like God didn't accept Eve's excuse that the serpent tricked her so he won't accept excuses saying but I had to look fashionable or if the guy can't control himself then it isn't my problem.
 
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TheDag said:
Just like God didn't accept Adam's excuse in the garden that Eve gave him the fruit so God won't accept the guy saying it isn't my fault she was wearing skimpy clothing. Just like God didn't accept Eve's excuse that the serpent tricked her so he won't accept excuses saying but I had to look fashionable or if the guy can't control himself then it isn't my problem.

I completely agree!
 
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