Is Seminary the Easiest Place to Backslide

[rockytopva]

My old Baptist preacher wrote an article in which he claims that Seminary the easiest place to backslide.

Back when I started my job every one I knew went to a certain Baptist church. Well, the old country preacher retires and they get one with a doctorate degree. The guy has no people skills now no one I know attends that church. I tend to believe that seminary can be a dangerous place if one looses ones walk with the Lord.

 

[Philip_B]

The easiest place to backslide is where you are. Seminary seems unlikely but there is a big risk. The word means 'seed bed' however sadly too often it is a wind tunnel.

Be careful about criticising the new guy too hard, he may well be there for a reason, because we do not go the Church for the minister, and maybe you can help him grow as well.

It normally takes a few years for the bruises of theological education to be repaired. Keep him in your prayers is my best advice.

 

[Deadworm]

My Dad's cousin went to seminary in Canada. When he graduated and took a church, his relatives claimed that he was a better preacher before he attended seminary. On the other hand, Princeton Seminary may well have saved my faith after a prior period of severe doubt.
In my youth, one statement by an well-read, but uneducated layman had a great impact on my life. Gordon was complaining the few evangelicals he knew were avid readers and he longed for something more. As Gordon put it, "You don't have to be stupid to be a Chrstian, but sometimes I think it sure helps." I soon realized how few Christian I knew had a deep hunger to learn more of God's truth; rather, they seemed to long for fresh confirmations of what they already believed. They seemed utterly incapable of and indifferent to the need for a passionately honest and open inquiry into the Truth.

But if you attend a good seminary (instead of Hallelujah Bible College), you will have to live in your head for 3 years, and this can cast you into a spiritual dry spell for a while. So it is important to seek out devout Christian fellowship in seminary. Also, some seminaries are more conducive to powerful spiritual experiences than others and the spiritual atmosphere of a given seminary may vary from decade to decade. So rather than base your decision on a particular seminary's reputation, you need to research the faculty and their publications and teaching reputations (e. g. check out YouTube) before you make your decision. The right handful of professors can make all the spiritual difference and upgrade your spiritual experience dramatically.

 

[SnowyMacie]

There was a saying at my university that an MDiv degree is called an "Atheism degree" because of how many people lose their faith as a result of obtaining or trying to obtain a Masters of Divinity. The reason behind this, I think, is the hard truths that are learned as a part of academically studying the Bible. My university required everyone to take four semesters of Bible, and I remember on the first day of the first freshman Bible class we took, our professor blatantly told us "everything you learned in Sunday School is wrong." To some degree, that was actually true. For example, I was always taught that every gospel is written independently, however, as I learned in "Life and Teachings of Jesus", it's likely that Mark was written first and Luke and Matthew used Mark as a source. That's even only one of many theories.

That was only the freshman bible classes that everyone took, Bible majors took completely separate classes that were even more intense and in-depth. As a sophomore or junior, I was having a conversation with a Bible major friend of mine and our youth minister, and he was talking about how much he was learning about scripture, and mentioned learning in Greek class and others about how some passages says this, that's not really what it means in the Greek. Our youth minister nodded in agreement. That's what happens when you take those classes, you learn that the Greek word for virgin in the same word for young woman, for example.

What I think happens is some people learn those things about what the language means, the origins of scripture, etc. and can't reconcile it with what they were taught growing up. I don't think that's a personal fault, nor is it seminaries' fault either. It's probably some combination of lack of adequate teaching and support from the seminary and unsteady faith. Now, I was having a conversation about this with another friend of mine, and he said "It's like some people are trying to instill doubt." That could not be further from the truth, seminaries are for the purposes of education people to be experts on scripture and theology. This requires teaching things that don't fit into a nice, neat little box. I want my pastor knowing those things if he is going to be teaching about scripture, and it's also why I believe that pastors believe or at the very least know things they would never share with their congregation.

 

[Deadworm]

TX Matt: "There was a saying at my university that an MDiv degree is called an "Atheism degree" because of how many people lose their faith as a result of obtaining or trying to obtain a Masters of Divinity."

Many fundamentalists are raised on the Domino doctrine of biblical inspiration, the doctrine that either the Bible is totally inerrant in every way or it is a collection of fairy tales that should be dismissed. Then when one incontrovertible biblical error is discovered, the student enters a downward spiral towards agnosticism. The Domino theory also sabotages character development by making its adherents doctrinally rigid, closed minded, and, yes, even intellectually dishonest.

TX Matt: "I remember on the first day of the first freshman Bible class we took, our professor blatantly told us "everything you learned in Sunday School is wrong.""

Seminarians quickly discover that their church has deprived them of essential information about the Bible, its formation, and its teaching. In the process, many make the additional discovery that they are fare more closed-minded than they realized and this discovery can be very painful to the honest seeker. Many get rid of the pain by rationalizing that their prior beliefs must have been true all along and that these new influences are ungodly.

TX Matt: "I was having a conversation with a Bible major friend of mine and our youth minister, and he was talking about how much he was learning about scripture, and mentioned learning in Greek class and others about how some passages says this, that's not really what it means in the Greek."

In a sense, the Bible's meaning can't be adequately captured in any one translation because there is no precise one to English word that is equivalent to many of the Greek and Hebrew words. One of the most disheartening insights of seminarians who lead church Bible studies is that many of their audience don't really want to know what the original Greek and Hebrew means. These same people pretend to want more of God in their lives, but refuse to watch excellent online documentaries on how history's greatest revivals developed and on what the decisive catalysts for each revival actually were.

TX Matt: "It's probably some combination of lack of adequate teaching and support from the seminary and unsteady faith."

The seminary I now most highly recommend to evangelicals is Asbury in Kentucky. The reason is twofold: (1) Asbury has excellent scholars. (2) More importantly, their graduates impressively witness to how this school made sure they had integrated their learning so as to become competent well-rounded pastors. Most seminaries don't perform such monitoring.
[btw, I never attended Asbury.]

TX Matt: "...he said "It's like some people are trying to instill doubt." That could not be further from the truth, seminaries are for the purposes of education people to be experts on scripture and theology."

The courage to doubt is a key to a more mature and better informed faith.



TXMatt: "I want my pastor knowing those things if he is going to be teaching about scripture."

When I had severe doubts about the Bible as a teen, I shared my doubts with my megachurch pastor. He could only give me answers that I had already considered and rejected. When I shared more doubts with a Bible School teacher, he had no answer and just told me that I could get all such answers in a seminary. In truth, he didn't know what he was talking about either. Their inadequacy in helping me was very distressing to my inquiring teenage mind.

 

[Greg J.]

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2, 1984 NIV)

It is a trap in any setting (e.g., seminary) to fix one's eyes on the knowledge of Jesus instead of knowing Jesus. Satan goes after intellectuals with this. Knowledge of Jesus serves as a foundation to communicate with other people (e.g., talk about God or evangelize) and is good. It also serves the important function of being part of the train ride from not knowing the Lord to knowing the Lord. But it is worthless compared to the truths you believe about Jesus (the kind of beliefs that have you taking action).

You can only know Jesus through Jesus himself and obedience to Jesus. Every other source is only a source of knowledge about Jesus. A spiritually mature Christian is not someone who knows a lot about Jesus, it is someone has known Jesus a long time. (1 Timothy 5:22 comes to mind for some reason.)

On top of this potentially devastating derailment, there is the matter of what to believe. Approaching any subject intellectually dictates learning about the study and results of that subject that other people have already accomplished. Ideally, it will enable a person to not repeat what has been done in the past. (But what we want to do exactly is repeat what has been done in the past.) Consequently, you can come up with your own unique subtopic for a thesis. That's really great for merely human pursuits, but it is not necessarily good for all people when it comes to knowing God. There is only one God and your relationship to him is/will be unique. It won't be like anyone else's relationship.

A study of the various ways people have interpreted a passage of Scripture fills a person's mind with lots of possibilities, which is sure to attack whatever the person believes about the Lord. It can be quite pleasurable to study these and along with your own interpretation come up with something that seems better to you. However, for some people that is an avenue of deception and increases their knowledge of what is false, rather helping them get closer to the truth.

In my mind, one should always at all times be aware of her goal to know the Lord better vs. learning about him. When a person does this, she can then keep revisiting the portions of Scripture related to what she is studying. It is a way of constantly testing the spirits, which can be accompanied by prayer asking the Lord's for help sifting through the dross—and learning what He wants her to learn.

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14:26, 1984 NIV)

Is a person willing to wait on the Holy Spirit for one's learning to learn all things, or is that not fast enough for him? Relying on God has long periods of time where one seems to not be learning anything. But if one is clinging to the Lord in their life, they will in actuality be learning much at a deeper level, which probably won't become apparent until later on.

Do not let yourselves be called leaders or teachers; for One is your Leader (Teacher), the Christ. (Matthew 23:10, AMP)

But as for me, I watch in hope for the LORD, I wait for God my Savior; my God will hear me. (Micah 7:7, 1984 NIV)

But I am not saying it is bad to go to seminary. Just be sure you go for the right reasons, keep watch, and cling to the Lord. Many people are able to draw on what they learned later in life when the Lord has granted them greater faith. Their knowledge then can produce much fruit.

If a student has learned enough to form his own opinion, he still has more to learn. We need to know the truth and be able to refute those who oppose it.

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. (Titus 1:9, 1984 NIV)

A person that is uncertain about the truth needs to spend more time with the Lord, being obedient in everything (Matthew 28:20).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="rockytopva, post: 70319402, member: 279443"]My old Baptist preacher wrote an article in which he claims that Seminary the easiest place to backslide.

Back when I started my job every one I knew went to a certain Baptist church. Well, the old country preacher retires and they get one with a doctorate degree. The guy has no people skills now no one I know attends that church. I tend to believe that seminary can be a dangerous place if one looses ones walk with the Lord. QUOTE
Any place is dangerous if not with the Messiah Y'SHUA.
Seminary is just dangerous because so many lose their faith while there, like the old country preacher observed.
The whole rest of the world is just dangerous for the same reason.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Some of the reasons parishioners leave behind a church and a Seminary trained pastor may reflect the fact that Seminaries, while great for learning about the Bible, are not so great in preparing soon to be church leaders to take on deep social and psychological problems among the people of the congregation. So, people leave because they feel these pastors don't know how to be helpful or relevant to the lives being lived on a concrete level. Sad, but true.

For instance, teaching a congregation about the importance of the conceptual nature of the Trinity does little to affect their divorces, their addictions, their job losses, their mental illnesses, etc. Nor does throwing a bible verse or two at people's problems really solve anything, and people are quick to realize this.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

My old Baptist preacher wrote an article in which he claims that Seminary the easiest place to backslide.

Back when I started my job every one I knew went to a certain Baptist church. Well, the old country preacher retires and they get one with a doctorate degree. The guy has no people skills now no one I know attends that church. I tend to believe that seminary can be a dangerous place if one looses ones walk with the Lord.

The bigger question would be why seminaries even cost money to begin with. Only in America would they charge you money to learn about Christ.

 

[rockytopva]

Good series...

 

[Goodbook]

The bigger question would be why seminaries even cost money to begin with. Only in America would they charge you money to learn about Christ.

In nz they charge money too. For bible colleges i think a diploma is like $5000.

What i suggest is if anyone wants to learn the Bible, ask God and he will give you a free copy and probably send you to primary school like He did with me to help teach. And it didnt cost me a cent.

 

[Philip_B]

Luke 10:7
It does cost money to provide educational resources, and somehow these things need to be funded. Either students pay fees, or denominations/congregations provide colleges or scholarships. Even if they don't pay fees there is a remarkable sacrifice undertaken by those who undertake a serious theological education. Do not shortchange the value that solid theological foundations bring to us as the Church.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Some of the reasons parishioners leave behind a church and a Seminary trained pastor may reflect the fact that Seminaries, while great for learning about the Bible, are not so great in preparing soon to be church leaders to take on deep social and psychological problems among the people of the congregation. So, people leave because they feel these pastors don't know how to be helpful or relevant to the lives being lived on a concrete level. Sad, but true.

For instance, teaching a congregation about the importance of the conceptual nature of the Trinity does little to affect their divorces, their addictions, their job losses, their mental illnesses, etc. Nor does throwing a bible verse or two at people's problems really solve anything, and people are quick to realize this.

In my opinion, those are jobs for trained and licensed therapists, not pastors.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In my opinion, those are jobs for trained and licensed therapists, not pastors.

In the ecclesia where they are living as they did in ACTS, EPHESIANS , PHILIPPIANS, and so on,
the older more experienced believers handle this
and
train the younger ones how to as well,
immersed in prayer and obedience to YHWH and HIS WORD;
as YHWH says to,
as Y'SHUA taught the disciples to.

As written, the believers following Y'SHUA MESSIAH KING HEALER SAVIOR have no business going to or before the worldly counselors or pagan judges.

Of course, finding a group of trained disciples might take a while.

 

[Paidiske]

I think a good seminary has to be more than the classroom and the academic learning. My college was very clear that although we needed to earn the academic awards, that was in the context of a practising community of faith. We prayed together twice a day. We took quiet days and retreats. We were expected to reflect on and integrate what we were learning in the classroom with what we were experiencing on field placements. What was aimed at was an engagement of both mind and heart, which formed the whole person for ministry.

I would not be happy about an academic programme delivered in isolation. It would make it much harder for the student, who would then have to work at all the other things on their own and without support.

(And yes, it's important to know the limits of your own competence and work collaboratively with other professionals in the care of your congregation).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In my opinion, those are jobs for trained and licensed therapists, not pastors.

I would agree. But, pastors should be equipped, at minimum, to be able to recognize when the limits of pastoral counseling have been reached and the need for more professional help begins. As it is, many pastors just ignore those limits and insist that the Bible, prayer, faith and repentance will solve most personal and social problems. Unfortunately, my own family experienced this kind of thing first hand.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I would agree. But, pastors should be equipped, at minimum, to be able to recognize when the limits of pastoral counseling have been reached and the need for more professional help begins. As it is, many pastors just ignore those limits and insist that the Bible, prayer, faith and repentance will solve most personal and social problems. Unfortunately, my own family experienced this kind of thing first hand.

Oh okay, if that's what you were saying than yes, I agree.

 

[mikedsjr]

Some of the reasons parishioners leave behind a church and a Seminary trained pastor may reflect the fact that Seminaries, while great for learning about the Bible, are not so great in preparing soon to be church leaders to take on deep social and psychological problems among the people of the congregation. So, people leave because they feel these pastors don't know how to be helpful or relevant to the lives being lived on a concrete level. Sad, but true.

For instance, teaching a congregation about the importance of the conceptual nature of the Trinity does little to affect their divorces, their addictions, their job losses, their mental illnesses, etc. Nor does throwing a bible verse or two at people's problems really solve anything, and people are quick to realize this.

Such a postmodern Protestant answer.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Such a postmodern Protestant answer.

No, it's true. Some pastors know nothing but the Bible, and they don't have the academic nor empathic chops to really fulfill the call of the pastor.

However, I wouldn't say that ALL pastors (in the U.S.) are ill-equipped to care for their parishioners, just a large chunk of them.