Is scripture the highest authority?

[Berean777]

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[Wolf_Says]

Do you power to move moutains?

What does that have to do with the Keys of Heaven? No I do not have a power to move mountains, nor (to my knowledge) does anybody currently on earth.

Once again, you claim to also have the Keys to Heaven. My question to you is this, does that mean that people can go THROUGH YOU to get to heaven? And you you have to power to PREVENT someone from reaching heaven?

The answer I already know; no. Jesus came down to earth, and formed His Church. It is through His Church that we can reach heaven. It was the Church who put the Bible together in the 4th century and gave it to the world, and without this you nor I would have it and know that these books and letters are divinely inspired.

 

[Berean777]

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven

The keys were given to all the disciples.

 

[Berean777]

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[Wolf_Says]

Where does it say that Peter was the only one given those keys?

Matthew 16:18-19, where Jesus changes Simon's name to Kephas (Peter) and then says on this Kephas (rock) I will build My Church and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, and whoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The word and is very important, because it is referring to the keys and Jesus giving this power to Peter. Peter did not have this power, but was given it by Jesus and it is only through Jesus that he has this.

I asked you to show me where it shows in the Bible other-wise.

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven

The keys were given to all the disciples.

They received the Holy Spirit, NOT the Keys to the kingdom of Heaven. They were given the power to forgive sins, NOT the power to allow or disallow someone from entering into the kingdom of Heaven, that was given to Peter alone.

Otherwise Jesus would have said instead of Keys, Holy Spirit in Matthew 16:19, He did not.

 

[Berean777]

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[Berean777]

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[Berean777]

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[Berean777]

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[Berean777]

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[Berean777]

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[Wolf_Says]

People who don't know Christ can certainly be given access by me at their choosing after I preach to them Christ in their conversion.

Okay, so you believe that you are now the Pope? You can certainly introduce people to the Bible and therefore the idea of Jesus, but you do not have the power to bind them in heaven, and you never will. Neither will I. I cannot tell somebody that they are certainly going to heaven. The Doctors of the Church (some of the most brilliant minds of Christianity) completely disagree with you.

The Keys to the Kingdom is tied to recieving the Holy Ghost where we become disciples of Christ and heirs to the heavenly kingdom and if so heirs then the keys or right of access is in our possession.

Wrong, nowhere is this stated in the Bible. Let me quote St Augustine of Hippo, on the matter of keys "Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they refuse to believe that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church."
St Augustine of Hippo is one of the Doctors of the Church, and a brilliant mind indeed.
St Thomas Aquinas says "According to the Philosopher (De Anima ii, text. 33), "powers are defined from their acts." Wherefore, since the key is a kind of power, it should be defined from its act or use, and reference to the act should include its object from which it takes its species, and the mode of acting whereby the power is shown to be well-ordered. Now the act of the spiritual power is to open heaven, not absolutely, since it is already open, as stated above (1, ad 1), but for this or that man; and this cannot be done in an orderly manner without due consideration of the worthiness of the one to be admitted to heaven. Hence the aforesaid definition of the key gives the genus, viz. "power," the subject of the power, viz. the "ecclesiastical judge," and the act, viz. "of excluding or admitting," corresponding to the two acts of a material key which are to open and shut; the object of which act is referred to in the words "from the kingdom," and the mode, in the words, "worthy" and "unworthy," because account is taken of the worthiness or unworthiness of those on whom the act is exercised."

Peter is not the only one with the keys. Keys were not given to Peter then but were given to him after Jesus breathed on him and the other disciples the Holy Ghost.

Yes Peter was the only one, because it is stated in Matthew 16:19. How was Peter not given the Keys at this point?

 

[Berean777]

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[Wolf_Says]

See how much you are relying on the written word as the authority to validate yoir claim. Now please answer the question....

Is scripture the highest authority to you?

Already answered, Yes and No. Yes because it is the divinely inspired written word of God, which was put together by the Catholic Church in the 4th century and given to the world. No because Jesus did not come down to give us the Bible, he came down to establish His Church.

I am not "relying" on the Bible, I am mearly using the common ground between protestants and Catholics to argue my point, because if I used anything else you will dismiss it because it "is not in the Bible." Because "if it is not in the Bible, it is not true."

This is what the denominational establishments have done by ademately quoting scripture and misinterpreting it for political reasons and then when asking them if they regard it as the highest authority they will plainly deny it on the next breath.

I am by no means misinterpreting it, because I am giving you the interpretations of the Doctors of the Church. If you claim I am misinterpreting the scripture, you also claim that the Doctors of the Church also misinterpreted it.

There is no succession of authority passed down to a head figure of an establishment. It would be more believable to believe in Santa than someone pretending to be the highest authority on earth pretending to be Christ himself.

Nobody is pretending to be Christ, except you in claiming that people can come through you.

The Pope is the head of the earthly Church that Jesus Christ started, and Jesus is the head of the Church completely. There is no higher authority than Jesus, and on earth Jesus established His Church, NOT the Bible.

 

[Berean777]

Sorry to dishearten you friend. I will humbly bow out. My course is Christ centred.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Sorry to dishearten you friend. I will humbly bow out. My course is Christ centred.

If it was Christ centered, you would understand that Christ made a Church on earth, so that people could reach paradise. That Church is the Catholic Church. He did not establish the Bible, and if you live by the Bible alone, you only have half the truth.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I disagree. If X is dependent on Y, then Y has more authority than X. The Bible is dependent on God, therefore God has more authority than the Bible. God isn't the Bible, just as God isn't his words.

Read the thread and stay on the topic. The thread asks

Is Scripture The Highest Authority We Now Have On Earth?

Read some more to realize we are discussing sources of incontrovertible spiritual truth. We are not discussing how scripture or God's word got its authority. It should be obvious that it came from God. It should be obvious that Jesus/God ascended into heaven. Therefore God does not have a physical presence on earth anymore. We do have his word though.

Let me also add that the authority to rule in the Church is not the thread question. Just because elders consult on secular disputes in the church does not make them highest authority in spiritual matters.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Read the thread and stay on the topic. The thread asks

Is Scripture The Highest Authority We Now Have On Earth?

Read some more to realize we are discussing sources of incontrovertible spiritual truth. We are not discussing how scripture or God's word got its authority. It should be obvious that it came from God. It should be obvious that Jesus/God ascended into heaven. Therefore God does not have a physical presence on earth anymore. We do have his word though.

Let me also add that the authority to rule in the Church is not the thread question. Just because elders consult on secular disputes in the church does not make them highest authority in spiritual matters.

I will kindly respond, again. Yes and No. Now please, let me explain.

Yes because we know that the Bible is the divinely inspired written word of God. However, how do we know that these writings were divinely inspired? How do we know that these are true? Who told us?

Before the Bible was put together as 1 book, there were 25 gospels floating around all claiming to be divinely inspired. There was also an Acts of Polite and more. Somebody had to decide which books were true and which were false because there was no scripture besides OT to base them on, and even that was in disputes between the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Bible.

This leads to my seconds answer: No, because it was the Church that Jesus established when He came down from heaven, that decided that the 73 books of the Bible were divinely inspired. That Church was the Catholic Church.
Without that, there would be no Bible as we know of it today.

So to conclude, if you have the Bible, you have HALF of the truth. The rest lies in the Catholic Church, the one started by Jesus Christ himself. If you reject this, you reject the rest of the truth and the channels that Jesus put into place to help us all get into Heaven.

 

[Berean777]

If it was Christ centered, you would understand that Christ made a Church on earth, so that people could reach paradise. That Church is the Catholic Church. He did not establish the Bible, and if you live by the Bible alone, you only have half the truth.

God bless you and the Catholic Christian community.

I leave you in peace.

 

[Wolf_Says]

God bless you and the Catholic Christian community.

I leave you in peace. Please don't be upset at me, I only want what is best to all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I am not upset and I apologize if I ever came across that way. When I debate I tend to come across as cold because I prefer cold facts over feelings.

Nobody on this forum could make me upset unless that said something bad about my wife Then, I am sorry, but the hammer comes down hard then.

I enjoyed our debate, and peace with you as well. I pray that God makes your life wonderful. If there are any questions about Catholicism then please, feel free to hit me up. I am more than happy to reply and give some insight.