Is regeneration dependent upon human will?

[Hammster]

May I ask what your goal is Hammster? This back & forth stuff seems more like an interrogation than a conversation. What are you trying to get at? Maybe we can actually talk about it.

I'm trying to get at the truth. You made some statements about regeneration. I questioning them and giving you a chance to explain yourself.

If you'd rather, I could just say that your position is inconsistent because you said on one hand that the unregenerate does not want to change, but on the other you have said that he might want to change. If your first position is true, the unregenerate will not want to change unless he first becomes regenerate.

But asking a question takes me less time to get to the same result.

 

[dysert]

I'm trying to get at the truth. You made some statements about regeneration. I questioning them and giving you a chance to explain yourself.

If you'd rather, I could just say that your position is inconsistent because you said on one hand that the unregenerate does not want to change, but on the other you have said that he might want to change. If your first position is true, the unregenerate will not want to change unless he first becomes regenerate.

But asking a question takes me less time to get to the same result.

Ok, great. We're both trying to get to the truth .

The easy answer is that I believe what Romans 7 teaches. The hard answer is putting into words what Romans 7 teaches. My current belief (subject to change) is that we start off as unregenerate men. God calls, we answer, He then gives us faith to accept Him as Lord and Savior. There are now two "men": the unregenerate one and the new one. The unregenerate one hasn't changed. He still has no interest in godly things. The new man, who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, slowly conforms to the image of Christ.

These two "men" are in a battle. The one that wins is the one we feed the most. But regardless of the earthly battle, since we're saved, we can rest assured that heaven is now our home.

 

[Hammster]

Ok, great. We're both trying to get to the truth .

The easy answer is that I believe what Romans 7 teaches. The hard answer is putting into words what Romans 7 teaches. My current belief (subject to change) is that we start off as unregenerate men. God calls, we answer, He then gives us faith to accept Him as Lord and Savior. There are now two "men": the unregenerate one and the new one. The unregenerate one hasn't changed. He still has no interest in godly things. The new man, who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, slowly conforms to the image of Christ.

These two "men" are in a battle. The one that wins is the one we feed the most. But regardless of the earthly battle, since we're saved, we can rest assured that heaven is now our home.

I'm confused by this. When do we become regenerate?

 

[dysert]

I'm confused by this. When do we become regenerate?

I would use the term "justified" instead of "regenerate" (the latter of which does not occur in any Bible translation I'm familiar with). We are justified at the moment in time that we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.

 

[Hammster]

I would use the term "justified" instead of "regenerate" (the latter of which does not occur in any Bible translation I'm familiar with). We are justified at the moment in time that we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.

But we aren't talking about justification. We are talking about regeneration (being born again) and when it occurs.

 

[dysert]

But we aren't talking about justification. We are talking about regeneration (being born again) and when it occurs.

In my vocabulary, being born again is the same as saying we have been justified. It's a point-in-time event (unlike sanctification, for example). Are we just dealing with semantics, or is there a real difference?

 

[Hammster]

In my vocabulary, being born again is the same as saying we have been justified. It's a point-in-time event (unlike sanctification, for example). Are we just dealing with semantics, or is there a real difference?

There is a real different. Regeneration is spiritual. Justification is legal.

 

[dysert]

There is a real different. Regeneration is spiritual. Justification is legal.

Ok, but I still think they happen at the same time. Do you think they happen at different times?

 

[Hammster]

Ok, but I still think they happen at the same time. Do you think they happen at different times?

Whether or not they happen at the same time isn't relevant, though they probably do in most cases. The question is, which logically (and scripturally) comes first.

We are justified by faith, which is good and pleasing. You said that the unregenerate doesn't want to change. I would think that placing your faith in Christ would be a change for the better. So it would leave us to believe that regeneration is necessary in order for us to want to believe.

 

[dysert]

Whether or not they happen at the same time isn't relevant, though they probably do in most cases. The question is, which logically (and scripturally) comes first.

We are justified by faith, which is good and pleasing. You said that the unregenerate doesn't want to change. I would think that placing your faith in Christ would be a change for the better. So it would leave us to believe that regeneration is necessary in order for us to want to believe.

Well, if they happen at the same time (as I think they do), then the question of "which logically (and scripturally) comes first" is a non-sequitur.

I agree that placing your faith in Christ is a change for the better, but the decision to do that follows God's call and His equipping the person to do that. We wouldn't do it on our own (imo).

 

[Hammster]

Well, if they happen at the same time (as I think they do), then the question of "which logically (and scripturally) comes first" is a non-sequitur.

I agree that placing your faith in Christ is a change for the better, but the decision to do that follows God's call and His equipping the person to do that. We wouldn't do it on our own (imo).

It's not a non sequitur. It would only be a non sequitur if they were the same thing. They are not. All I can see now is that you are backtracking from your previous position.

 

[Hammster]

Well, if they happen at the same time (as I think they do), then the question of "which logically (and scripturally) comes first" is a non-sequitur.

I agree that placing your faith in Christ is a change for the better, but the decision to do that follows God's call and His equipping the person to do that. We wouldn't do it on our own (imo).

Would these people be described as sheep or goats in scripture? Lost or found? Fruit-bearing trees, or other?

 

[dysert]

It's not a non sequitur. It would only be a non sequitur if they were the same thing. They are not. All I can see now is that you are backtracking from your previous position.

Let me try again. Assume that regeneration and justification happen at the same time. It's illogical to ask which came first. That's all I'm saying in my first paragraph.

If it seems I'm backtracking then so be it. (I honestly don't think I am.) Now that we're having a conversation things are becoming clearer. I'll stick with my second paragraph of the previous post unless I become convinced that it needs changing.

 

[Cush]

Double Post

 

[Cush]

Regeneration precedes faith.

To answer your question, absolutely not.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

John 3:3, 3:5 - "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

My emphasis is on the word "UNLESS." The word unless in Jesus' teaching signals a universally necessary condition for seeing and entering the kingdom of God. Rebirth, then, is an essential part of Christianity, without it, entrance into God's kingdom is impossible.

See Deuteronomy 29:4 - But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.

God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), immediately and infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose a renewed heart (the existence of spiritual life) which believes.


Regeneration of Ezekiel 36:25-27 - 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a]
Regeneration is the theological term used to describe rebirth. It refers to a new generating, a new genesis, a new beginning. It is more than "turning over a new leaf"; it marks the beginning of a new life in a radically renewed person. Peters speaks of believers having "been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God" - 1 Peter 1:23.



God bless,
Cush

 

[Hammster]

Let me try again. Assume that regeneration and justification happen at the same time. It's illogical to ask which came first. That's all I'm saying in my first paragraph.

If it seems I'm backtracking then so be it. (I honestly don't think I am.) Now that we're having a conversation things are becoming clearer. I'll stick with my second paragraph of the previous post unless I become convinced that it needs changing.

It is not illogical to ask which happened first of one is dependent upon the other.

So let's try this. Why would someone suddenly believe something they found to be untrue (the gospel)? Or better yet, what would make someone love somebody they previously hated?

Justification, or regeneration?

 

[Cush]

It is not illogical to ask which happened first of one is dependent upon the other.

So let's try this. Why would someone suddenly believe something they found to be untrue (the gospel)? Or better yet, what would make someone love somebody they previously hated?

Justification, or regeneration?

Regeneration is unto Faith; Faith is unto Justification.

As to why certain people (the elect) believe:

John 10:26 says, you do not believe because you are not my sheep. Notice, it doesn't say you are not my sheep because you do not believe. It says you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

God bless,
Cush