Is music piracy stealing?

[Blackwater]

Well, looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter.

 

[RDKirk]

Well, looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter.

It should be pointed out that governments that are signatories of the Berne Conventions also disagree with you.

 

[This Old Tent]

Well, looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter.

I think that has obviously been established.

I'm not going to try to get you to agree with my perspective Blackwater. I genuinely wish to understand how a christian (not a worldly non believer) justifies music piracy with regard to musicians who are trying to sell their work...who are not OK with having it pirated. I have read all your comments about piracy, and I get it...But it seems to be coming from a very worldly perspective. If it does not upset you too much I would love to hear your take on this topic from a CHRISTIAN perspective rather than a worldly one. If this causes you to get upset and angry I apologise...Lets please be civil. I'm not trying to goad you on...I honestly want to know your Christian perspective.

 

[Blackwater]

It should be pointed out that governments that are signatories of the Berne Conventions also disagree with you.

Oh, boo hoo, government disagrees with me. Do you actually think I care? I also disagree with so many governments for so many different reasons, it just wouldn't be nice if they didn't disagree with me for something.

I think that has obviously been established.

I'm not going to try to get you to agree with my perspective Blackwater. I genuinely wish to understand how a christian (not a worldly non believer) justifies music piracy with regard to musicians who are trying to sell their work...who are not OK with having it pirated. I have read all your comments about piracy, and I get it...But it seems to be coming from a very worldly perspective. If it does not upset you too much I would love to hear your take on this topic from a CHRISTIAN perspective rather than a worldly one. If this causes you to get upset and angry I apologise...Lets please be civil. I'm not trying to goad you on...I honestly want to know your Christian perspective.

I don't really have much else to say.

But actually, when you think about it, christian artists should, from time to time, give away some of their songs... if that's gonna spread the word. My opinion.

And, as a christian, I really don't think I'm stealing anything with piracy. I am not stealing physical CDs nor am I copying them and selling them for my own profit (now THAT is a theft).

 

[SilverBlade]

How do you define 'stealing' with downloading music?.

Legally speaking, anyone who has been taken to court over downloading music or movies have been charged with Copyright Infringement, but not theft. Curious, isn't it? The courts don't call it theft or stealing.

Also, each country has different rules regarding downloading. Some countries don't care and actually allow it (or simply, it isn't illegal). Other countries (like Canada) has put levies on certain kinds of recordable media (like CD-R's) that is used to compensate artists for 'lost' sales, these levies were later applied to iPods, hard drives, and other forms of recordable media. Also, in Canada (where I live, yay), the RCMP have actually stated that they won't go after people who pirate music, and also, some countries (not sure which one, Canada is one I think), only classify 'pirates' as those who sell music as their own, but do not classify 'pirates' as those who simply download. Anybody in Canada that has been caught with piracy are always caught on the upload, not the download.

So, even if it is theft (though under all courts, it's copyright infringement), where is the line drawn? If someone in Canada downloaded content originated in the U.S, whose copyright laws supersede who's in the eyes of Yahweh? The original country, or the country where the downloader lives?

 

[PaxThroughX]

I personally don't think downloading music for free on say.. youtube is stealing because why would the same Google that said it is to protect bands' rights if their new Mozilla program comes out with add-ons to do just that?!? Yeah makes no sense. Furthermore, sites like Aimini.net isn't stealing if someone is basically posting the song or "sharing," it.

After reading BlackWater's comments, which I basically I agree with, it is pointless to discuss this matter.
Besides, "Without music, life would be a mistake"
- Friedrich Nietzche

 

[This Old Tent]

How do you define 'stealing' with downloading music?.

Legally speaking, anyone who has been taken to court over downloading music or movies have been charged with Copyright Infringement, but not theft. Curious, isn't it? The courts don't call it theft or stealing.

Also, each country has different rules regarding downloading. Some countries don't care and actually allow it (or simply, it isn't illegal). Other countries (like Canada) has put levies on certain kinds of recordable media (like CD-R's) that is used to compensate artists for 'lost' sales, these levies were later applied to iPods, hard drives, and other forms of recordable media. Also, in Canada (where I live, yay), the RCMP have actually stated that they won't go after people who pirate music, and also, some countries (not sure which one, Canada is one I think), only classify 'pirates' as those who sell music as their own, but do not classify 'pirates' as those who simply download. Anybody in Canada that has been caught with piracy are always caught on the upload, not the download.

So, even if it is theft (though under all courts, it's copyright infringement), where is the line drawn? If someone in Canada downloaded content originated in the U.S, whose copyright laws supersede who's in the eyes of Yahweh? The original country, or the country where the downloader lives?

Interesting points. I think all of this is very grey from a worldly point of view. However, from a Christian point of view I think it becomes far more simple and clear. It's as simple as "love your neighbor as you love yourself". Treat each other with respect. If you want to sell your wears and I like them, as achristian I should pay for them. If you want to give them away then it's perfectly fine for me to accept them for free. It's soooo simple. Love one another.

 

[RDKirk]

How do you define 'stealing' with downloading music?.

Legally speaking, anyone who has been taken to court over downloading music or movies have been charged with Copyright Infringement, but not theft. Curious, isn't it? The courts don't call it theft or stealing.

Also, each country has different rules regarding downloading. Some countries don't care and actually allow it (or simply, it isn't illegal). Other countries (like Canada) has put levies on certain kinds of recordable media (like CD-R's) that is used to compensate artists for 'lost' sales, these levies were later applied to iPods, hard drives, and other forms of recordable media. Also, in Canada (where I live, yay), the RCMP have actually stated that they won't go after people who pirate music, and also, some countries (not sure which one, Canada is one I think), only classify 'pirates' as those who sell music as their own, but do not classify 'pirates' as those who simply download. Anybody in Canada that has been caught with piracy are always caught on the upload, not the download.

So, even if it is theft (though under all courts, it's copyright infringement), where is the line drawn? If someone in Canada downloaded content originated in the U.S, whose copyright laws supersede who's in the eyes of Yahweh? The original country, or the country where the downloader lives?

As a Christian, the line is drawn at the fact that if the musician is offering his music for sale, then you are wrong to take it in any way without paying him for it. Shenanigans over the wording of the human laws does not change the fact that you took without paying what was being offered for sale.

 

[ezeric]

It is stealing, and in your hearts (those that pretend it isn't wrong) you already know its wrong that is why you try to 'justify' your position.

Love does NOT insist on its own way. 1 Corinthians 13:5
And by 'taking' what people are 'selling' you are not acting in LOVE.

And if it isn't LOVE - then it is self/selfish

And why is it called piracy anyway?
What does "piracy" even mean?

If you would spend 2 minutes you would know - look it up, as the term is even condemning.
hint: it comes from Greek peiratēs : pirate

If you have ANY doubt; Its a slam dunk if you just look up the word.

-eric

 

[FreedByte]

I'm going to have to agree with and disagree with both sides of this argument. For starters, making or obtaining a digital copy of something is rarely stealing, it's copying. Granted, it is an unauthorized copy, but it is copying nonetheless. Despite the fact that obtaining a digital copy is not stealing, it is still sinful. Romans 13 clearly says to obey the laws of the government that you are under (unless of course it tells you to do something that goes against your faith).

You might be surprised to know that I am actually a non-moderate libertarian / anarchist (leaning mutualist). Many Christian anarchists recognize that although Romans 13 does not tell us that we have to support the existence of a government, it does tell us to obey the laws of the government under which we live so long as those laws don't cause us to violate our faith. Blackwater does not seem to be this type of Christian anarchist. Most Christian anarchists are pacifists, applying "turn the other cheek" to government actions that are evil and forceful, like taxation: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, ... " So, despite the fact that Christian anarchists don't accept that copying is stealing just because a government says so, they still obey the laws of the government that don't conflict with their faith because doing otherwise would be sinful.

 

[SilverBlade]

I'm going to have to agree with and disagree with both sides of this argument. For starters, making or obtaining a digital copy of something is rarely stealing, it's copying. Granted, it is an unauthorized copy, but it is copying nonetheless. Despite the fact that obtaining a digital copy is not stealing, it is still sinful. Romans 13 clearly says to obey the laws of the government that you are under (unless of course it tells you to do something that goes against your faith).

You might be surprised to know that I am actually a hardline libertarian / anarchist (leaning mutualist). Many Christian anarchists recognize that although Romans 13 does not tell us that we have to support the existence of a government, it does tell us to obey the laws of the government under which we live so long as those laws don't cause us to violate our faith. Blackwater does not seem to be this type of Christian anarchist. Most Christian anarchists are pacifists, applying "turn the other cheek" to government actions that are evil and forceful, like taxation: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, ... " So, despite the fact that Christian anarchists don't accept that copying is stealing just because a government says so, they still obey the laws of the government that don't conflict with their faith because doing otherwise would be sinful.

From following technology podcasts for nearly 6 years, each and every time a person has been caught with digital piracy has always been charged with copyright infringement *and* they have always been caught by uploading or sharing on bittorrent, but never on downloading.

The rules in Canada (so far) allow Canadians to download copyrighted content, but it is illegal to distribute it. It is only in the distribution that people get charged in Canada, but never get charged or caught when downloading only.

So what happens when that law changes to Canadians? Does previously acquired content count as 'legal' since it was acquired before the change in the law? What does Yahweh do with that? Since (before) Canadians could download freely and it was legal, but then it's not...does he expect Canadians who are Christian to suddenly remove all of the (now) 'illegal' files?

 

[FreedByte]

Does previously acquired content count as 'legal' since it was acquired before the change in the law?

I would imagine so, unless the Canadian government declared that it wasn't (however unenforceable that declaration would be). In which case, we would be required to submit to the government's forceful action.

 

[Se7ski]

Is music piracy stealing?
Yeah, I think it is. Musicians work hard to make quality music and it's not as easy to protect as something on a store shelf. But since it takes so much effort then it should be treated the same.
I mean it's mostly about conscience and how it affects other people. When people pirate music then that just means that the next muxic CD I buy will just cost more. Stealing is part of what makes prices go up to make up for the losses.

 

[RDKirk]

From following technology podcasts for nearly 6 years, each and every time a person has been caught with digital piracy has always been charged with copyright infringement *and* they have always been caught by uploading or sharing on bittorrent, but never on downloading.

Theft and copyright infringement are two different offenses. People on both sides of the argument tend to conflate them, but they are two different things.

If someone offers something for sale and you take it without paying, that's theft. The fact that it wasn't tangible is irrelevant. For instance, sneaking into a concert or movie theater without paying for admission is still theft.

 

[FreedByte]

Theft and copyright infringement are two different offenses. People on both sides of the argument tend to conflate them, but they are two different things.

If someone offers something for sale and you take it without paying, that's theft. The fact that it wasn't tangible is irrelevant. For instance, sneaking into a concert or movie theater without paying for admission is still theft.

but you're not taking anything, you're copying it. I'm not saying that creating an unauthorized copy isn't sinful where it's illegal, but it's not stealing.

 

[RDKirk]

but you're not taking anything, you're copying it. I'm not saying that creating an unauthorized copy isn't sinful where it's illegal, but it's not stealing.

I gave you the analogous situation: Sneaking into a movie or concert without buying a ticket. The artist is selling the performance experience, and you did, indeed, steal the performance experience, whether it's a movie ticket or a surrepitiously downloaded song.

Why is this a debate in a Christian forum? You know what the artist was selling, you know his expectation was to be paid, you know that quid pro quo was not met, and you know the artist would not approve. We're not splitting legal hairs in a courtroom, we're talking about morality under Christ.

 

[FreedByte]

I gave you the analogous situation: Sneaking into a movie or concert without buying a ticket. The artist is selling the performance experience, and you did, indeed, steal the performance experience, whether it's a movie ticket or a surrepitiously downloaded song.

No, while both actions are immoral, only one is stealing. Stealing a movie ticket is not copying, while downloading an unauthorized copy of a song does not involve stealing. Stealing involves taking something from someone else, but nothing has been taken from them. You have simply made yourself a copy of what they had.

Why is this a debate in a Christian forum? You know what the artist was selling, you know his expectation was to be paid, you know that quid pro quo was not met, and you know the artist would not approve. We're not splitting legal hairs in a courtroom, we're talking about morality under Christ.

The reason this is a debate is because you think we are debating the morality of downloading unauthorized copies of music. We're not, I agree with you that it's immoral. The question we are addressing is "Is music piracy stealing?". Although music piracy is immoral, it is not stealing.

 

[RDKirk]

No, while both actions are immoral, .

In a Christian forum, this as far as we need to go.

 

[FreedByte]

In a Christian forum, this as far as we need to go.

So you are saying that we cannot talk about things that aren't questions of morality? The question that was asked (and the topic of this thread) is "Is music piracy stealing?", and my answer is "no".

"Is music piracy moral?" is a different question because music piracy is immoral, just not because it is stealing.

If this was a thread that asked the question "Is cursing lying?" and I said "no", but it's immoral for different reasons, would you say "saying that it's immoral is as far as we need to go"?

 

[RDKirk]

So you are saying that we cannot talk about things that aren't questions of morality? The question that was asked (and the topic of this thread) is "Is music piracy stealing?", and my answer is "no".

"Is music piracy moral?" is a different question because music piracy is immoral, just not because it is stealing.

If this was a thread that asked the question "Is cursing lying?" and I said "no", but it's immoral for different reasons, would you say "saying that it's immoral is as far as we need to go"?

The purpose of the question was to determine if it would be acceptable practice for a Christian.

We can continue to debate the semantics, but the OP was to determine its morality.

And I'd still call it "stealing" because it is still making an acquisition without making the required payment. There is nothing new about the fact that nothing tangible was taken--duplicating devices have been available for a century, and making an unauthorized duplicate in order to avoid paying the required price has always been considered stealing.