Is music piracy stealing?

[Ian Ferrin]

IMO it is.

I realize many, including some Christians think it's fine.

I'm a Christian musician. I'm a hobbyist w/ a few published songs. I've got a day job and there's no way I'll go on tour any time in the near future. For me, the ideas of p2p and piracy are anathema. I absolutely hate the idea that music should be free (unless the artist wants it to be free) and I cherish the idea of intellectual property.

I'll never make money off the trinkets - the t-shirts and the coffee cups. Because I don't tour. I'm not really keen to be a trinket salesman anyway.

What do you think? Do you think p2p and the notion that pirate downloading of copyrighted material is fine?

Peace,

In Christ,

Ian

 

[Sketcher]

I don't think it's OK. However, the ease of doing it is such that musicians need a new business model.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

I don't think it's OK. However, the ease of doing it is such that musicians need a new business model.

The only new business model I've seen people propose is going on tour and selling trinkets along w/ their music. It's a pretty crummy business model. Especially for the recording musician. Got any better ideas?

 

[Sketcher]

Not really, but I'm not a musician. I haven't put any decent amount of thought into it.

With visual art, at least you can control the highest-quality copies, or you know who to go after. You then release and watermark lower-quality Internet copies only, if that.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

Thanks Sketcher.

I'm not sure there is a better business model. The musicians that make a living at it tour and sell the t-shirts. There ARE some that sell a lot of background music, advertising, corporate video work, but not that many.

I've heard folks that do a lot of Pirating argue that artists aren't hurt by the practice.

But the reality is that tons of lower level artists aren't making a living or even a partial living that used to. Not to mention the secretaries and janitors in the music businesses that have gone out of business. And IMO the core driver of this change is piracy. I just don't think it's right!

Thanks for your good response,

Ian

 

[Blackwater]

As long as someone doesn't take a song from another band and release it as their own, it's not stealing.

I've heard folks that do a lot of Pirating argue that artists aren't hurt by the practice.

Of course they aren't hurt by the practice. If pirates didn't get their songs "illegally", they probably wouldn't get them anyway so I don't see how they hurt their profit in any way. Unless someone burned them on a CD and sold them on a flea market or something.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

As long as someone doesn't take a song from another band and release it as their own, it's not stealing.

I'm not aware of a single copyright law anywhere in the world that agrees with you.

Are you saying it's impossible for consumers to steal? Do you think pirating is moral?

Many bands don't want their songs illegally downloaded. Is it still OK to download their songs if they don't want you to?

If pirates didn't get their songs "illegally", they probably wouldn't get them anyway so I don't see how they hurt their profit in any way.

Then why is the music industry on such hard times since pirating started?

 

[The Theory]

It's, perhaps, semantics but illegal downloads aren't stealing. However, it IS illegal infringement on copyright/IP/etc. While the legal jargon is different, the end result is similar. Stealing is going into Best Buy and sneaking a CD into your trenchcoat and walking out.

That said, just because there is a disconnect in semantics doesn't make illegal downloads ok. Just because the legal distinction between physical theft and copyright infringement (and the Bible says "do not steal" not "do not impune on copyright") doesn't make it morally ambiguous.

Regardless, in terms of a "business model", here is what I recommend as a consumer. I don't tend to do illegal downloads. That said, I can't afford to buy much music, so I have to be convinced that I really want any purchase that I make. Bands that I have purchased music from in the last few years fall into two distinct categories:

1. A band that I'm already a hardcore fan of
2. A band that has free (or pay what you want) releases on their Bandcamp site that I've downloaded, loved, so purchased their other albums.

Especially as radio becomes more and more about moving music from The Major Labels, releasing a couple of good EPs for free is a great way to garner attention, make some fans, and create a customer base for full length releases.

Also, here is a great article by Derek Webb about this:
DEREK WEBB

 

[Ian Ferrin]

These artists are a few who have asked fans not to download their stuff w/o paying for it:

Chris Tomlin
Matt Maher
Steven Curtis Chapman
Charlie Peacock
Jeremy Camp
The Supertones
Project 86
Stacie Orrico
Shaun Groves
Oh, Sleeper

Legality aside, is it Moral to download their stuff for free when they've asked you not to?

 

[Blackwater]

I'm not aware of a single copyright law anywhere in the world that agrees with you.

I really don't give a damn about those petty laws.

Are you saying it's impossible for consumers to steal?

I did NOT say that. They can still steal a CD.

Then why is the music industry on such hard times since pirating started?

I really doubt that's the reason.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

Thanks for your honest answers Blackwater. I notice you didn't respond to perhaps the hardest question:

Many bands don't want their songs downloaded without paying. Is it still OK to download their songs for free if they don't want you to?

-Peace

 

[Blackwater]

Thanks for your honest answers Blackwater. I notice you didn't respond to perhaps the hardest question:

Many bands don't want their songs downloaded without paying. Is it still OK to download their songs for free if they don't want you to?

-Peace

Well... If they ask nicely...

 

[kds1986]

I believe it is,and it has only gotten worse.

 

[JohnnyBlack]

If the artist or label has not made a free download of the file it is stealing. I'm a muscian and songwriter myself and are aware of just how big a problem it is. As artists we all need to get with the times and make it as easy as possible for our fans to buy our music through online services like itunes. People are becoming more inclined to the idea of being able to quickly go online and pay 99c for a track they like. Ultimately, it lies with each individual to make up their own mind what's acceptable.

 

[Bernoulli123]

I think downloading music from pirate sites is morally wrong. You are basically giving the pirate site the leverage to sell advertising of which none of that $$$ goes to the artists who produce the content you are there for. If an artist wants to give away free downloads that is obviously OK. But if the artist has their music for sale and you go around their back to some pirate site to download it for free then that is stealing. I think the problem is, the downloaded MP3 has no tangible quality... You can not hold it or see it etc... If it was a tangible item this thread would not even be here, because then the thread would be asking if stealing is OK. Obviously stealing is not OK. Musicians invest real $$$ into their craft and spend real time making quality recordings for the world to enjoy. The least we can do is throw them a measly dollar for a download. It's practically nothing for the listener to spend a buck per song but it is everything to the musicians who rely on some income for their hard work. How would we like it if all the sudden people on the net could rob us of what we do for our living? Would that be OK? Naw... I don't think so.

 

[obrolord]

There was a study in a country that legalized Pirating off the internet. Over the course of a year that showed that piracy from the internet being legalized did not affect the sales at all. The people who pirate music are the ones who had no intention on pay the songs or movies in the first place. So personally I do not believe it is stealing.

 

[Blackwater]

There was a study in a country that legalized Pirating off the internet. Over the course of a year that showed that piracy from the internet being legalized did not affect the sales at all. The people who pirate music are the ones who had no intention on pay the songs or movies in the first place. So personally I do not believe it is stealing.

There we go, finally someone who understands.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

There was a study in a country that legalized Pirating off the internet. Over the course of a year that showed that piracy from the internet being legalized did not affect the sales at all.

Are you saying that a secular study about sales justifies a moral behavior?

The people who pirate music are the ones who had no intention on pay the songs or movies in the first place. So personally I do not believe it is stealing.

That sounds like you're saying that since some people pirate w/o any moral qualms, that it's OK for everyone else who's unsure?

That really sounds to me like you're holding up pirates as role models?

 

[Bernoulli123]

The question is, if an artist has music downloads FOR SALE on various sites like itunes, do you really think they think it's OK for people to go to pirate websites and download it for free? As a christian, we should be treating our neighbor as we would treat ourself. If you were selling something and I used ulterior methods to get it for free then would you not feel like I was stealing from you? It is absolutely stealing. I would certainly not be treating you how you would like to be treated. Just because you can't see an MP3 file and hold it in your hands does not mean it has no worth. Free pirated music has totally eroded the perceived value this country has for music. Everyone thinks that they should not have to pay for music. When things become free they loose their value and the artists that work hard at creating sounds that benefit you are robbed of a descent living. It's so amazing to me how this country looks at purchasing music. I can think of no other art form that can soothe my soul like music. If I want that song that touches my soul like nothing else can, all I have to do is spend one measly dollar. That's it...one buck. But noooo...we don't think twice about filling up our gas tank for $50 dollars... and that gas only lasts for a week and does not touch your soul like a song can. But when it comes to getting "that song" people go to all sorts of twisted lengths to get it for free and rob the artist of income.

 

[Kel Il]

It's a lot harder to pirate lesser known artists. I do believe that it is stealing in some sort of way, but someone originally bought the album and now they are giving it away. I think the problem is more with the people uploading the artists music, than the people downloading it. Wrong on both sides I suppose, but take away the uploader nobody can download it.