Is Jesus Jewish? I think not

[AlexDTX]

There is no doubt that Jesus was Jewish. But I think Christians tend to believe he still is. I think that misunderstands the resurrection. The Bible says:

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.(Gal. 3:27 & 28)

This passage is often interpreted to mean that Jew nor Greek matters as a Christian, but it also says, "for you are all one in Christ Jesus". If we are neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, neither is Jesus a Jew nor a Greek. Jesus is the first fruits from the dead. He is the new creature that we are all new creations from.

Paul said to the Corinthians:

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 You fool, that which you sow is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which you sow, you sow not that body that shall be, but bore grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God gives it a body as it has pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (1 Cor. 15:35-38).

Take a look at the description of Jesus in the Book of Revelations and he does not even look human.

I think it is a mistake to assume Jesus is still Jewish, and just as big a mistake to assume that if you are Jewish or Greek in the flesh to think you are still so in the spirit.
We need to see ourselves as the new creatures of the new kingdom of God, not what we are or were in the body.

What do you all think?

 

[Albion]

I think that when people say Jesus=Jewish, they're mainly intending to say that when he was on Earth he was a biological representative of his people. Nothing more.

 

[AlexDTX]

I think that when people say Jesus=Jewish, they're mainly intending to say that when he was on Earth he was a biological representative of his people. Nothing more.

I am sure there are some who understand this, but I don't think the vast majority of people who are called Christians, actually think this through. I think this misunderstanding is a big reason Evangelicals are strong supporters of Israel. Yet Revelations calls Jerusalem Sodom and Gommorrah where our Lord was crucified.

 

[Albion]

I am sure there are some who understand this, but I don't think the vast majority of people who are called Christians, actually think this through. I think this misunderstanding is a big reason Evangelicals are strong supporters of Israel. Yet Revelations calls Jerusalem Sodom and Gommorrah where our Lord was crucified.

Well, you asked for our opinions, and that was mine. As for the support of Israel, no, it has nothing much to do with whether Jesus was Jewish...which we apparently agree that he was. What it does deal with are the many references in Scripture to Israel and its future.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Since the Lord Jesus is a human person (not was, but is) then yes it is entirely accurate to say the Lord is Jewish.

I worship a Jewish carpenter from Nazareth as God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AlexDTX]

Well, you asked for our opinions, and that was mine. As for the support of Israel, no, it has nothing much to do with whether Jesus was Jewish...which we apparently agree that he was. What it does deal with are the many references in Scripture to Israel and its future.

Yes, we agree that he was Jewish, but my question was is he Jewish now. I also agree that the Church interest in Israel is the multitude of prophecies regarding his second coming. However, are the prophecies and promises regarding Israel about the descendants of Jacob or the political organization? I think they are about the descendants not the country. Thank you for your opinion, I appreciate the response.

 

[AlexDTX]

Since the Lord Jesus is a human person (not was, but is) then yes it is entirely accurate to say the Lord is Jewish.

I worship a Jewish carpenter from Nazareth as God.

-CryptoLutheran

Is Jesus human? The picture drawn by John in Revelation does not look like any human I have ever met. It is true that an acorn is still an oak, but the tree is not the acorn. We will always be the image of God and his children in the resurrection and the glory of the new creation, but we cease to be what we were as seeds, which Paul in 1 Cor. 15 calls us in this life. Jesus is the first fruits of the new creation. He ceased being what he once was, although he is still the Son of God but is no longer the son of man or the last Adam.

Crypto, you might want to rephrase your statement. Instead of saying you worship a Jewish carpenter from Nazareth as God, what you mean is you worship God as a Jewish carpenter from Nazareth. I worship God as a new creation. I know about Jesus as a Jew from Nazerth, but I have never met him. I have only known a glorified king who abides in my spirit.

It may seem like splitting hairs, but what he was and what he is now are not the same thing.

I do appreciate your feedback. I also realize that the distinction I am making has no impact on anyone's salvation or relationship with God. But this is a theological thread where such matters can be discussed.

 

[mmksparbud]

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus retained His humanity after the resurrection. His body was different, what is called glorified (and don't ask me what that means!) He retains the scars as a reminder to all of the price He paid, He is as He was---fully human, fully divine. He was recognizable to the disciples, His features were the same. His humanity remains Jewish.

 

[Albion]

Yes, we agree that he was Jewish, but my question was is he Jewish now.

OK. I see that now.

I'd say that his body is now glorified, as it was after the Resurrection, and so will ours be when we reach heaven.

Therefore, I can't say that he is part of any particular ethnic group at present, Jewish included

 

[AlexDTX]

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus retained His humanity after the resurrection. His body was different, what is called glorified (and don't ask me what that means!) He retains the scars as a reminder to all of the price He paid, He is as He was---fully human, fully divine. He was recognizable to the disciples, His features were the same. His humanity remains Jewish.

His humanity, and I am not saying he is no longer human, after the resurrection is not the same as his glorification. That resurrection body was a mere 40 days. For the last 2,000 years he has lived as the new creation in glory.

What I am saying is that Jesus died to his Jewishness just as we die to our gentileness, for the Scriptures say that there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ. In Christ we all are something different. Paul made this clear in 1 Corinthians that the body we have will not be the same as the body we will have.

Furthermore, what is a Jew? Literally it is a descendant of Judah. Jesus most definitely was a descendant of Judah, but after you die, that descent ends with the death of the body. Paul argues in Romans seven that a woman who is divorced is still one flesh with the husband divorced which is why remarriage is adultery. However, when the husband dies and she is a widow, she is no longer one flesh with that man since he has been cut off. She is free to remarry another. Paul uses this argument to say that the Jews are no longer married to God through the Mosaic covenant since Jesus, as God in the flesh, died, so now they are free to re-marry God in Christ. When Jesus died, he also died to his Jewishness.

But Jews today are not just descendants of Judah. In fact I was in Jerusalem when Israel airlifted Ethiopian Jews into Israel. These Ethiopians were not descended from Judah for they became proselytes during Solomon's reign. Likewise anyone named Cohen or Levi is not descended from Judah for they are descendants of Levi. Judea included Judah, Levi and Benjamin. Frankly, a Jew today is culturally Jewish and that culture is a mix of Old Testament and the Talmud.
And the Talmud dominates cultural behavior, of which Jesus severely chastised the Pharisees and Sadducees for their undermining the Word of God by their cultural traditions. No Jew nor Greek had ever been a partaker of the divine nature, but we that have the new birth are partakers.

 

[mmksparbud]

It doesn't matter to God what our ethnicity is---nor what our gender is. There is neither male nor female to God either---does that mean that Jesus is no longer male?? Is God no longer male--do we now refer to them as "its"? What and who we are is in the brain---we will still have our thoughts, will those thoughts no longer be thoughts that are male or female? All the angels are referred to by male names--there are no female names to angels---are they male or female? Will Adam and Eve in the resurrection not be male and female anymore---it says there is no marriage in heaven but we are as the angels---Will an oriental no longer be an oriental, a black man no longer black, Hispanic no longer Hispanic--will we all be one color? What color is that? Jesus had features that were recognizable, will those features, though perfected, no longer be the same, no more slanted eyes, or will all be slanted? But last of all, of what importance is any of it??

 

[AlexDTX]

It doesn't matter to God what our ethnicity is---nor what our gender is. There is neither male nor female to God either---does that mean that Jesus is no longer male?? Is God no longer male--do we now refer to them as "its"? What and who we are is in the brain---we will still have our thoughts, will those thoughts no longer be thoughts that are male or female? All the angels are referred to by male names--there are no female names to angels---are they male or female? Will Adam and Eve in the resurrection not be male and female anymore---it says there is no marriage in heaven but we are as the angels---Will an oriental no longer be an oriental, a black man no longer black, Hispanic no longer Hispanic--will we all be one color? What color is that? Jesus had features that were recognizable, will those features, though perfected, no longer be the same, no more slanted eyes, or will all be slanted? But last of all, of what importance is any of it??

Actually, mmks..., I agree with you. I believe our genders will remain, although I don't believe we will participate in sexual reproduction any more, and possibly we may not have genitalia. We will definitely not marry because we are all already married to Christ. And, of course, the several statements in the New Testament regarding no longer male nor female, Jew nor Greek, etc. refer to the equality we all have with God now.

But we will be different. This is what Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 15 on the resurrection of the body. And as I said to Via Crucis, "I also realize that the distinction I am making has no impact on anyone's salvation or relationship with God. But this is a theological thread where such matters can be discussed."

As for the importance I believe it is relevant to the end times. The Evangelical Church has been a strong supporter of the political entity called Israel, confusing the descendants with the political institution. That confusion is caused by believing Jesus is still Jewish and that Jesus is coming back to save the institution. He is not. He is coming back to save the people of his first covenant. The Catholic Church has been wiser in their regard to Israel than the Evangelicals who have become vocal puppets of the political right without thinking through what has been going on, at least in the USA.

We are told to watch and be prepared for our Master's coming. These kinds of discussions are part of that preparation.

 

[mmksparbud]

OK---I realize we will not be the same, we will changed, that is what the bible says, we will be given immortality and though I do not know what we will be--I see no reason to believe we will not still be ethically, what we were just because that is what we are, a part of our own identity. Jesus remaining Jewish, (not as a practicing Jew, but ethnically)has nothing to do with our view of Israel. The Christian view of Israel, is simply, they were the apple of His eye, His chosen people, long before Jesus was a Jew and though they rejected Him---there are too many things about Israel being restored as a nation that were not a part of "if you do this, I will do this" promises. I don't see how anyone can look at how Israel became a nation and not see the hand of God in it. God keeps His promises, even when we don't unless it was conditional. That includes that Israel, is getting more and more Jews that do believe in Jesus---and that alone changes things also. If as a nation they turn to Jesus His will honor His promises as a nation also. We are still, so far, a Christian nation and God has honored that, though the percentages are not as they used to be. It's about impossible for a people that has been removed from the homeland and assimilated into other cultures to keep their own identity as the Jews have no matter where they went and how they were nearly wiped out. Wherever they went. Most cultures would have disappeared, as have the others--Egyptians are not the Egyptians of the bible, nor are the Greeks in their religion, nor the roman Empire nor nearly every other culture, including the American Indian. To hang on to your culture, religion for over 2000 years of nearly everyone on the planet trying to blot you and your religion out, is well----unique, I think. And I can only see that as the hand of God to preserve them for salvation through Jesus and honor the unconditional promises He made them. Though they have regained their standing as a nation, they are literally a tiny speck of dust on the map of the world, and there are certainly enough numbers of all the surrounding countries to literally wipe them out of existence just by simple hand to hand combat---no one has been able to. And they still have their one God, the same God as they always had, but not the Son-- as a nation, though some are rejecting even Him.

 

[Albion]

OK---I realize we will not be the same, we will changed, that is what the bible says, we will be given immortality and though I do not know what we will be--I see no reason to believe we will not still be ethically, what we were just because that is what we are, a part of our own identity.

IMO, this ^ frames the issue correctly. I tend to feel that our ethnicity won't have a meaning in heaven, but either way, I still feel that you've zeroed in on the right way to look at the matter.

 

[Hieronymus]

...but aren't the gentiles inoculated to the tree that is Israel, and isn't Jesus (from) the root of David?
And if Mary was Jewish, wouldn't Jesus be at leas half Jewish?
And wasn't Jesus physically taken up to Heaven by God?
It all sounds rather Jewish to me.

 

[Albion]

He was whatever Mary was. That, however, doesn't flatly explain whether this aspect of his body remained unchanged after the Resurrection. We already know from the Gospel accounts that his body was transformed, so was this (ethnic identify) part of the transformation or glorification of it...or not? It's hard to know.

 

[Soyeong]

There is no doubt that Jesus was Jewish. But I think Christians tend to believe he still is. I think that misunderstands the resurrection. The Bible says:

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.(Gal. 3:27 & 28)

This passage is often interpreted to mean that Jew nor Greek matters as a Christian, but it also says, "for you are all one in Christ Jesus". If we are neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, neither is Jesus a Jew nor a Greek. Jesus is the first fruits from the dead. He is the new creature that we are all new creations from.

Are you denying that there is anyone who is bond or free or male or female? How can 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 be true if these classifications no longer exist? Rather, Paul was making the point that those who are Jews, Greek, bond, free, male, or female all have equal access to being one Christ and that those labels don't give anyone an advantage in that regard. For instance, there were some Jews who thought they had a higher status than Gentiles simply because they were Jews and Paul was arguing against that line of thought.

Paul said to the Corinthians:

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 You fool, that which you sow is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which you sow, you sow not that body that shall be, but bore grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God gives it a body as it has pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (1 Cor. 15:35-38).

Take a look at the description of Jesus in the Book of Revelations and he does not even look human.

I think it is a mistake to assume Jesus is still Jewish, and just as big a mistake to assume that if you are Jewish or Greek in the flesh to think you are still so in the spirit.
We need to see ourselves as the new creatures of the new kingdom of God, not what we are or were in the body.

What do you all think?

We are made new creations in Christ, but I'm still me, still have the same memories, and am still a descendant of the same people, so that's not what is being made new. Jesus will return as the Lion of Judah and won't lose that identity either.

 

[AlexDTX]

These are all excellent points. I am not trying to be a pot stirrer, but stimulate thought. As Americans we have a cultural view that is rooted in some Christian forefathers. The American dream was that we would be a nation of immigrants who adopted an American cultural identity of free sovereigns who work together for common good, yet have independent lives to pursue each person's dream. I don't know if that will apply to the kingdom of God, but ethnicity is to play a secondary role in our identities in the kingdom of God as we all conform to a kingdom culture.

Jesus was Jewish, nor do I believe he has forgotten his ethnic birth, but he is the head of a new ethnicity that we are all being grafted into. Jewishness does not play a role in that new culture in my opinion. This is what I intended to accomplish in this thread was to get believers to see themselves not as Lutherans, or Catholics, or Baptists, or Methodists or any other denomination. Nor to see ourselves as Irish, or American, or Indian, or Blacks, neither. Instead we are to see ourselves as citizens of heaven and the kingdom of God with a new creation cultural identity.

Years ago a local (Dallas) preacher, Tony Evans who has a large black congregation, made this statement that has stuck with me ever since: "The time has come that we stop seeing ourselves as blacks who are Christians, rather we need to see ourselves as Christians who are black." This applies to ethnicities of any kind, as well as political nationalities. We are to be a separate people, holy and peculiar unto the Lord.

 

[AlexDTX]

Another consideration to think about is where do cultures come from? No doubt the physical appearance changes in people came from climate and geography so pigmentation in those who migrated north with low light conditions became light and those who went towards the equator became darker. Did God make them light or dark? I don't think so. That is the result of their choices of migration. Did God know the results of those choices? Of course He did.

Likewise with culture and cultural morays. God does not create the cultures, we do. The story of Jim Elliot and his group who were missionaries to the Ecuadorian Indians is an interesting example. In that culture revenge was the honorable thing to do. So after they massacred the men they expected the wives to retaliate, but they forgave them instead. That contrast of cultural moray was the key to their salvation.

The Jewish culture was not created by God. It was created by the Jews of Judea and their leadership who compiled the Talmud. It was against this Jewish culture that Jesus fought against since their traditions undermined the Word of God.

Knowing that God is a God of variety, I suspect that some cultural elements might be retained, but I think very few since we are to be transformed into the kingdom culture instead. I realize that how we understand that culture now will likely be wrong in many ways as well as right in other ways, for we are still all like the blind men touching the elephant and we perceive only a part. Will there be any Jewish culture that remains? Maybe. Especially if Jesus is ruling from Jerusalem. There will be Old Testament elements that will continue in the millennium. The book of Zechariah says that if the pagans (Egypt specifically) do not come to Jerusalem to worship the king and to observe the Feast of Tabernacles, then God will with-hold the rain (Zech. 14:17-19).

 

[Open Heart]

We see from the gospels that the wounds from the crucifixion left scars that survived the resurrection. So His glorified body preserves alterations. That means his Jewish circumcision remains to this day. Before God we are all equal (aka there is no male or female, no Jew nor Greek) but that doesn't mean we aren't still a man or a woman, a Jew or a Greek, even after resurrection.