Is it possible The Church isn't part of the Millennium?

[MithrandirOlorin888]

"They where ordered to be Fruitful and Multiply"

.... after they fell

NO not after they fell. 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

[Time Watcher]

They had their offspring after they fell

 

[Bible2]

MithrandirOlorin888 said in post 1:

Is it possible The Church isn't part of the Millennium?

No.

MithrandirOlorin888 said in post 1:

Because Revelation 20:4-6 clearly have the Tribulaiton saints on Earth Resurrected during the Millennium, and thus makes them separate from the Church.

Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the first resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the first resurrection will be the bodily resurrection of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the first resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the first resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao, G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the first resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

MithrandirOlorin888 said in post 1:

Because Revelation 20:4-6 clearly have the Tribulaiton saints on Earth Resurrected during the Millennium, and thus makes them separate from the Church.

Regarding the idea of "Tribulation saints", the saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately to only believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed to only believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation-rapture view admits that, for example, John 14 and Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3), so the pre-tribulation-rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) and their becoming offended (Matthew 24:10) that he would let them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

 

[Time Watcher]

"Regarding the idea of "Tribulation saints", the saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church"


Not today's ecclesia BS .... but those who will become believers during the tribulation period

You still attempt to corrupt Revelation 12 by inserting your MSOG many membered "manchild" "church"

Revelation 12 is not about the "church" in tribulation as you say

This passage of scripture is all about Israel [the "woman"] in the tribulation ... the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30] .... the 70th week decreed for "Israel"

 

[Messy]

Jacob's trouble

That says it all. The church is never called Jacob. Israel was called Jacob before he had an encounter with God.

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

They didn't have the kids till latter, but the command came before, it was always part of God's intention.

I didn't say the Church won't be Resurrected yet, we're Resurrected at the Rapture.

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 24:

Not today's ecclesia BS .... but those who will become believers during the tribulation period

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of today's ecclesia (church). Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Time Watcher said in post 24:

You still attempt to corrupt Revelation 12 by inserting your MSOG many membered "manchild" "church"

Note that what has been presented hasn't been based on MSOG teachings (which have never even been looked at), but on the Bible itself.

Also, no claim has been made regarding being one of the 144,000 (the man child).

Also, it hasn't been said that the 144,000 are of any one denomination, but rather that they're one part of the church as a whole. I.e., members of the 144,000 can be spread across all denominations.

The 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as, for example, 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins. And literal male virgins can be found in all denominations.

Also, the number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 will be a literal number of people, which will consist of literally 12 groups with literally 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8). And even each group can be spread across all denominations.

Time Watcher said in post 24:

Revelation 12 is not about the "church" in tribulation as you say

Actually, it is. For in Revelation 12, the "woman" represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Time Watcher said in post 24:

This passage of scripture is all about Israel [the "woman"] in the tribulation ... the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30] .... the 70th week decreed for "Israel"

Regarding the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7), it won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

 

[Time Watcher]

"Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of today's ecclesia (church)"


I suggest you note that there is ... do you know why Satan wants to blindside you on this matter? [Revelation 12:12]

If you are alive at the time, you will most likely end up in the tribulation period, but not as you think

And there will be no many membered corporate "manchild" impervious to the wiles of the tribulation period as you think

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 28:

... do you know why Satan wants to blindside you on this matter? [Revelation 12:12]

Those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the mid-tribulation time of Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 13:6 will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).

Time Watcher said in post 28:

... do you know why Satan wants to blindside you on this matter?

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they'd held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

-

As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine that some kids were at a summer camp and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow there's going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on that hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day, at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. After the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

Time Watcher said in post 28:

And there will be no many membered corporate "manchild" impervious to the wiles of the tribulation period as you think

All obedient people in the church will be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). Near the end of this first stage, the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They're those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

I believe the opening of the 7th Seal is the beginning of the Tribulation.

 

[Time Watcher]

I would say the 6th

The 7th is a moment of silence in heaven ..... just before the begin to judgments fall

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

Also possible, th Sun ebing Blakc and the Moon ebing Red could equte to a Solar Ecplipse on the 1st of Tishri and Lunar Eclipse on the 15th. I think it's possible the 144,000 will be sealed over the feast of Tabernacles, because I tend to view the Chapter of John's Gospel as running Parallel to their equivalent Chapters in Revelation.