Is it OK to be Lutheran and believe in the Rapture?

[Jim47]

We We We all the way home...

Hey all I have returned as someone else as Spalatin had to go and aid Frederick the Wise. So How are you all?

Welcome back Scott.

 

[DaRev]

I am talking about "Greek" we.
You are bringing up the "Hebrew" we.

 

[DaSeminarian]

Welcome back Scott.

Thank you Jim,

I may only be on sporadically and for short bursts here and there. We just finished the Fall quarter at CTS.
Hey everyone I get to take part in the liturgy tomorrow at my fieldwork church. I have my Alb fitted and ready to go. I am going today to do a practice run.

Pray that all goes well.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Hey Pr. Scott!!

 

[Simon_Templar]

*sigh*

non-literal post millenialism and dispensational pre-tribulationism are not the only two options available.

Personally I don't think either one of them are biblically accurate.

 

[Edial]

*sigh*

non-literal post millenialism and dispensational pre-tribulationism are not the only two options available.

Personally I don't think either one of them are biblically accurate.

Both of them are theories that are seldom argued from Biblical perspective.
Oh, the Bible is invoked, but the verses that are presented are in a way "made to fit" these theories.

Objectively speaking, there is no Scriptural support for these.
But minds are seldom changed once they are used to something.

All denominations have such forms of teachings and these are often defended with zeal.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DaSeminarian]

Hey Pr. Scott!!

I am very prayerful that this truly will indeed be what I am called. Though I do prefer more formality.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Your honor?

 

[LutherNut]

I am very prayerful that this truly will indeed be what I am called. Though I do prefer more formality.

How about Rt. Rev. Mnsgr. Fr. Scott... ?

 

[Christopher777]

Wow! I didn't expect so many responses!

I admit I haven't even read all the pages because I have only 45 minutes once a week to be online, and I wanted to respond to what I have read so far.

At this point, you guys got my head spinning from all the different views here. Here's my understanding of things (and I don't have a Bible handy to give references either, so bear with me):

Jesus comes in the sky at some point at the moment known as the Rapture and takes His Elect, both dead and alive, up to Heaven with Him in new Resurrected bodies. Then the 7 year Tribulation begins. At the end of the 7 years, Jesus returns, binds Satan, and the 1000 years of Peace with Jesus as Ruler begins (how some of you could possibly consider THIS time the 1000 year kingdom I'll never understand-there is certainly NO peace, lots of pain, and Satan is running as rampant as he ever was). At the end of this time period, Satan is let loose for a short time, then God destroys EVERYTHING and a New Heaven and Earth are created.

That's what I get from reading the Bible. I've never even heard of these "Left Behind" books that some have mentioned.

 

[LilLamb219]

Christopher, does Christ come a second time or a second and third time?

 

[Melethiel]

Where do you get "7 years" from the Bible?

 

[Zecryphon]

Where do you get "7 years" from the Bible?

I believe that is an interpretation of Daniel's last week.

 

[Jim47]

Christopher777

Jesus comes in the sky at some point at the moment known as the Rapture and takes His Elect, both dead and alive, up to Heaven with Him in new Resurrected bodies.

You have the above part right, but there is no 7 years of tribulation nor is there a 1000 years of tribulation.

Then the 7 year Tribulation begins. At the end of the 7 years, Jesus returns, binds Satan, and the 1000 years of Peace with Jesus as Ruler begins (how some of you could possibly consider THIS time the 1000 year kingdom I'll never understand-there is certainly NO peace, lots of pain, and Satan is running as rampant as he ever was). At the end of this time period, Satan is let loose for a short time, then God destroys EVERYTHING and a New Heaven and Earth are created.

The 1000 years is a visual time period only for the sake of Revelations. We are in the tribulation now and have been since Jesus resurection. Just look round you, other then the visual imagery written in Revelation do yo see any part of what is described that is not alreay happening, or been happening for many many years.

The true meaning of the 1000 years is that it is a long but undertermined length of time

Yes Satan is very busy doing his evil work, "but" he is limited as to what he can do.

Mt 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Jesus will not let allow him to decieve the elect, nor will Jesus lose any of the elect to Satan. Believers will be persceuted, slain and subject to disease and all manner of problems, but Jesus will safe guard us so that we will not be stolen away.

 

[DaRev]

Jesus comes in the sky at some point at the moment known as the Rapture and takes His Elect, both dead and alive, up to Heaven with Him in new Resurrected bodies.

Wrong. When Jesus returns, the dead in Christ will rise and the believers who are still alive will be 'caught up" (Raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. Paul's description of this is a clarification of Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24 & 25. Here Jesus uses the parable of the wise and foolish virgins to illustrate His return. The dead in Christ and those left alive do not go to back heaven with Him. They accompany Him down to the judgement, which Jesus describes with the sheep and goats parable.

Then the 7 year Tribulation begins. At the end of the 7 years, Jesus returns, binds Satan, and the 1000 years of Peace with Jesus as Ruler begins (how some of you could possibly consider THIS time the 1000 year kingdom I'll never understand-there is certainly NO peace, lots of pain, and Satan is running as rampant as he ever was).

There is no "7 year" tribulation period. The Scriptures do not mention this at all. The period of tribulation is currently upon us, as is the "1000 year reign of Christ". The condition of the world is indicative of the tribulation. The peace that we as believers have in Christ is indicative of His reign now in the Kingdom of Power and the Kingdom of Grace. We await His Kingdom of Glory which comes on the Last Day. It is this Kingdom that we pray to come in the Lord's Prayer.

At the end of this time period, Satan is let loose for a short time, then God destroys EVERYTHING and a New Heaven and Earth are created.

This is true. Satan is currently bound, meaning his influence is tethered by God. Satan is limited in his influence in the world. There is what is called "the little season," that time when Satan is loosed. But this occurs on the Last Day.

That's what I get from reading the Bible. I've never even heard of these "Left Behind" books that some have mentioned.

Your understanding has eveidently been influenced by premillenial dispensational theology because some of what you wrote simply is not Scriptural.
I would suggest Dr. Louis Brighton's Revelation commentary. It's probably the best excursion on the book there is. It's available from Concordia Publishing House in St. Louis.

 

[DaRev]

You have the above part right, but there is no 7 years of tribulation nor is there a 1000 years of tribulation.

Jesus does not take the "raptured" believers back to heaven. They accompany Him to the judgement.

 

[Jim47]

Jesus does not take the "raptured" believers back to heaven. They accompany Him to the judgement.

That might be what the LCMS believes, but WELs believe that we believers will not stand in the judgement. We have already been judged by Jesus righteousness and found to be perfect. The judgement is for unbelievers. Our sins have been forgiven, there is no judgment for us.

Unless this is what you mean, that we will judge others?

1Co 6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

 

[Melethiel]

What do you make of this then?

[bible]Matthew 25:31-46[/bible]

 

[Zecryphon]

That might be what the LCMS believes, but WELs believe that we believers will not stand in the judgement. We have already been judged by Jesus righteousness and found to be perfect. The judgement is for unbelievers. Our sins have been forgiven, there is no judgment for us.

Unless this is what you mean, that we will judge others?

1Co 6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

Aren't there two judgements though? One for believers in Christ, the Bema Seat Judgement and the Great White Throne judgement where the sinners are judged and sentenced to hell or death.

 

[Jim47]

Aren't there two judgements though? One for believers in Christ, the Bema Seat Judgement and the Great White Throne judgement where the sinners are judged and sentenced to hell or death.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in



I see no where in that scripture that the faithful believers will be judged, only the dead which is this case, it is talking about spiritual death. Again, believers would be judged by the righteousness that was won for them by Jesus.