Is it OK to be Lutheran and believe in the Rapture?

[JM]

I'm asking this question because as I've been delving farther into Christian theology, I've discovered that Lutherans don't believe in the Rapture (which is clearly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). To be honest, the hope of the Rapture coming possibly soon is what keeps me going everyday.
I was not aware of this little fact when I decided to remain Lutheran a while ago (as opposed to becoming Catholic or Pentecostal). I'd like to stay Lutheran, but only if my beliefs about the end times are tolerated by other Lutherans. I've spent enough of my life being a "black sheep".
I've also been told that most Lutherans don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom, either. Now this is very clearly talked about in Revelation.
I guess it just frustrates me when Christians say they don't believe in things that are explained nicely in the Bible.

George N. H. Peters was Lutheran who wrote "The Theocratic Kingdom of God." It's pretrib, premil and dispensational. It's often over looked because it's so massive, 3 vol. I've read much of it and the man makes a good case...but that's not the issue. \

http://www.conservativeonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2

 

[LutherNut]

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[LilLamb219]

I love the following quote:

Those who cherish and foster the millennial hope (and these have included great and good men) need to ask themselves whether the desire to have and enjoy a visible victory before the final victory of the Crucified is not a subtle and unconscious form of objection to the Crucified who unseals the scroll taken from the hand of God; He in His wisdom and power keeps the church hidden under the cross, and He has promised to be with His church, under the cross, to the close of the age. (Matt. 28:20)94

It's marked as being by Franzmann and is toward the end of this interesting article:

http://www.wlsessays.net/authors/B/BrennerEschatology/BrennerEschatology.PDF

 

[LutherNut]

Now the great tribulation is mentioned in Revelation 7:14. "I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "these are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Now how do you know that we are definitely in the great tribulation period?

I'll take a crack at this one...

In Revelation 7:14, the Greek word that is mistakenly translated "have come out" in the NIV is a present activbe participle which indicates a continuous action. The correct interpretation of the Greek text here is "these are the ones who are coming out of the great time of trouble." It is not a past tense, something that has happened prior; nor is it a future tense, a single event yet to come. It is a continuous action, ongoing, which can only mean that the "great time of trouble" is ongoing. It is now.

This is one of the many reasons that we should never base our theology on the NIV.

 

[Zecryphon]

Zecryphon - Not recognizing a specific seven year period, and all the dispensational baggage that goes along with it, is not the same as rejecting a tribulation. So we can easily say that there is no 7 year "Great Tribulation", but still recognize the tribulation that is currently being realized.

Of course you can easily say that there is no seven year Great Tribulation because such a thing is not taught. Dispensationalism doesn't even teach such a doctrine. In their theology the Great Tribulation is the last three and a half years of the seven year Tribulation period. So how are you recognizing that we are currently in a great tribulation period? Are you looking for signs of it and finding them?

 

[Zecryphon]

I'll take a crack at this one...

In Revelation 7:14, the Greek word that is mistakenly translated "have come out" in the NIV is a present activbe participle which indicates a continuous action. The correct interpretation of the Greek text here is "these are the ones who are coming out of the great time of trouble." It is not a past tense, something that has happened prior; nor is it a future tense, a single event yet to come. It is a continuous action, ongoing, which can only mean that the "great time of trouble" is ongoing. It is now.

This is one of the many reasons that we should never base our theology on the NIV.

The NIV is the version the Lutheran church I attend uses. Perhaps in the future I should use my more literal NASB or ESV.

 

[Melethiel]

Of course you can easily say that there is no seven year Great Tribulation because such a thing is not taught. Dispensationalism doesn't even teach such a doctrine. In their theology the Great Tribulation is the last three and a half years of the seven year Tribulation period.

Sigh. Semantics. It all boils down to the same thing. Not recognizing a 7-year tribulation with the last 3.5 years being extra bad is not the same as not recognizing tribulation. Yes, the tribulation is being realized now, and has been for the last few millenia.

 

[DaRev]

1TH 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ...

Clouds are not 16 inches off the ground...

Come on DaRev. Are we gonna engage again?

We are if you are going to continue this nonsense.

Have you ever been to Hazleton, PA? Today, the clouds are pretty close to the ground.

The issue is not how far, but that we are meeting the Lord to accompany Him to the judgement.

 

[DaRev]

I'll take a crack at this one...

In Revelation 7:14, the Greek word that is mistakenly translated "have come out" in the NIV is a present activbe participle which indicates a continuous action. The correct interpretation of the Greek text here is "these are the ones who are coming out of the great time of trouble." It is not a past tense, something that has happened prior; nor is it a future tense, a single event yet to come. It is a continuous action, ongoing, which can only mean that the "great time of trouble" is ongoing. It is now.

This is one of the many reasons that we should never base our theology on the NIV.

I preached on this text for All Saint's Sunday. At the end of the sermon we gave thanks to God for those who have passed on from our congregation. As the names were read, I said, "We give thanks to God for <name> who has come out of the great tribulation and has entered the Church Triumphant on <date of passing>." Then the sexton tolled the bell and the choir sang a response of "Jesus, Remember Me" from the LSB hymnal #767. It was a joyous remembrance.

 

[Edial]

Book of the Revelation is one of the most uncomfortable "secrets" that the Church has.

It is often buried in the commentaries, shuffled away and often ... just plainly ignored.

Most of the Christians do not read the Revelation, but the Commentaries on the Revelations.

Yet non-believers associate the Revelation with Christianity. .
They take it literally, ... and John intended it to be taken literally, ... as seen.

Revelation (Apochalypse) means gradual unveiling.
And it is quiet easy to understand, yet hard to believe.

But believing without controlling, is something we find hard to do.
Believing without controlling means changing one's mind.

The Church likes controlling things, since the Church consists of sinful men that are being made holy, ... but meanwhile, they like controlling things.

Yet they cannot control the Revelation.
It is staring them in the face, independent, unique and uncompromising.

The Revelations states -
REV 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. ...

Servants in Greek means "slaves".
Unfortunately, most of the commentaries that are written about the Revelation, are not written by the slaves of Christ.


(Not every believer is a slave of Christ. )


Most of the people that are criticizing the Revelation do not know the Revelation and are just following the comments of others.

Broken telephone syndrome - much noise, most of it wrong.

Some frown at people that say that the Revelation should be taken literally, ... as if literal interpretation does not include some symbolism.

Some say Revelation is symbolic, yet cannot even describe what they mean by it.

"The chain that the Satan is bound is not literal, is it?", they ask incredulously.

And that incredulous look is reflected by a picture of a rusty chain, made of titanium links by which a dude in a red jump-suit is bound while saying curse words.

But of course the chains are literal. .

They are literal in the Supernatural World, the same way John seen it.

Are there creatures with eyes all over their bodies, even under the wings? ....... , of course!

Why do you think John was describing these things in such details?


The life on this Earth is described as a SHADOW of things up there.

The Natural is a shadow of the Supernatural.

But the Natural, in it's sinful state, likes to control.
And the one that controls, never follows.

They either control or obstruct that what they cannot control.

Calling something "symbolic" usually meant to dismiss that something.

Revelation states (right off the bat) -
3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

No wonder great many Christians dismiss the book, and great many others read so many things into it with all types of raptures, nuclear wars, RC as Antichrist - two sides of extremism.

Satan buried the easiest book of the Bible into commentaries, slapped special colored glasses on the eyes of the church and provided intellectual commentaries that ultimately end up saying that the Revelations has no practical purpose to today's everyday life (with the exception of the 7 churches).


Unlike the rest of the Bible, the Revelation is not addressed to just any believer, but to the ones that are ready to have their opinions changed.

Just some thoughts ...

Thanks,
Ed

 

[KEPLER]

Concerning amillenianism.
In my view, Lutheranism does not have a good case for amillenianism.

One of the weak points of Lutheranism is their eschatology.

Fortunately, this topic is not covered in the Confessions, ... so, theologically Lutheranism is simply silent on it.

Ed,

I'm posting this without having read all of the responses since, so I may be repeating someone here...

The Confessions are not, in fact, completely silent on the topic.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article XVII: Of Christ's Return to Judgment.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Also they teach that at the Consummation of the World Christ will appear for judgment, and 2] will raise up all the dead; He will give to the godly and elect eternal life and everlasting joys, 3] but ungodly men and the devils He will condemn to be tormented without end. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4] They condemn the Anabaptists, who think that there will be an end to the punishments of condemned men and devils. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5] They condemn also others who are now spreading certain Jewish opinions, that before the resurrection of the dead the godly shall take possession of the kingdom of the world, the ungodly being everywhere suppressed. [/FONT]

In sections 1-3, that bold red semi-colon in the quote is where the "Left Behind" millennium would have to occur, but the CA doesn't make any room for it.
Section 4 puts the kibosh on annhilationism.
Section 5 denies post-millennialism (the dominant form of millennialism up to the very late 19th century.)

K

 

[Edial]

We are if you are going to continue this nonsense.

Have you ever been to Hazleton, PA? Today, the clouds are pretty close to the ground.

The issue is not how far, but that we are meeting the Lord to accompany Him to the judgement.

.
Again you start with "we"?
Gathering the troops?

Verses please, verses.

And concerning clouds being close to the ground argument, which smily should I pick?

I flew on a plane above the clouds, under the clouds, in the clouds.
I always liked the window seat.

 

[BigNorsk]

Should we also note that most interpretations of Revelation are actually based on translations of Erasmus' text which comes from a single Alexandrian manuscript and some backtranslating from Latin?

Marv

 

[Edial]

Ed,

I'm posting this without having read all of the responses since, so I may be repeating someone here...

The Confessions are not, in fact, completely silent on the topic.


In sections 1-3, that bold red semi-colon in the quote is where the "Left Behind" millennium would have to occur, but the CA doesn't make any room for it.
Section 4 puts the kibosh on annhilationism.
Section 5 denies post-millennialism (the dominant form of millennialism up to the very late 19th century.)

K

Good post.

Yes, it is not completely silent. True.

By saying "silent", I meant it presents basic and general Biblical perspective.
I do not have a problem with that at all.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Should we also note that most interpretations of Revelation are actually based on translations of Erasmus' text which comes from a single Alexandrian manuscript and some backtranslating from Latin?

Marv

Excellent point, Marv.

Received Text is quiet weak in that.

In one place it states that we are made "kings" instead of "kingdom" ... of the top of my head.

 

[Edial]

And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Zecryphon]

I preached on this text for All Saint's Sunday. At the end of the sermon we gave thanks to God for those who have passed on from our congregation. As the names were read, I said, "We give thanks to God for <name> who has come out of the great tribulation and has entered the Church Triumphant on <date of passing>." Then the sexton tolled the bell and the choir sang a response of "Jesus, Remember Me" from the LSB hymnal #767. It was a joyous remembrance.

How were you using the phrase "the Church Triumphant"? Were you saying that those from your church whom are deceased have gone to be with Jesus in Heaven? If so, how does that square with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 (NASB):

"15For this we say to you (A)by the word of the Lord, that (B)we who are alive and remain until (C)the coming of the Lord, will not precede (D)those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord (E)Himself (F)will descend from heaven with a (G)shout, with the voice of (H)the archangel and with the (I)trumpet of God, and (J)the dead in Christ will rise first."

It sounds to me, and I could be wrong here, wouldn't be the first time, that when we die, we sleep and remain asleep until the second coming of Jesus and it is at that time that we are raised to life in Him and go to be with Him forever in Heaven.

 

[Zecryphon]

.
Again you start with "we"?
Gathering the troops?

Verses please, verses.

And concerning clouds being close to the ground argument, which smily should I pick?

I flew on a plane above the clouds, under the clouds, in the clouds.
I always liked the window seat.

Let's remember that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 was not penned in Hazleton, PA, so where the clouds are in Hazleton, PA is really irrelevant and I believe a red herring. Wouldn't the real issue be where the clouds were in relation to the audience of that verse?

Jesus was revealing a truth to the author, so when the author writes it down and shares it with the people it would be important to remember where the clouds would be, either in the sky or on the ground in relation to the audience receiving the message.

For me, clouds are almost always up in the sky, I live in Phoenix, AZ. Yes they can be on the ground sometimes, but for the most part clouds are a part of the landscape of the sky. So for me, the verse means that we will go up into the sky to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Protoevangel]

This is what happens when we reject the wisdom of the Church. Every man is his own pope.

 

[Edial]

This is what happens when we reject the wisdom of the Church. Every man is his own pope.

The Eastern Orthodox for example are extremely weak in the Revelation.

I asked my uncle, the Archbishop of the Armenian Orthodox and Apostolic Church concerning the Revelation.

He said they do not teach it, since they do not understand it.
(Of course, they have some commentaries...)

Yet, ... it was written to be understood.

And concerning each man being his own pope?

People are told to bounce the thoughts off the Bible.
The Bible being the rock against which the thoughts should withstand.

Unfortunately, many do become "popes" by massaging the Bible to fit one's own thoughts and will.

Human will is not that complicated to see at all.
We just find it unbelievable to accept it as present in the global context of the Church.

So, we accept the "wisdom of the Church" as an infallible guide in ALL theological doctrines because we deny even the possibility of the human will making that "heavenly wisdom" in many ways the "wisdom of this world", even within the Church.

Church is good, Church is the Bride of Christ, but she needs constructive help, not blind acceptance of her imperfection as perfection.

That will destroy her.

Thanks,
Ed