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Is it OK to be Lutheran and believe in the Rapture?

Discussion in 'Theologia Crucis - Lutherans' started by Christopher777, Nov 13, 2006.

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  1. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I like your definitions.

    I think the 2nd one kind of agree with me more and more.

    The definition of a Lutheran must contain Traditional aspects of Christianity.
    Of course it should tolerate certain modifications that times dictate, but it just must have that organ, robes, ...

    These do not reflect her theological essense, but a visual identity, like an image in a mirror.
    It is skin deep, true, but it is an image nonetheless, that is easily recognized.

    Hey, everyone needs an image. :)
    One cannot even drive a car without one.
     
  2. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Welcome ...

    The "Left Behind" series are primarily based on a theory of a pre-tribulational Rapture.

    That what made the series so popular.

    I do not think that a support for these series should be established by ignoring it's primary theological emphasys and concentrating on the secondary.
     
  3. Melethiel

    Melethiel Miserere mei, Domine Supporter

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    I haven't read Revelation in a while, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your timeline is a bit off. The new heaven and new earth scenario is presented AFTER the 1000 years.
     
  4. DaRev

    DaRev New Member

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    The "millenial kinhdom" is presently here with us. The "New Heaven and New Earth" come on the Last Day when Christ returns (His only return). There is no literal "1000 year kingdom of Christ on earth." That is a symbol of the present Church age. There is no "seven years of Tribulation." The Great Tribulation is also presently being realized. There is no "secret rapture of the Church." When Christ returns it will be "with a loud trumpet call" (Matthew 24:31) and "with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God" (1 Thess. 4:16). Everyone on earth will know when this event happens, and "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30).

    The New Heaven and New Earth will be the Kingdom of Glory that is inherited by those in Christ: "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). This is the Kingdom that we pray for in the Lord's Prayer, "Thy Kingdom come."
     
  5. Zecryphon

    Zecryphon New Member

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    The books and the dramatic audios and the whole series is nothing but entertainment to me, the theology behind it is not really that important to me. There are other theologies out there as well. I'm not saying LaHaye and Jenkins are correct in theirs. And you're correct the new heaven and earth appear after the thousand year reign of Christ.
     
  6. Zecryphon

    Zecryphon New Member

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    "The "millenial kinhdom" is presently here with us."

    And your scriptural support for this is?

    "The "New Heaven and New Earth" come on the Last Day when Christ returns (His only return)."

    Agreed.

    "There is no literal "1000 year kingdom of Christ on earth.""

    Revelation 20 seems to disagree with you on that. The whole chapter is about 'the thousand years'.

    "That is a symbol of the present Church age."

    So when did Revelation 20:1-3 take place? I would like scriptural support for your claim. If I understand what you're suggesting correctly, Satan has now been bound for a thousand years and has no influence over our lives in this world? So no one can really say "the devil made me do it," or blame the devil in any way for anything that goes wrong in their lives, because he has been bound and has no influence anymore, right?

    "There is no "seven years of Tribulation." The Great Tribulation is also presently being realized."

    Scriptures please. Also your statement makes no sense. If there is no seven years of tribulation, then there can be no Great Tribulation that is presently being realized. The Great Tribulation is the last three and a half years of the seven year tribulation period, that you have claimed doesn't exist. How does that work?

    "There is no "secret rapture of the Church.""

    Yes, I don't find anything in the scriptures that really supports that idea.

    "When Christ returns it will be "with a loud trumpet call" (Matthew 24:31) and "with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God" (1 Thess. 4:16). Everyone on earth will know when this event happens, and "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30)."

    Yep.

    "The New Heaven and New Earth will be the Kingdom of Glory that is inherited by those in Christ: "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). This is the Kingdom that we pray for in the Lord's Prayer, "Thy Kingdom come.""

    Okay then what do you make of these verses from Revelation 20:4-6

    4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    These verses speak plainly of not one but two resurrections and a thousand year reign with Christ. Some people are resurrected before the thousand year reign and others after the thousand year reign. These verses also speak of the mark of the beast and beheadings of believers in Jesus, events believed to take place during the seven year tribulation, an event you deny will ever happen. So whom do I believe here? The word of God or you?
     
  7. seajoy

    seajoy Senior Veteran

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    Satan was defeated at the cross, and with the ressurection of Christ. Satan only has the power that God allows him to have.

    Yes, he is bound.
     
    Jim47 likes this.
  8. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How would one know that?


    True.
    He will have only one return.

    How does that negate a separate event for a rapture?
    When Christ is coming down we will meet him in the mid-air (quite a distance up).
    Then we will continue coming down with him - one coming.

    Howwould one know that?

    Maybe not seven years, true. Scriptures are not clear on that.

    If Tribulation is being presently realized, how could we be in a Millenium during which there must be a tremendous peace in the world (the wolf and lamb verse)?

    That is true concerning everyone seeing Christ coming and there will be only one coming.

    Yet there clearly are the verses presenting a quick and surprising catching up.

    The following harmony appears to accomodate both sets of verses.

    1. Christ is in process of coming down with his Kingdom following (spiritual warfare where the hordes of demons are pushed towards the Earth - Daniel instance where Michael is helping out the Christ in the battle)

    2. The bodies of dead saints are raised from the Earth.

    3. Live saints are raised to mid-air while being translated. (Mid-air is quite a distance up - so, it is "secret" to the world).

    4. Some more events are happening.

    5. Christ continues coming down now with the ENTIRE army (no saints on the Earth) and becomes visible to ALL through the clouds - TRUMPETS and so forth.

    6. ...

    Amen.
     
  9. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed. :)

    Ed
     
  10. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe I shoud turn off the TV. :)

    If Satan is currently bound, how do you explain this?

    1PE 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

    Thanks,
    Ed
     
  11. paladin_carvin

    paladin_carvin Regular Member

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    I'm sorry if I didn't make my statement clear. I was a Christian for many years, and then in college... I came to conflict, and rejected Christ. Later, God saw to it that I was once again given faith, a gift I am most thankful for.
     
  12. Zecryphon

    Zecryphon New Member

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    Let's go with your statement that satan is in fact bound. What power has God given him and why? I mean if you bound me in some way, with ropes or chains, I really couldn't do anything or influence anyone in any tangible way. Satan is often called the ruler of this world, if he or I guess satan could be a she too, is bound, his or her influence would be very little if any, right?
     
  13. DaRev

    DaRev New Member

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    There are numerous Scripture citations that affirm this, but time and space prohibit my commenting on them all. Reemeber that Revelation is written in apocolyptic literature and is symbolic. It is not to be interpreted as an historical narrative, which many mistakenly do.

    Every mention of "1000 years" in Scripture is symbolic, pointing to something else. In Matthew 4:17 it says, "From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." The Greek word translated "at hand" is the perfect active form of "engizo" which in that form means "has come." The Kingdom of heaven is three-fold. The Kingdom of Power is Christ's reign over all of Creation, which He always had. It is here. The Kingdom of Grace is the Church on earth, which is here presently. The Kingdom of Glory is the Church and angels in heaven, which is the Kingdom yet to come. It is this kingdom that we pray for in the Lord's Prayer. The so-called "1000 year reign of Christ on earth" refers to the Kingdom of Grace, the forgiveness of sins that is ours through holy baptism, and the assurance of life in the Kingdom of Glory by the blood of Christ. Through His suffering and death we are at peace with God.


    The "1000 years" is symbolic of the Church age mentioned above. It is here and now.

    Satan is bound. His power goes only as far as God allows. Read the parable of the strong man in Matt 12, Mark 2, & Luke 11. Jesus compares Satan to "a strong man". The "strong man" Jesus refers to is Satan. Satan, the "strong man," is bound.

    I would ask you for Scripture references that state this. They do not exist.


    The first resurrection is baptism. Jesus says in John 3, "One must be born again" meaning "a second time from above." He clarifies this by saying that "one must be born of water and the Spirit." In baptism, as Paul explains in Romans 6, are old nature is drown and dies along with Christ, and at the same time a new creation arises along with Christ. Our baptism, as Paul states, unites us with Christ's death and resurrection. The "first resurrection" is our rebirth, our death and resurrection, of Baptism. The "second resurrection" is on the Last Day.

    Revelation is an apocolyptic book and MUST be interpreted that way. It is how God gave us His word. You need to learn how to read it.

    May I suggest quite possibly the best commentary on the book of Revelation in existance. The Concordia Commentary on Revelation by Dr. Louis Brighton, available from Concordia Publishing House. If you really want to learn the truth of Revelation, you need this resource.


    God bless
     
  14. DaRev

    DaRev New Member

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    By reading the Bible.

    How do you know how "far up" that will be? The word in the Greek text is "aera" which is "the space immediately above the earth" or simply "air." The "aera" could be 35,000 feet or 16 inches off the ground. Don'y make the text say things it does not. You have a habit of doing this.

    Besides, the Rapture occurs on the Last Day. It coincides with His descent to earth. The Scriptures are clear on this.


    Proper exegesis of Scripture shows us that the "1000 years" mention in Scripture is symbolic in every instance.


    The Lamb and Wolf verses from Isaiah refer to the Last Day and the Kingdom of Glory, after the return of Christ and the realization of the New Heaven and New Earth.


    Those who are not prepapred and ready, as Jesus tells us to be, will be caught off guard and surprised on the Last Day when these things occur.

    I also suggest you read Dr. Brighton's commentary on Revelation, available from Concordia Publishing House.
     
  15. DaRev

    DaRev New Member

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    If you have your dog on a leash, there is a certain amount of freedom of movement that he has until he reaches the limit of the leash.
     
  16. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1TH 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ...

    Clouds are not 16 inches off the ground...

    Come on DaRev. Are we gonna engage again?
     
  17. Zecryphon

    Zecryphon New Member

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    Quote:
    "There is no "seven years of Tribulation." The Great Tribulation is also presently being realized."

    Scriptures please. Also your statement makes no sense. If there is no seven years of tribulation, then there can be no Great Tribulation that is presently being realized. The Great Tribulation is the last three and a half years of the seven year tribulation period, that you have claimed doesn't exist. How does that work?
    "I would ask you for Scripture references that state this. They do not exist."

    Nice dodge. You still haven't answered the question. Predispensationalism, and I'm not endorsing that school of thought, teaches as far as I can remember, that the seven year tribulation period has two halves. The first half is known as the tribulation, and the second half is known as the great tribulation. The halfway point is when anti-Christ is assassinated.

    Now how can you say the second half of the tribulation known as the great tribulation is upon us now, without recognizing a seven year tribulation period in the first place? And the only verse that I can find that might suggest a seven year tribulation period is Daniel 9:27. Notice I said might.

    "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven'. In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing (of the temple) he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

    Now the great tribulation is mentioned in Revelation 7:14. "I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "these are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Now how do you know that we are definitely in the great tribulation period?

    "Revelation is an apochryphal book and MUST be interpreted that way. It is how God gave us His word. You need to learn how to read it."

    And do we interpret Daniel and Ezekiel and Isiaiah the same way? Those are books of prophecy as well.

    "May I suggest quite possibly the best commentary on the book of Revelation in existance."

    You may. ;-)

    "The Concordia Commentary on Revelation by Dr. Louis Brighton, available from Concordia Publishing House. If you really want to learn the truth of Revelation, you need this resource."

    I'll add it to my Christmas list.
     
  18. Zecryphon

    Zecryphon New Member

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    Being on a leash is not the same as being bound in chains is it? The bible does not say that satan is on a leash, it says that he is bound for 1,000 years. Being bound and being on a leash are two separate things. If I told you I have a criminal bound in my kitchen, are you going to think he's tied up nice and tight or that he's running around on a leash?
     
  19. seajoy

    seajoy Senior Veteran

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    And so we will be with the Lord forever.
     
  20. Melethiel

    Melethiel Miserere mei, Domine Supporter

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    Zecryphon - Not recognizing a specific seven year period, and all the dispensational baggage that goes along with it, is not the same as rejecting a tribulation. So we can easily say that there is no 7 year "Great Tribulation", but still recognize the tribulation that is currently being realized.
     
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