Is it morally correct to say that God creates evil according to Isaiah 45:7?

[Bible Highlighter]

The "this statement" of Marvin Knox's to which your above quote is a response reads, "God is not the "author" of sin as the scripture tells us. But He did predestine and ordain all that happens including sin and evil."

Without necessarily implying I agree or disagree with the assorted related discussions between the two of you to the time of this writing and more particularly rejecting your characterization of Knox's two statements as fairly representing my own argument (or I think Knox's, but he had best speak for himself), I suggest perusing my post # 11 above, which would seem to speak to the above Knox quote and your own here--I mean especially the Scriptures I cite in my post, each in their respective contexts.

Regarding some possible definitions of terms like "predestine" or "ordain," the Scriptures themselves (see my illustrations) seem to imply Knox's two statements are not necessarily a contradiction, again in part I think because divine causality is not well understood in many cases. But this point may best be made by relying on various relevant Scripture texts in tension and the belief that a harmonization between them is possible rather than in coming to a definition of terms like "predestine" and "ordain" that fully resolve--or perhaps seem to--the relevant issues in tension. While the model that best explains all the data may be preferred, it is better to accept all the data despite unresolved tensions than come to an explanatory model which down-plays or distorts the difficult. It is too easy to put God in a box of our own making even if God has truly revealed Himself to us in part.

Thank you for your words "Lookup." I do not agree with Open Theism for the very reason that is trying to drag God down to our level so as to understand Him (or to put Him in a box as you just said). However, when it comes to God's morality or goodness, there should never be any doubt to where God stands on that issue. God is love. God is good. We should also be able to explain God's goodness, too. How so? In Psalm 119:75, the Psalmist says that he knows that God's Judgments are right. Meaning, it is fully possible for me to explain God's good ways and judgments according to His Word. Such a thing should not be a mystery to me. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16). This is a good and right Judgment indeed. I can say that and have confidence in knowing that Jesus dying for me is a very good thing. It should be no different with any other of God's good judgments or ways. Both the Bible and life teaches us that if a person sets out to create an evil situation to take place whether it be directly or indirectly as their intention, then they are not a good guy. In other words, God did not set out to place evil as His ultimate goal within the creation. Evil was merely the by product of the choices made by free will agents or human beings within his creation. God did not in any way desire Adam and Eve to sin or to spread sin upon all mankind. God was merely aware of their future free will choice and God simply had a plan in action to correct the problem that man made (Which was Jesus Christ).

 

[Marvin Knox]

There is a difference between knowing something is going to happen by free will agents that He created versus say decreeing and or causing such evil to take place because you made it happen. God did not make evil to happen. That would make God immoral and that is not possible.

Although I didn't spend a great deal of time on the post you cite - it was fairly well thought out as to it's wording.

It's not right for you to put words in my mouth that I never said nor meant.

Any "making it happen" that God did was limited to doing something that He knew would have certain consequences. He did that for His own reasons.

That somethings was giving men and angel choice while knowing what would happen.

He's not just winging it. He's been working from a plan from His very first decree and before.

Do you know who the Watchers are in the Marvel Comics Universe? They are fictional alien beings that merely observe and they do not interfere.

http://marvel.com/universe/Watchers

Sure.

I know who the watchers are.

They are very similar to the absentee God created by people who don't believe in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things that happen - as taught in the scriptures.

Granted, God is real and God is not anything like them, but the point I am getting at is that God did not force a situation or outcome that He desired to take place. God made a test for Adam and Eve. But God did not interfere by the giving of such a test, though. For God did not force Adam and Eve to eat of the wrong tree and God did not prevent them from eating from it, either. Adam and Eve had the free will choice to do either the right thing or the wrong thing.

No one that I know of has said any different.

Force and other such words are used and thought of by others, maybe even some hyper Calvinists themselves, but not me.

Again, there is a difference between fate and destiny (Where no other outcome or choice was never possible) versus say God knowing what Adam and Eve were going to do once He set the ball of creation into motion. ....................... God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. It was not God's will that they sinned. God would have preferred that they did not sin, but He simply was aware that they would sin whereby they would need a Savior to save them and the rest of their offspring.

God predicting or knowing about the future (By telling us about it) does not equate with God desiring for those certain things to come to pass. God's ultimate goal is to have a relationship with free will beings who chose Him willingly whereby He will spend all eternity with them. God is going to bring an end to all evil and sin and darkness in time. It will not last forever. This lets us know that the evil things were only temporary things created only by the choice of the free will agents that He formed. God did not desire that they sinned. If God in any way declared that He was going to bring forth evil in some way (As if that was the only outcome), then God would be unrighteous. But like I said before, that is not possible because God is good and God is love.

There is no such force in God's creation like fate or chance or any other such thing.

God predestines everything that happens simply by doing the things that He does while knowing what the consequences will be for sure. If He know something will happen - it must happen for sure. What God knows will happen is the destiny of the thing that He is knowing about.

I wouldn't presume to try to read the mind of God. All I know is that whatever He does is right simply by virtue of it having been done by the righteous God. Since what He has done includes this mess we're living in, I assume that the end result will be good even if it is being brought about through evil circumstances.

He can defend Himself to you for doing so at the Judgment Seat of Christ if He chooses to do so. As for me and my house - I'm good to go just based on what I have presented in the scriptures.

This statement is a contradiction. On one hand you are saying God did not create evil and yet the other hand you are saying He set the ball in motion to let evil take place as if there was no other choice (Thereby making Him the author of evil).

I have not made any contradictory statements. I said it just the way the Bible presents it to us.

God is righteous and cannot do evil. Sin and the resultant evil can only come directly from the creation by the very definition of "missing the mark" - that mark being God who cannot deny Himself.

I did not say that there are not choices to be made. What I said was that the choices we make were known by God before we existed. Since they were "preknown" with certainty - they were predestined to take place by the original act of God in giving us those choices - and that with hardly mentioning His ongoing involvement of various kinds in history that work toward bring them to pass.

It is your estimation that God's predestination of all that takes place in a sinful world makes Him the author of evil. It is not mine and it certainly isn't God's idea on the subject.

You've got a lot of company in wanting to set up that straw man. But it is just that - a straw man.

Let's understand something here. The evil that Joseph's brothers did upon Joseph was not somehow good all of a sudden just because God decided to use their evil for a greater purpose of good. The evil that his brothers did was still wrong and sinful and God did not in any way condone or approve of their actions. God is merely able to take a bad situation and simply turn it around for His greater glory like with Christ (Who was 100% innocent) dying upon the cross.

Sure.

But the point is that He is not simply reacting to sin and making lemonade out of lemons as it were.

He's working from a plan that He has had since before time began.

As you said, "Let's understand something here."

The things I said were logical and accurate according to what the scriptures show us.

There is no reason to reword what I said into straw men and then try to refute them in that form.

The way that I presented these truths is irrefutable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Although I didn't spend a great deal of time on the post you cite - it was fairly well thought out as to it's wording.

It's not right for you to put words in my mouth that I never said nor meant.

My apologies. It was not my intent to say something that you did not really mean. However, from where I am standing or looking, it looks like you believe in a contradiction and I was merely pointing out how it doesn't make sense from my world view. Please do not take offense. It was not intended as such. If you can take a step back and see things from my perspective, maybe you will understand where I am coming from.

Now, I am not saying there is a problem with the LORD being sovereign or being in control over all things (Which would also include controlling those things that are evil). For such a thing we be within the boundaries of the LORD’s permission. For the LORD our GOD allows evil to take place. Sin and evil does not surprise the LORD. But the LORD does not control things in such a manner so that man would sin irresistibly (or out of some kind of necessity). You may not claim that God makes man to sin irresistibly, but the logic of your position (in what you said so far) sure makes it sound like you believe so (Whether that was your intended purpose or not).

Any "making it happen" that God did was limited to doing something that He knew would have certain consequences. He did that for His own reasons.

That somethings was giving men and angel choice while knowing what would happen.

He's not just winging it. He's been working from a plan from His very first decree and before.

But what do you mean by the word "decree" or "ordain", though? Is God commanding evil to take place as if that was His intended plan all along? Was there no other choice but evil to take place? Did God plan for that evil to happen? Was their a choice by the free will agents or human beings to do the right thing instead? I say this because the Scriptures say this:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (James 1:13-14).

So does God tempt man with evil? Or is man tempted by his own evil and lusts?

I know who the watchers are.

They are very similar to the absentee God created by people who don't believe in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things that happen - as taught in the scriptures.

So was God more like a Watcher in the test God gave Adam and Eve or did God get involved personally so as to sway the outcome of the test?

No one that I know of has said any different.

Force and other such words are used and thought of by others, maybe even some hyper Calvinists themselves, but not me.

There is no such force in God's creation like fate or chance or any other such thing.

God predestines everything that happens simply by doing the things that He does while knowing what the consequences will be for sure. If He know something will happen - it must happen for sure. What God knows will happen is the destiny of the thing that He is knowing about.

But when you say words like "decree" "predestine", or "ordain" it does not really leave a whole lot of room for any other options. It sounds like a situation that is going to happen no matter what. So whether it is your intention or not, it sounds like you are saying God is forcing that outcome to happen because He decreed it to take place. At least, that is what it sounds like you are saying. The outcome is still the one He desired, right? Or no? In other words, was it God's will for Adam to sin? Was it God's will for Lucifer to rebel? Or do you think God desired or wished that they both made a different choice? Do you believe that God is not willing that any are to perish but that all should come to repentance? Why would God wish that all should come to repentance when He knows not all are going to repent? Does that sound like God is decreeing the evil actions of men who are rebelling against Him?

I wouldn't presume to try to read the mind of God. All I know is that whatever He does is right simply by virtue of it having been done by the righteous God. Since what He has done includes this mess we're living in, I assume that the end result will be good even if it is being brought about through evil circumstances.

The Bible tells me the mind of God by the fact that it says that God is love and that God is good. Also, we know that Jesus says that a good tree is known by it's fruit. God's fruit is always good. God never intends any evil to take place. All sin and evil is the result of his free will agents that he created so that true love within His creation could exist. All sin and evil has it's origin in the devil, his minions, and mankind (And not God). For in order for true love to exist, one needs to create a being with true free will to accept or reject love (Which also then means evil and rebellion would then would also exist within the universe).

He can defend Himself to you for doing so at the Judgment Seat of Christ if He chooses to do so. As for me and my house - I'm good to go just based on what I have presented in the scriptures.

Well, I am not accusing God of any wrong doing or decreeing any kind of evil. So there would be no scenario of God trying to defend Himself and His actions to me. I know God is good and He always does good.

I have not made any contradictory statements. I said it just the way the Bible presents it to us.

God is righteous and cannot do evil. Sin and the resultant evil can only come directly from the creation by the very definition of "missing the mark" - that mark being God who cannot deny Himself.

I did not say that there are not choices to be made. What I said was that the choices we make were known by God before we existed. Since they were "preknown" with certainty - they were predestined to take place by the original act of God in giving us those choices - and that with hardly mentioning His ongoing involvement of various kinds in history that work toward bring them to pass.

But the choices by those free willed beings are not really important is what it actually sounds like you are saying here, though. You are saying God is specifically choosing certain scenarios that are bad or evil to take place as if it was decreed and written in stone for it to happen (That goes beyond the free will choices of his creation). Yes, God is aware of what is going to happen and He can permit a thing to pass, but nowhere does God declare evil to take place as if that is what He wanted or wished to take place. The Scriptures say that in the End, all sin, and evil will eventually be destroyed. So God is trying to restore order, love, peace, and goodness within His universe.

It is your estimation that God's predestination of all that takes place in a sinful world makes Him the author of evil. It is not mine and it certainly isn't God's idea on the subject.

You've got a lot of company in wanting to set up that straw man. But it is just that - a straw man.

But how does your view work in a real world example? Can you provide one so as to help me understand where you are coming from?

Sure.

But the point is that He is not simply reacting to sin and making lemonade out of lemons as it were.

He's working from a plan that He has had since before time began.

As you said, "Let's understand something here."

The things I said were logical and accurate according to what the scriptures show us.

There is no reason to reword what I said into straw men and then try to refute them in that form.

The way that I presented these truths is irrefutable.

Are you a Calvinist? If that is the case, then that would help explain why we are having some friction here, my friend.

In any event, I hope you understand where I am coming from, and I do not mean to offend or hurt you in any way. Also, please know that I believe God is good and loving and He in no way sets up scenarios where evil and sin was the only choice given to His creation for that scenario. I believe his creation always has a choice. God knowing the result of that choice does not mean God is decreeing the bad choice to take place (As if that was the only option ever possible).

 

[EmSw]

In any event, I hope you understand where I am coming from, and I do not mean to offend or hurt you in any way. Also, please know that I believe God is good and loving and He in no way sets up scenarios where evil and sin was the only choice given to His creation for that scenario. I believe his creation always has a choice. God knowing the result of that choice does not mean God is decreeing the bad choice to take place (As if that was the only option ever possible).

Jason, I have given the following passage several times here, but it has been ignored by those who say God is the 'first cause' of everything.

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I have given the following passage several times here, but it has been ignored by those who say God is the 'first cause' of everything.

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Great verse, brother. I pray that they carefully re-consider it and pray over it.

Thank you so much.

Blessings be unto you and your family.

 

[Look Up]

Thank you for your words "Lookup." I do not agree with Open Theism for the very reason that is trying to drag God down to our level so as to understand Him (or to put Him in a box as you just said). However, when it comes to God's morality or goodness, there should never be any doubt to where God stands on that issue. God is love. God is good. We should also be able to explain God's goodness, too. How so? In Psalm 119:75, the Psalmist says that he knows that God's Judgments are right. Meaning, it is fully possible for me to explain God's good ways and judgments according to His Word. Such a thing should not be a mystery to me. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16). This is a good and right Judgment indeed. I can say that and have confidence in knowing that Jesus dying for me is a very good thing. It should be no different with any other of God's good judgments or ways. Both the Bible and life teaches us that if a person sets out to create an evil situation to take place whether it be directly or indirectly as their intention, then they are not a good guy. In other words, God did not set out to place evil as His ultimate goal within the creation. Evil was merely the by product of the choices made by free will agents or human beings within his creation. God did not in any way desire Adam and Eve to sin or to spread sin upon all mankind. God was merely aware of their future free will choice and God simply had a plan in action to correct the problem that man made (Which was Jesus Christ).

Hi Jason0047--I very largely agree with the above, as I hope you suspected. I would argue however that your above quote does not fully take into account the verses I cited or others like them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason0047--I very largely agree with the above, as I hope you suspected. I would argue however that your above quote does not fully take into account the verses I cited or others like them.

Lets see a few then and we can discuss them. Also, you have to realize that Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. parables), too. If your interpreation is indeed true, then surely your view can also be defended by providing a real world example. However, I have the sneaky feeling that you would not be able to do that (Which is not the case with my viewpoint on this topic here).

 

[Look Up]

Lets see a few then and we can discuss them. Also, you have to realize that Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. parables), too. If your interpreation is indeed true, then surely your view can also be defended by providing a real world example. However, I have the sneaky feeling that you would not be able to do that (Which is not the case with my viewpoint on this topic here).

I don't know what you mean by your accusation or on what basis you make your claim about my "interpretation" (meaning what?) if you have yet to "see a few" of the verses I had cited. Or if you have "seen" the verses (and others like them), I'm still not seeing the relevance of your comments to the verses (and passages).

 

[Marvin Knox]

You may not claim that God makes man to sin irresistibly, but the logic of your position (in what you said so far) sure makes it sound like you believe so (Whether that was your intended purpose or not).

I don’t believe that God makes man sin irresistibly. I have never said that. My position does not even hint at Him doing that.

Men make their own choices and are held responsible for those choices.

The fact that they are predestined to happen as they do does not change that fact.

Predestination and free will are completely compatible in spite of opponents saying that they are not.

Men were predestined to nail Jesus to a tree. Men still made the choice to do as they did and they will answer for it.

Jesus was predestined to remain sinless. Jesus still made the choices He made in life and has been rewarded for them.

I have no problem reconciling those or any other things concerning predestination.

I’m sitting here having my morning coffee. I also believe that I was predestined to do exactly that. I still chose coffee over tea because I prefer the taste.

My choices play out just as I decide. The fact the God knew before I existed exactly what I would do and made the decision to create me and give me free choice doesn’t bother me at all. Just like Jesus - I rather like it.

He’s God and I’m not. I can live with that and do.

But what do you mean by the word "decree" or "ordain", though? Is God commanding evil to take place as if that was His intended plan all along? Was there no other choice but evil to take place? Did God plan for that evil to happen? Was their a choice by the free will agents or human beings to do the right thing instead? I say this because the Scriptures say this:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (James 1:13-14).

So does God tempt man with evil? Or is man tempted by his own evil and lusts?

So was God more like a Watcher in the test God gave Adam and Eve or did God get involved personally so as to sway the outcome of the test?

But when you say words like "decree" "predestine", or "ordain" it does not really leave a whole lot of room for any other options. It sounds like a situation that is going to happen no matter what. So whether it is your intention or not, it sounds like you are saying God is forcing that outcome to happen because He decreed it to take place. At least, that is what it sounds like you are saying. The outcome is still the one He desired, right? Or no? In other words, was it God's will for Adam to sin? Was it God's will for Lucifer to rebel? Or do you think God desired or wished that they both made a different choice? Do you believe that God is not willing that any are to perish but that all should come to repentance? Why would God wish that all should come to repentance when He knows not all are going to repent? Does that sound like God is decreeing the evil actions of men who are rebelling against Him?

The Bible tells me the mind of God by the fact that it says that God is love and that God is good. Also, we know that Jesus says that a good tree is known by it's fruit. God's fruit is always good. God never intends any evil to take place. All sin and evil is the result of his free will agents that he created so that true love within His creation could exist. All sin and evil has it's origin in the devil, his minions, and mankind (And not God). For in order for true love to exist, one needs to create a being with true free will to accept or reject love (Which also then means evil and rebellion would then would also exist within the universe).

Well, I am not accusing God of any wrong doing or decreeing any kind of evil. So there would be no scenario of God trying to defend Himself and His actions to me. I know God is good and He always does good.

The issues associated with the problem of evil, God’s permissive will vs. His absolute will and things of that nature exist for true Christians of any stripe.

They don’t go away for anyone simply because they don’t choose to use words like decree and ordain.

Anyone who says different is just whistling through the graveyard.

God isn’t like one of your watchers in that He is actively involved unlike them.

His Word has gone forth and He will remain forth until everything intended to happen happens. He is omnipresent in every fiber of my being as He was in that of Adam as I view things from considering various scriptures both O.O. and new..

How that plays out in the secret world I have no idea. From our standpoint we are making choices just as Adam made in the garden. That’s all we really need to know.

The Bible says that we live and move and have our being in God. I don’t pretend to know everything that that means for us. But I do know that it tells me that He’s the source of everything there is.

I am a real person and I make real choices. It’s just that I’m not God and I never will be.

But the choices by those free willed beings are not really important is what it actually sounds like you are saying here, though.

Not so.

Those choices and their consequences are the vehicle for display all that He intends to do.

But how does your view work in a real world example? Can you provide one so as to help me understand where you are coming from?

The Word of God describes things in the real world.

This is the real world. And He is the real God.

An example from this real world might be this.

It was God's good pleasure to bruise His Son. He did exactly that.

It was the free choices of men to bruise the Son of God. They did exactly that.

The creature only can sin. God cannot sin.

It is the wisdom of God to do a very certain and altogether good thing in this age. It is the wisdom of God to do that certain thing in part through the free will sins of men and angels.

Regardless of the fact that His plan for the age includes sin and evil – He tells us that, as He sees things (that’s all that matters), man is responsible.

He tells me that He is good. He has proven it to me by dying for me.

I can trust such a God when He tells me that He is working all things after the council of His good will.

Are you a Calvinist? If that is the case, then that would help explain why we are having some friction here, my friend.

I am, for want of a better way to say it, a Reformed believer. I do not believe all 5 points of Calvinism as often taught. Specifically I do not believe in limited atonement as it is often presented.

But these truths that we are discussing here in this particular thread should really be obvious for Bible believers of any stripe.

The only reason to argue with them is a matter of semantics.

Of course it may be that you are parsing words here is to try to refute anything that smacks of the dreaded Calvinism. I hope that's not the case. Truth should be accepted as truth no matter where it may lead a person.

In any event, I hope you understand where I am coming from, and I do not mean to offend or hurt you in any way. Also, please know that I believe God is good and loving and He in no way sets up scenarios where evil and sin was the only choice given to His creation for that scenario. I believe his creation always has a choice. God knowing the result of that choice does not mean God is decreeing the bad choice to take place (As if that was the only option ever possible).

You keep using terms like “no other choice”. That is your view of things and you are wrong IMO.

You can call it “predestined”. You can call it “decreed”. You can call it “permissive will”.

It doesn’t matter what you call it.

God chose to give free will to His creatures. God knew beyond shadow of doubt what every consequence would be if He did that. He didn’t simply guess. He knew.

There was in the beginning absolutely no chance that what He knew would happen - would not indeed happen.

He not only gave that free will to His creatures. He also participates in untold ways in bringing to pass the things He knew would take place.

Many of those happenings include sin and evil.

God knew all possible things as well as the actual thing that ended up being. He was unlimited as to what He would do and how He would participate in bringing it to past. He has chosen what we see here as being exactly the way He wanted it done.

I don’t care what you call it or don’t call it. Those are the facts and they are indisputable.

I personally trust God’s Word as to the fact that He can do this and still remain perfectly righteous.

It appears that you and the many people who are in line with you are depending on someone like me to give a perfect explanation as to how this can be before you will believe it.

Don’t put what you will believe in my hands to depend on my eloquence to convince you. I’m not worthy.

Believe God. Declare Him righteous in spite of how things appear.

Everything I have said makes perfect sense. It is only when you choose to layer it with words of your choosing that you get yourself into trouble.

This is taking a lot of time by the way. My words make perfect sense. If you don’t add to them or over interpret them other than the way I said them – they can stand by themselves and will have to after this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't know what you mean by your accusation or on what basis you make your claim about my "interpretation" (meaning what?) if you have yet to "see a few" of the verses I had cited. Or if you have "seen" the verses (and others like them), I'm still not seeing the relevance of your comments to the verses (and passages).

Perhaps I was a bit hasty; And for that you have my apologies. Sometimes I get in battle mode because I am up against a lot of opposition to preaching the Word like it is. But it is not my intention to not come off as hostile or not loving.

Anyways, please state your case on this topic with Scripture if it disagrees with the points I brought up (If you are interested in doing so).

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don’t believe that God makes man sin irresistibly. I have never said that. My position does not even hint at Him doing that.

Men make their own choices and are held responsible for those choices.

The fact that they are predestined to happen as they do does not change that fact.

Predestination and free will are completely compatible in spite of opponents saying that they are not.

Men were predestined to nail Jesus to a tree. Men still made the choice to do as they did and they will answer for it.

Jesus was predestined to remain sinless. Jesus still made the choices He made in life and has been rewarded for them.

I have no problem reconciling those or any other things concerning predestination.

I’m sitting here having my morning coffee. I also believe that I was predestined to do exactly that. I still chose coffee over tea because I prefer the taste.

My choices play out just as I decide. The fact the God knew before I existed exactly what I would do and made the decision to create me and give me free choice doesn’t bother me at all. Just like Jesus - I rather like it.

He’s God and I’m not. I can live with that and do.

The issues associated with the problem of evil, God’s permissive will vs. His absolute will and things of that nature exist for true Christians of any stripe.

They don’t go away for anyone simply because they don’t choose to use words like decree and ordain.

Anyone who says different is just whistling through the graveyard.

God isn’t like one of your watchers in that He is actively involved unlike them.

His Word has gone forth and He will remain forth until everything intended to happen happens. He is omnipresent in every fiber of my being as He was in that of Adam as I view things from considering various scriptures both O.O. and new..

How that plays out in the secret world I have no idea. From our standpoint we are making choices just as Adam made in the garden. That’s all we really need to know.

The Bible says that we live and move and have our being in God. I don’t pretend to know everything that that means for us. But I do know that it tells me that He’s the source of everything there is.

I am a real person and I make real choices. It’s just that I’m not God and I never will be.

Not so.

Those choices and their consequences are the vehicle for display all that He intends to do.

The Word of God describes things in the real world.

This is the real world. And He is the real God.

An example from this real world might be this.

It was God's good pleasure to bruise His Son. He did exactly that.

It was the free choices of men to bruise the Son of God. They did exactly that.

The creature only can sin. God cannot sin.

It is the wisdom of God to do a very certain and altogether good thing in this age. It is the wisdom of God to do that certain thing in part through the free will sins of men and angels.

Regardless of the fact that His plan for the age includes sin and evil – He tells us that, as He sees things (that’s all that matters), man is responsible.

He tells me that He is good. He has proven it to me by dying for me.

I can trust such a God when He tells me that He is working all things after the council of His good will.

I am, for want of a better way to say it, a Reformed believer. I do not believe all 5 points of Calvinism as often taught. Specifically I do not believe in limited atonement as it is often presented.

But these truths that we are discussing here in this particular thread should really be obvious for Bible believers of any stripe.

The only reason to argue with them is a matter of semantics.

Of course it may be that you are parsing words here is to try to refute anything that smacks of the dreaded Calvinism. I hope that's not the case. Truth should be accepted as truth no matter where it may lead a person.

You keep using terms like “no other choice”. That is your view of things and you are wrong IMO.

You can call it “predestined”. You can call it “decreed”. You can call it “permissive will”.

It doesn’t matter what you call it.

God chose to give free will to His creatures. God knew beyond shadow of doubt what every consequence would be if He did that. He didn’t simply guess. He knew.

There was in the beginning absolutely no chance that what He knew would happen - would not indeed happen.

He not only gave that free will to His creatures. He also participates in untold ways in bringing to pass the things He knew would take place.

Many of those happenings include sin and evil.

God knew all possible things as well as the actual thing that ended up being. He was unlimited as to what He would do and how He would participate in bringing it to past. He has chosen what we see here as being exactly the way He wanted it done.

I don’t care what you call it or don’t call it. Those are the facts and they are indisputable.

I personally trust God’s Word as to the fact that He can do this and still remain perfectly righteous.

It appears that you and the many people who are in line with you are depending on someone like me to give a perfect explanation as to how this can be before you will believe it.

Don’t put what you will believe in my hands to depend on my eloquence to convince you. I’m not worthy.

Believe God. Declare Him righteous in spite of how things appear.

Everything I have said makes perfect sense. It is only when you choose to layer it with words of your choosing that you get yourself into trouble.

This is taking a lot of time by the way. My words make perfect sense. If you don’t add to them or over interpret them other than the way I said them – they can stand by themselves and will have to after this.

Okay, so you believe we have free will and that we can make choices but God is one step ahead of us and will just do what He wants to do despite those free will choices.... yes?

Let's kind of narrow down the problem here.

Do you believe it is God's will and desire for anyone to sin or do evil? Yes, or no?

If you say... yes, then that would mean God approves of people doing evil.
If you say... no, then that would mean God does not approve of people doing evil (And God does not force people into a situation where sin is their only option).

Yes, God knows that any man would have eventually sinned if they were in Adam and Eve's place (or if they were under the same test). Why? Because man needs God to do what is right. Man was never meant to be alone without God. Man needs God. He has his being in God.

But God knowing about Adam & Eve's rebellion was just a temporary side effect so that true love could exist within the universe. God did not desire or approve that Adam and Eve would do evil or sin. God simply knew what their choice was going to be and He allowed it to happen. It was not the only choice available to Adam and Eve. They could have obeyed. So it was not fate as if they were locked in to disobey God. God placed in them the capacity to obey. God knowing that they would not obey does not mean God was setting them up to fail or to do evil. Adam and Eve are accountable for their own actions. For the moment you say that it was destiny or fate that Adam and Eve had to sin as a part of God's plan, is to say that God would be in approval of their evil. God has to be detached from such evil completely. Why? Because God is Holy, righteous, and good.

For to decree that sin must take place is to be in approval of sin. God did not put his stamp of approval on sin to take place in the future. God temporarily allowing sin and evil to take place (As the result of free willed beings who choose sin and evil) does not equate with God's approval of sin or God's ordaining of sin (As if that was the only option available to his free willed creatures).

 

[Marvin Knox]

Okay, so you believe we have free will and that we can make choices but God is one step ahead of us and will just do what He wants to do despite those free will choices.... yes?

You are doing it again You are telling me and everyone else what I believe.

I've already said what I believe in very plain and straight forward words. They don't need to have you reword them.

And when you reword them in a way that misrepresents them - that is not fair to your brother in Christ.

Do you believe it is God's will and desire for anyone to sin or do evil? Yes, or no?

If you say... yes, then that would mean God approves of people doing evil.

If you say... no, then that would mean God does not approve of people doing evil (And God does not force people into a situation where sin is their only option).

NO! I have never said anything different.

You are correct in saying that God does not approve of people doing evil. (Hence Hell - Duhhh)

You are the only one who has even hinted at God forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

You used the term "forced" before. I told you that I did not believe or say that and I asked you not to misrepresent me by saying that I believed things I have not said.

One more time as a brother. Please stop it.

Yes, God knows that any man would have eventually sinned if they were in Adam and Eve's place (or if they were under the same test). Why? Because man needs God to do what is right. Man was never meant to be alone without God. Man needs God. He has his being in God.

But God knowing about Adam & Eve's rebellion was just a temporary side effect so that true love could exist within the universe.

Don't go New Age or something on us. I have no idea what you mean by this.

God did not desire or approve that Adam and Eve would do evil or sin. God simply knew what their choice was going to be and He allowed it to happen. It was not the only choice available to Adam and Eve. They could have obeyed.

True.

No one but you has said otherwise. You are the only one to say that predestination means only one choice is available.

So it was not fate as if they were locked in to disobey God.

If God knew exactly what would happen if He gave man free will - those things would not be happening because of fate, chance or any other ridiculous unbiblical concept.

You are right. There was and is no such thing as fate. I have said that before.

God placed in them the capacity to obey.

True.

No one has said otherwise.

God knowing that they would not obey does not mean God was setting them up to fail or to do evil.

Again those are your words. They are not mine.

So long as you agree that God gave them the capacity to obey or not obey. God set them in a garden with a tree the fruit of which looked good but would kill them if they ate it. God told them that they would die if they ate it while they were in a state where they did not know what death meant. Then God placed the most powerful and persuasive created being in the history of the universe in the tree to tempt them ----- you can call it anything you want to call it.

It's OK with me. I'm sure God knows your heart.

Adam and Eve are accountable for their own actions.

Of course. I've said that same thing over and over again.

For the moment you say that it was destiny or fate that Adam and Eve had to sin as a part of God's plan

I don't believe in fate, whatever that is.

I believe in destiny because God refers to it.

One more time. God knew before there was anything but Him that if He gave free will to man they would sin if He put them in a certain situation. Because He absolutely knew it - there was no chance at all that they would not sin if He gave them free will and put them in that situation.

God did exactly that knowing full well what they would do. From the split second He did it their destinies were set. Since this all happened before they sinned they were PRE destined to sin. Since there is no other power in the universe that had the power to predestine their activities - the one who predestines is God and God alone.

He always claims to be the one who predestines whenever He mentions predestiny in the Word of God.

God temporarily allowing sin and evil to take place (As the result of free willed beings who choose sin and evil) does not equate with God's approval of sin or God's ordaining of sin (As if that was the only option available to his free willed creatures).

No one ever said that God approves of sin.

Ordaining of sin yes. You'd better hope that He's ordering sin and that it isn't running out of control.

We know sin is temporary because He told us so.

By the way - you keep saying that predestination means that there is only one option available. Predestination and free will are completely compatible and your saying other than that a hundred times does not make what you say true.

My words do not need to be reworded or explained the way you keep doing. They stand by themselves.

You don't believe in the sovereign predestination of all things that happen in God's creation. You believe that that would make God evil. You are not alone.

You, and many others, feel that it is your duty to change the truth presented in scripture in order to defend the honor of God. That sounds honorable enough. But I believe God would rather you just believed His Word as it presents things.

He can defend Himself.

I believe that He is all good even in the face of what He has done and is doing. I don't need to be convinced of it and I sure don't need to try to recreate Him in a more palatable light.

One last time - and this is very important.

All of the issues concerning the existence of evil in God's creation will remain for any person who believes in a good and all powerful God --- even if you do away with the words, predestine and ordain and repeat "free will" in every sentence until the end of the age.

You may think that you have done away with the difficulties with sin and evil. But you have not. They are worse with your explanation.

You are just whistling through a graveyard.

That is because rather than the sovereign God who is in total control and working all things according to a plan for the age - you teach, however inadvertently, an absentee God who is just reaching in and countering things that happen as He goes along.

I'm very comfortable with my position. I don't see how anyone can be comfortable with any other.

God worked very wisely to come up with a plan for this age wherein He can display His inherent knowledge of good and evil while making sure that the evil only proceeds from the creation in juxtaposition to His righteousness.

I'm sure from reading the Word of God that this is a one time - never to be repeated - plan for this age only. The need for knowledge concerned with the results of not obeying God will be displayed in Christ and His Church for all to see in the ages to come without having to revisit this mess over and over and over again for eternity.

Then He can get on with displaying Himself in ways that we can't even imagine in the ages to come. I can hardly wait for this age to be over.

I'm very approving of His plan - not that He needs my approval. It seems like a very good and wise plan to me.

And the way He is displaying sin and evil through the creation itself without effecting His holiness = POSITIVELY BRILLIANT - no matter what you nay-Sayers believe.

 

[Look Up]

Perhaps I was a bit hasty; And for that you have my apologies. Sometimes I get in battle mode because I am up against a lot of opposition to preaching the Word like it is. But it is not my intention to not come off as hostile or not loving.

Anyways, please state your case on this topic with Scripture if it disagrees with the points I brought up (If you are interested in doing so).

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

I understand the issues can get tangled especially with more minds engaging them. For organizational clarity I am also aware of the pressure to avoid digressions even where issues are seminal. For some relevant Scriptures I refer you again to my post # 11 on this thread (and cf. my post # 20 also). Note again that apparently we have also already agreed that in Isa. 45:7 "evil" is probably synonymous with "calamity." Otherwise note that for personal reasons I probably must take a brief hiatus from CF. May the Lord bless you as well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay, so you believe we have free will and that we can make choices but God is one step ahead of us and will just do what He wants to do despite those free will choices.... yes?

You are doing it again You are telling me and everyone else what I believe.

I've already said what I believe in very plain and straight forward words. They don't need to have you reword them.

And when you reword them in a way that misrepresents them - that is not fair to your brother in Christ.

Please pay attention to what I said. I asked a question. Asking a question is not the same as making a claim against you. For example: I can ask a man if he cheats on his wife. That is not the equivalent of me claiming that he is cheating on his wife. A question is seeking to find out information or an answer and a claim or accusation is quite another thing.

Do you believe it is God's will and desire for anyone to sin or do evil? Yes, or no?

If you say... yes, then that would mean God approves of people doing evil.

If you say... no, then that would mean God does not approve of people doing evil (And God does not force people into a situation where sin is their only option).

NO! I have never said anything different.

You are correct in saying that God does not approve of people doing evil. (Hence Hell - Duhhh)

You are the only one who has even hinted at God forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

You used the term "forced" before. I told you that I did not believe or say that and I asked you not to misrepresent me by saying that I believed things I have not said.

One more time as a brother. Please stop it.

Again, I asked a series of questions so as to figure out what you believe. There was no claim that you actually did believe that within this post. I am trying to understand what you believe. I will ask again. If God decrees or predestines evil or sin to happen how exactly is that God not forcing evil to happen? Again, I know you do not believe God forces evil to take place. But I need help in understanding where you are coming from. For where I am standing, it appears that this is the case (Even though you seem to have information that this is not the case). So I am not making a claim against you. I am asking it as a question so as to understand where you are coming from. How is it not forced evil if God is decreeing and predestining evil to take place? For decreeing or predestining something makes it sound like there was no other choice available. For there is a difference in having foreknowledge of man's future free will decisions and God decreeing and predestining evil to take place as if that was His plan all along. Again, I am not stating that you believe God forces a situation with no other choices. I am merely trying to understand how that is not the case if God predestines and decrees evil to happen.

Yes, God knows that any man would have eventually sinned if they were in Adam and Eve's place (or if they were under the same test). Why? Because man needs God to do what is right. Man was never meant to be alone without God. Man needs God. He has his being in God.

Don't go New Age or something on us. I have no idea what you mean by this.

You quoted Acts 17:28 that says, "or in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." I was merely repeating a verse you quoted. I used this verse to make a point that man was meant to be with God. I am not saying that man can tap into some kind of divine consciousness garbage or in reaching some higher level of thought. God is not a force. God is a person and we can have a relationship with Him. We move and have our being in Him because He made everything (Including us) and we can walk with the LORD by having Him live within us. My point is that God intended man to rely upon Him for all that He needs. God intended man to choose of His own free will to love God in return and to reflect that love back upon others. Not there love, but the love of God working in them.

So it was not fate as if they were locked in to disobey God.

You are the only one to say that predestination means only one choice is available.

If God knew exactly what would happen if He gave man free will - those things would not be happening because of fate, chance or any other ridiculous unbiblical concept.

You are right. There was and is no such thing as fate. I have said that before.

There are only two choices one can believe here.

#1. Man has free will to obey God or disobey God and evil is the result of man's doing or choice (With God allowing man's choice of evil to come to pass so as to bring about a greater good). God would have desired that man would have done good, but He knew his future free will choice ahead of time.

#2. Man is guided by God's design of fate. We are locked in to a destiny that God desires. Man could have obeyed to do good but God's destiny was set into motion so as to bring about a situation He desired (Whether it was good or bad). If God planned the circumstances of evil even despite man's free will choices to bring about an evil situation (Whereby no good could have ever happened), then that would be fate.

If your belief does not describe one of the beliefs systems above, you are going to have to explain it better for me.

God knowing that they would not obey does not mean God was setting them up to fail or to do evil.

Again those are your words. They are not mine.

So long as you agree that God gave them the capacity to obey or not obey. God set them in a garden with a tree the fruit of which looked good but would kill them if they ate it. God told them that they would die if they ate it while they were in a state where they did not know what death meant. Then God placed the most powerful and persuasive created being in the history of the universe in the tree to tempt them ----- you can call it anything you want to call it.

It's OK with me. I'm sure God knows your heart.

Whether it is your intention or not, what you said here lends me to believe that you are saying that God placed Satan in the garden so as to influence the outcome of Adam in disobeying God. This is not an accusation. I am asking you. Is that what you are saying here?

Adam and Eve are accountable for their own actions?

Of course. I've said that same thing over and over again.

Okay, so if Adam and Eve are accountable for their actions, then how can God predestine evil if it was their choices that brought about the evil in the first place?

I don't believe in fate, whatever that is.

I believe in destiny because God refers to it.

Fate and destiny are the same thing.

Destiny Definition:

the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.
"she was unable to control her own destiny"

• the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate.
  "he believes in destiny"
  synonyms: future, fate, fortune, doom;

Google search results for the keywords "destiny definition."

Your Dictionary also says this:

1. the seemingly inevitable or necessary succession of events
2. what will necessarily happen to any person or thing; (one's) fate
3. that which determines events: said of either a supernatural agency or necessity.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/destiny

One more time. God knew before there was anything but Him that if He gave free will to man they would sin if He put them in a certain situation. Because He absolutely knew it - there was no chance at all that they would not sin if He gave them free will and put them in that situation.

God did exactly that knowing full well what they would do. From the split second He did it their destinies were set. Since this all happened before they sinned they were PRE destined to sin. Since there is no other power in the universe that had the power to predestine their activities - the one who predestines is God and God alone.

He always claims to be the one who predestines whenever He mentions predestiny in the Word of God.
No one ever said that God approves of sin.

Ordaining of sin yes. You'd better hope that He's ordering sin and that it isn't running out of control.

God knowing what man's future free will choice was going to be does not mean God wanted that choice to actually happen. God would have preferred that Adam and Eve obeyed. But they simply did not obey. God being aware of their future free will choices does not equate with God predestining or ordaining sin to actually happen. If God in any way chose sin and evil to happen as the only course of action to take place, then God would be just as guilty. God cannot force or make or predestine a situation where evil is the only outcome. God gave Adam and Eve the choice. God knowing that choice does not equate with God desiring that choice to be a part of what He wanted or desired. God is Holy and good and He cannot desire any kind of evil to happen upon anyone. God merely allows evil to take place temporarily as a part of God's design in creating free willed beings. God did not want his creation sinning or doing evil as if it was a part of some kind of destiny or fate. God is always against sin and evil. He cannot be the author of evil (Which is implied when one says that God predestines or ordains evil or sin).

We know sin is temporary because He told us so.

By the way - you keep saying that predestination means that there is only one option available. Predestination and free will are completely compatible and your saying other than that a hundred times does not make what you say true.

My words do not need to be reworded or explained the way you keep doing. They stand by themselves.

Again, the dictionary defines "destiny" as "fate" or an event that is inevitable.

You don't believe in the sovereign predestination of all things that happen in God's creation. You believe that that would make God evil. You are not alone.

You, and many others, feel that it is your duty to change the truth presented in scripture in order to defend the honor of God. That sounds honorable enough. But I believe God would rather you just believed His Word as it presents things.

He can defend Himself.

1 Peter 1:1-2 says God elects his saints based on his future foreknowledge. Meaning, God is simply aware aware of our future free will decisions and He can declare our choice ahead of time. This does not mean God had set out to influence any kind of bad to take place by decreeing or predestining evil or sin to take place (As if that was a part of His master plan). Yes, God allowed evil to happen, but this was the origin of evil was Adam and Eve's doing and not God's doing. God would have wished they had done good and not evil. But such is the nature of creating beings who do have free will to choose.

I believe that He is all good even in the face of what He has done and is doing. I don't need to be convinced of it and I sure don't need to try to recreate Him in a more palatable light.

Such a statement suggests that you are trying to defend God in doing some kind of bad here. Is that what you are saying? Again, this is a question and not an accusation.

One last time - and this is very important.

All of the issues concerning the existence of evil in God's creation will remain for any person who believes in a good and all powerful God --- even if you do away with the words, predestine and ordain and repeat "free will" in every sentence until the end of the age.

You may think that you have done away with the difficulties with sin and evil. But you have not. They are worse with your explanation.

You are just whistling through a graveyard.

That is because rather than the sovereign God who is in total control and working all things according to a plan for the age - you teach, however inadvertently, an absentee God who is just reaching in and countering things that happen as He goes along.

No, not at all. I do not believe in Open Theism. I believe God is Sovereign and in control of most all things in His creation. However, God's Sovereignty does not over-rule a person's free will choice to choose Him or to reject Him, though. God knowing that future free will choice does not equate with God desiring evil to happen in any way. God is merely allowing it temporarily so as to bring about a greater good.

I'm very comfortable with my position. I don't see how anyone can be comfortable with any other.

If man has free will then man and not God is responsible for evil. The other alternative is that if God specifically set things up to make evil to happen in some way (No matter what man did), then God would be guilty for the evil in this world and not man. In other words, somebody has to take the blame for the origin of evil. I believe Scripture teaches that man is the one who is the creator of evil and not God; For man is going to have to answer to God for his evil. But if God forced or predestined evil to take place because He made man to inevitably do evil in a particular situation then man cannot be blamed (Because it was all pre-determined of his life).

God worked very wisely to come up with a plan for this age wherein He can display His inherent knowledge of good and evil while making sure that the evil only proceeds from the creation in juxtaposition to His righteousness.

I'm sure from reading the Word of God that this is a one time - never to be repeated - plan for this age only. The need for knowledge concerned with the results of not obeying God will be displayed in Christ and His Church for all to see in the ages to come without having to revisit this mess over and over and over again for eternity.

Then He can get on with displaying Himself in ways that we can't even imagine in the ages to come. I can hardly wait for this age to be over.

I'm very approving of His plan - not that He needs my approval. It seems like a very good and wise plan to me.

And the way He is displaying sin and evil through the creation itself without effecting His holiness = POSITIVELY BRILLIANT - no matter what you nay-Sayers believe.

What you say is confusing to me. On one hand you are saying God does not force a situation to happen (Such as evil) and yet on the other hand when you say God predestines, ordains, and decrees evil to take place. Such a statment paints a different story as if God is desiring that evil situation to take place. Granted, I am not stating here that the latter part is what you are actually saying. It just merely sounds that way by the words that you have chosen. So it would help me to understand where you are coming from so that I am not confused into thinking that way.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I am not stating here that the latter part is what you are actually saying. It just merely sounds that way by the words that you have chosen. So it would help me to understand where you are coming from so that I am not confused into thinking that way.

These posts get rather long don't they?

Here is what I believe.

God knows everything possible and always has known everything possible.

God wanted to accomplish certain things by bringing one set of those possibilities into reality. The set He chose was one of an infinite number of possible sequences. This "history of the universe" (all activities in Heaven and on Earth) is what He chose to do according to a perfect plan - His wise and perfect will - His ultimate will etc.

God chose to bring about what He wanted to accomplish through what is often called "second causes". In this case the second cause we are talking about are the sins of man brought about through the abuse of the gift of free will.

God knew that, if He gave His creation free will and put them in certain situations both initial and ongoing, certain events would assuredly follow. He didn't guess. He knew.

Some of those events were and are the sins of man and their resultant evil circumstances.

God chose to do exactly that. He created man, gave him free will, put him in an initial circumstance, and has worked in multiplied trillions of ways in every square foot of His creation through His omnipresent providential control of all things to provide exactly the ongoing circumstances that He chose beforehand to provide.

There is not a chance at all that everything that He knew would happen if He did the things that He did and is doing - would not indeed happen.

That "everything" includes the sins of man.

Call it anything you want. I call it the predestination of all things that occur in the creation of God. But these are the facts and they are irrefutable if you believe in the God of the Bible.

To you it may sound like I am accusing God of sin. I don't know how that can be since I have always been very careful to note that the sin only proceeds from the creation and not the creator. I don't know how much more clear I can be on that.

Is it a mystery how God could do this and not be the author of sin? I suppose it is. But we don't deny the truth just because you and I don't have the mind of God so that we can comprehend it perfectly.

You and I believe pretty much the same basic things. Most evangelicals and I believe pretty much the same basic things.

The difference between my belief and that of many others is that I believe that God has a specific goal in mind to accomplish in this age. I believe that He is displaying the knowledge of good and evil once for all in this age so that He can display it through His church in the ages to come without revisiting it to show the consequences over and over again in the ages o come. In that display will be all "negative" consequences of His lack of Lordship in a life - like judgment and Hell as well as the "positive" ones like reward, mercy, grace etc.

Some of that is conjecture of course.

But the point is that, whatever He is trying to accomplish, He is accomplishing it in great part through the display of sin and evil.

Not only did it not catch Him by surprise. It was part of His perfect plan from the beginning.

I have had people say that they could never worship a God like that. Perhaps that is you as well.

To which I say - I could and I do.

There should be no more conjecture about what I believe. There it is. I believe that it is altogether based on what the scriptures tell us about God and His creation.

P.S.
I believe that many people bristle against what I am saying because they associate the word predestination with Calvinism which they reject.

I believe that there is no reason for that at all.

Predestination and free will are perfectly compatible.

Doctrines like election and regeneration in order to believe have no bearing at all on the truth of God's activities as I have outlined here.

They can easily be agreed to by non-Calvinist and Calvinist alike IMO.

**** Let me just say right out front that I find this attitude being put forth that you are - just trying your best to understand this strange teaching of mine - to be more than a little disingenuous.

My beliefs have been held by some of the finest theologians in history both past and present.

My belief are the beliefs espoused by our Puritan forefathers. They are also the beliefs held by the likes of Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon and a host of other stalwarts of the faith.

In the 19th century (the "great century" of world evangelism) hardly a mission field in the world was opened up that was not pioneered by people who held my views.

My views are held by such modern greats as D.James Kennedy, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, James Montgomery Boice, J. Vernon McGree and a host of others.

I will say also that almost all of the people mentioned in this post, both from the past and the present, held and hold views much "harder" than mine in relationship to the free will of man in the scheme of things.

As I see it - it isn't that you are struggling to understand my teaching. It is simply that you disagree with me and millions of other Christians who hold similar views.

So be it. You have a lot of company.

But please don't tell me what my beliefs must be saying. I have been through them backward and forward as have thousands of better theologians than I claim to be before me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Call it anything you want. I call it the predestination of all things that occur in the creation of God. But these are the facts and they are irrefutable if you believe in the God of the Bible.

I strongly believe in the God of the Bible and yet I see nothing of what you are trying to say here, though. "God predestined evil" is not the proper and right words to use because nowhere in the Bible does it actually state that; And the word "destine" or "destiny" is associated with the word "fate."

This is what I have a problem with --------------------------> For you said, I quote: "There is not a chance at all that everything that He knew would happen if He did the things that He did and is doing - would not indeed happen.

That "everything" includes the sins of man.

Is it a mystery how God could do this and not be the author of sin? I suppose it is. But we don't deny the truth just because you and I don't have the mind of God so that we can comprehend it perfectly." ~ Quote by Marvin Knox.<------------------This quote is a big problem.​

For me, there is no mystery here. I understand it perfectly. God having the foreknowledge of Adam's free will choice does not equate with God wanting that event to actually happen that way. Scripture says this:

"Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes" (Ecclesiastes 7:29)​

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James 1:13-14).​

Sin results in death or in man perishing. But is such a thing a desire or decree by God for that to happen? No. How do we know? Scripture says this:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).​

In other words, Adam and Eve needed to repent of their sin. God did not want them to perish. For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. In other words, it is not God's choice that we do sin or evil. Meaning, God did not decree evil to take place.

#1. Could God have made a world where man just automatically obeyed Him without question? Yes. But then there would be no more free will in His creation.

#2. Could God have made a world where He pulled the strings so as to make man fall into sin? No. For if God were to do such a thing it would make God evil. God did not influence Adam and Eve to sin. Adam and Eve were drawn away by their own lusts and desires. God is good.

#3. Could God have made a world where God desired evil to be the only outcome in the Garden and yet somehow shift the blame of that evil on Adam and Eve instead? Again, no. For again, this would make God evil if He were to do that.

The Truth is that God allowing evil to exist in his universe by free willed creatures does not equate with God setting out on purpose to force evil as the only outcome or choice that was available by his free willed creation. God knowing such said choice by Adam and Eve ahead of time does not equate with God decreeing, ordaining, predestining their choice of evil (As if that was what He was planning as the only desired outcome all along). God specifically told them not to eat of the Tree. If God in any way planned for their evil to take place, then God would be just as guilty. God in no way planned for them to sin or do evil. Adam and Eve are the one's who are responsible for their sin; And they are the ones who are responsible for bringing evil into God's universe. God knowing ahead of time of such evil does not mean God approved or decreed such said evil to take place. God is good and there is no darkness in God.

Not only did it not catch Him by surprise. It was part of His perfect plan from the beginning.

I have had people say that they could never worship a God like that. Perhaps that is you as well.

To which I say - I could and I do.

But you make it sound like God planned evil, though. That God wanted evil to be the outcome and He then made it come to pass (Using man's free will to accomplish such a task). To me that does not sound like a good God (If that is what you are saying).

 

[Berean777]

Some folks think that it is morally correct to say that God creates evil according to Isaiah 45:7 in how we understand the word "evil" today.

For when we think of the word "evil" we think of the devil and sin and things that are unholy and impure. However, ...

Did God directly create evil beings?
Did God directly create sin?
Did God directly create unholy or impure things?

For is "evil" (as we understand it today) in context to what the verse is really saying?

Well, lets look at Isaiah 45:7.

Isaiah 45:7 says,
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Now, some might say that the word "evil" here is meant to be "evil" as we would understand that word today.

However, lets just look at the context of this passage without knowing what the word "evil" really means by leaving it blank. This is what it would look like:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create ______: I the LORD do all these things."

Now, lets say you were taking a test and you were asked to fill in the following based on the related information you were given above.

I would see that the opposite of light is darkness. For Isaiah 45:7 sets the standard of letting me know that God forms the light and the darkness. Light is in contrast or opposite to darkness. Okay, now that we have our structure of how this sentence is built, what is the opposite or contrast to Peace? For the next word has to contrast peace because we know Light contrasts darkness. Right? So what contrasts peace?

War, or calamity, or something that is not peaceful or calm. Does war mean something is evil? No. Good guys can fight for good causes to eliminate that which is evil or bad. So the word "evil" here is in context to what is the opposite of peace. Do you get it? This is how one reads the context of something. You look at the surrounding words and let them determine what that word is saying. One does not look at the word at face value and try and force a meaning that does not fit within the sentence. For words can look and sound the same but they can have multiple meanings. Especially during the time of the 1600's when the KJV was being written (Which influenced some later versions in their translations).

I hope what I had written here helps someone today.
And may God bless you all.

Excellent point.

The author is trying to say light in contrast to darkness and peace in contrast to removal of peace, meaning calamity.

The opposite of peace is the removal of peace, meaning calamity.

The correct translation is the English Standard version.

Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

 

[Marvin Knox]

But you make it sound like God planned evil, though. That God wanted evil to be the outcome and He then made it come to pass (Using man's free will to accomplish such a task). To me that does not sound like a good God (If that is what you are saying).

What the "facts" are follows.

God knew every detail of what would happen if He did certain things. A big part of those details are sin and evil.

Sin and evil would happen directly because of the foreknown wrong choices of men if He gave them free will.

He did all of the things that He did and is doing – knowing full well what would be the result according to His omniscient knowledge.

What He knew would happen happened.

Very early in the list of things that He did was to place His creature, to whom He had given free will, in a garden wherein He had placed a tree with the knowledge of good and evil. He told them that they would die if they ate – all the while knowing that they did not even know what dying meant. Then He place the most powerful and influential creature He had ever created in the tree knowing full well that it was in that creatures nature to temp them.

They sinned, just like He knew they would, thereby making salvation possible to show forth His mercy and grace.- and judgment necessary to show forth His holiness.

I didn’t write the book. These are the facts of the matter as we are told in the book.

In the book He tells us that He is not responsible for the sin and He tells us that men and angels are.

It seems like a mystery to me how those things can be true.. If it isn’t a mystery to you – you are a better man than all of the theologians who have wrestled with the ideas for millennia.

I choose to believe what God says about the situation both because I have no one else to cast my hope on and because I know that He died for me and I can trust Him.

You choose to just throw out the terms “man has free will” and “God allowed” and that does it for you.

Great! So be it. It doesn’t do it for me.

I think that when people do that they are merely whistling through a grave yard – not willing to state the facts in very plain words because they fear that they may offend God.

I don’t worry about offending God. He knows my heart. I tell it like it is and wrestle with the problems inherent in the truth as I find it in scripture. I’ll let God defend Himself if He finds it important to do so sometime in the future.

Now you could launch into every scripture about sin coming from man and God being holy until the rapture of the Church if you want to. I will agree with them all and then some. They don’t change the facts.

Call them by whatever theological words you want to. Or refrain from doing so and just mumble “free will” and” allowed” while hoping that the issues will go away.

I believe in all of the things you believe in. I just add one more thing to the mix. I believe that God is working from a plan according to His wisdom and that everything that happens plays a part in that plan’s execution including sin.

So long as I agree that God is without sin and that sin happens through men and angel who alone will be judged – I don’t worry about being P.C. in stating my theology openly.

*** One more time in answer to the question posed in your original post - I do not believe that it is correct to state that God created evil.

I do, however, believe that it is correct to say that He has always planned for evil to play a part in His plan for the age.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What the "facts" are follows.

God knew every detail of what would happen if He did certain things. A big part of those details are sin and evil.

Sin and evil would happen directly because of the foreknown wrong choices of men if He gave them free will.

He did all of the things that He did and is doing – knowing full well what would be the result according to His omniscient knowledge.

What He knew would happen happened.

Very early in the list of things that He did was to place His creature, to whom He had given free will, in a garden wherein He had placed a tree with the knowledge of good and evil. He told them that they would die if they ate – all the while knowing that they did not even know what dying meant. Then He place the most powerful and influential creature He had ever created in the tree knowing full well that it was in that creatures nature to temp them.

They sinned, just like He knew they would, thereby making salvation possible to show forth His mercy and grace.- and judgment necessary to show forth His holiness.

I didn’t write the book. These are the facts of the matter as we are told in the book.

In the book He tells us that He is not responsible for the sin and He tells us that men and angels are.

It seems like a mystery to me how those things can be true.. If it isn’t a mystery to you – you are a better man than all of the theologians who have wrestled with the ideas for millennia.

I choose to believe what God says about the situation both because I have no one else to cast my hope on and because I know that He died for me and I can trust Him.

You choose to just throw out the terms “man has free will” and “God allowed” and that does it for you.

Great! So be it. It doesn’t do it for me.

I think that when people do that they are merely whistling through a grave yard – not willing to state the facts in very plain words because they fear that they may offend God.

I don’t worry about offending God. He knows my heart. I tell it like it is and wrestle with the problems inherent in the truth as I find it in scripture. I’ll let God defend Himself if He finds it important to do so sometime in the future.

Now you could launch into every scripture about sin coming from man and God being holy until the rapture of the Church if you want to. I will agree with them all and then some. They don’t change the facts.

Call them by whatever theological words you want to. Or refrain from doing so and just mumble “free will” and” allowed” while hoping that the issues will go away.

I believe in all of the things you believe in. I just add one more thing to the mix. I believe that God is working from a plan according to His wisdom and that everything that happens plays a part in that plan’s execution including sin.

So long as I agree that God is without sin and that sin happens through men and angel who alone will be judged – I don’t worry about being P.C. in stating my theology openly.

*** One more time in answer to the question posed in your original post - I do not believe that it is correct to state that God created evil.

I do, however, believe that it is correct to say that He has always planned for evil to play a part in His plan for the age.

I think in your worldview it would take away from the Sovereignty of God if He did not plan evl to take place. That appears to be the big hang up that you have here. But God allowing evil to happen (and knowing it is going to happen) and letting evil rest as a choice by Adam does not take away God's control of the universe in any way. God's choice in how He set the stage and preparing a Lamb slain since the foundation of the world centered around what Adam was going to do. God is Sovereign over time and He simply is aware of Adam and Eve's future free will choices. However, if God planned for evil it would not have mattered what Adam was going to do. Their choice would mean nothing. Adam could have made the right choice and God would still just eventually wear down Adam to do the wrong thing so as to execute the plan He originally had in the beginning (Which is to have them fall so as to provide a Savior). Is that about right? Was there ever a possibility that Adam could have obeyed? Or was God playing a cruel joke on them by telling them to not eat of the wrong tree? Why do you think God was upset with them when they disobeyed? If God was planning for them to do evil and sin all along, then how could He be upset with them if that was His plan along (You know... His plan to do evil)?

In other words, what you believe does not make any sense. Especially in light of Scripture (that I have shown so far). There is a contradiction in your belief system here. For on one hand you are saying God is not the author of evil. However, on the other hand you are saying God planned evil (Which would in fact make him the author of evil).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Excellent point.

The author is trying to say light in contrast to darkness and peace in contrast to removal of peace, meaning calamity.

The opposite of peace is the removal of peace, meaning calamity.

The correct translation is the English Standard version.

Thank you.