Is homosexuality a sin?

Homosexually sin

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OllieFranz

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I believe it's a sin.

Nowhere does the Bible call sin something which is a part of who a person is or something which involves no volition or rebellion.

The Bible calls the act of "man-lying" a sin. Also acts such as rape, adultery, etc. which are sins when they occur between the sexes, are just as much sin when they occur within one sex. Likewise "lust in your heart" (an act of the will, which is more than simple attraction; more even than mere temptation) is a sin of thought.

Nor does it name any "homosexual" activity other than "man-lying," or acts that are sinful for reasons not involving homosexuality, as sin. However, in examining my own life, Romans 14:14 and 14:23 apply.

But in judging someone else's sins, Romans 14:10-13, James 4:11-12 and Matthew 7:1-5 apply.
 
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2 King

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I personally believe homosexuality isn't right. Why dosen't the Bible just say instead that "Homosexuality is not an abomanation at all"? why does it go to say it's an abomanation? Why even call it that if it's ok?

no one can answer those questions, the only thing you can do is pull up verses where it says "it's an abomination for a man to wear women's close and a women to wear man's" and then say, we do that anyway so......
If it's so hard to obey God how 'bout we just throw it all out the window. Might as well take it a step further cause that's where it's gunna go sooner or later. It's gunna progress to inappropriate behavior with animals and pedophilia
 
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OllieFranz

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You didn't read my post, did you? You just reacted to the fact that I did not agree with the OP. Yes, "man-lying" is a sin. But homosexuality is not "man-lying."

So because gluttony is a sin, all hunger is a sin ? Because idolatry is a sin, all worship is a sin? Because murder is a sin, all anger is a sin? Because adultery is a sin, all heterosexuality is a sin?
 
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2 King

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I read your post, I should have been more specific in the fact that I was speaking to all who adhere to "Pro-homosexuality"so nothing you said aplies to me.
I will edit it post # 3 to make it more clear.

P.S. If you or anyone else aren't going to answer my questions don't bother posting your questions.
 
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liars_paradox

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dosen't mean it's right. Say all you want, it's still wrong. Why dosen't the Bible just say instead that "Homosexuality is not an abomanation at all"? why does it go to say it's an abomanation? Why even call it that if it's ok?

Because, an abomination isn't the same thing as you might imagine it as an English speaker as it was meant to the Israelites. The same word in Hebrew is also translated into "unclean" in English. So, the idea is that anything that makes one unclean is an abomination in the eyes of God.
This not only would include homosexuality, but not washing your hands before you eat (I keep writing these things and no one ever seems to notice). Even though, washing your hands has practical purposes on Earth it isn't something one has to worry about spiritually. God gave these laws to Moses so that the Hebrews would know how to live and so that they might be able to control themselves better rather than giving into their inner animal.

But, these aren't the Laws of God like in the sense that the Pharisees saw them as. These are the Laws of men as Jesus pointed out in Mark 7.

You and no one else can answer those questions, the only thing you can do is pull up verses where it says "it's an abomination for a man to wear women's close and a women to wear man's" and then say, we do that anyway so......
I have just now, as I have on other threads.
It's an abomination to eat pork, shell fish, using systems of measure instead of the Hebrew system (American Standard and Metric would both be dishonest), shaving your beard, etc. All are abominable in the eyes of God. Yet, it doesn't make rational sense that we strictly follow these laws, does it?

If it's so hard to obey God how 'bout we just throw it all out the window. Might as well take it a step further cause that's where it's gunna go sooner or later. It's gunna progress to inappropriate behavior with animals and pedophilia

Don't you think that you're just being a little paranoid by assuming too much? Homosexuality might be offensive to God, but the problem with being sure about this type of thing is in trying to understand which of the Laws of Leviticus are still applicable to Christians today and which aren't.

In ANY CASE, you still can't use your faith to stop others from getting married. Paul in 1 Cor. 5:12 "What business of mine is it to judge others outside the church?" If they're not in your faith, you have no right to tell them what to do. However, for those who are Christian, you do have the right to tell them that what they're doing is wrong. This way you can build them up and remove stumbling blocks for them.

But, those who don't share your faith won't care because thier motivation to do what's "moral" isn't the same as yours. You're only pushing others away from your faith when you use it to control them. This is why gay-marriage shouldn't be banned. It causes those who aren't Christian to view Christians as being controlling, intolerant, hateful, and generally evil in their eyes. If you don't have family and relatives who aren't Christian and even have some 'justified' hatred towards them then you wouldn't know. But, I do and I know how many do use their faith to justify acts of hatred towards others.

For instance, outright calling another person's religion a "lie" and that their loved ones are ALL going to Hell in such an insulting manner as you make NO attempts at being tactful, is one big hot-button with people. Yet, the wrong people take it upon themselves to be spokes-persons of Christ and thus making things harder for those to make genuine attempts at reaching others outside of Christendom.

Another point I want make about the wrong people, is a serious health issue which affects the "Bible Belt" of America. It is within these states that conservative thinking manages to get the most support. Yet, it is also within these states that many STD's are at it's worst. Additionally, it's also where obesity is affects Americans the most.

The whole point of abstaining from gluttony and pre-marital sex is so that we don't allow ourselves to act like animals and live in a society where we can't trust eachother. Yet, many Christians seem unable to control themselves, especially when they're young. How many of us are aware of those who are sexually immoral or are gluttons and yet still strongly oppose gay marriage? We know that some of us have no right to place judgement on others, but we do it anyways for our own selfish reasons.

This is why we can't tell others who don't have the same faith as us what to do, especially when it comes to using our own faith as justification. If you believe that the Bible has authority over our lives, then you know you can't keep non-Christians from doing what they think is right, unless they're causing you harm. Using your faith to correct the behavior of those outside of your faith immoral according to our own Scripture. As Christians, we can only correct the behavior of other Christians.
 
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OllieFranz

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I read your post, I should have been more specific in the fact that I was speaking to all who adhere to "Pro-homosexuality"so nothing you said aplies to me.
I will edit it post # 3 to make it more clear.

P.S. If you or anyone else aren't going to answer my questions don't bother posting your questions.

Except that "all who adhere to 'Pro-homosexuality'" [which apparently means anyone who does not treat homosexuals as monsters instead of human beings] do not say what you claim all of us say. There are some who make arguments similar to your strawman, but even for them, that is not the only argument, or even the main one.

Plus, you have not addressed the fact that homosexuality ≠ "man-lying" just as hunger ≠ gluttony, worship ≠ idolatry, anger ≠ murder, etc.

And although I could apply your PS back on you, since You did not respond to my post, but I will answer your questions.

Why dosen't the Bible just say instead that "Homosexuality is not an abomanation at all"?

Because there is a taboo (a more correct translation of "toevah" than "abomination") against "man-lying, which is a sin that can only be committed by a man against another male.

why does it go to say it's an abomanation?

It does not. "man-lying" is not homosexuality.
no one can answer those questions, the only thing you can do is pull up verses where it says "it's an abomination for a man to wear women's close and a women to wear man's" and then say, we do that anyway so......
If it's so hard to obey God how 'bout we just throw it all out the window. Might as well take it a step further cause that's where it's gunna go sooner or later. It's gunna progress to inappropriate behavior with animals and pedophilia

So do you never eat pork and shellfish? Do you never marry a divorced woman? Do you never socialize with unbelievers? These are all "toevah"

Acts of inappropriate behavior with animals are forbidden, but they are not labeled "toevah." Neither pedophilia nor any acts associated with it are mentioned in the Bible. In fact, the Talmud and other ancient rabbinical commentaries on the Bible speak of boys marrying at asge nine and girls at age three! These acts are wrong, not because they are Biblically taboo, but because they exploit and usually physically harm living beings who cannot consent.
 
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HaloHope

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Nope not a sin. Homosexuality is an orientation, therefore is not inherently sinful. Some homosexual acts may be sinful such as casual sex, cheating on a same-sex partner etc... (exactly the same as some hetrosexual acts may be sinful) but as a whole homosexuality is not sinful just like hetrosexuality is not as a whole sinful.
 
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NaLuvena

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Nowhere does the Bible call sin something which is a part of who a person is or something which involves no volition or rebellion.

The Bible calls the act of "man-lying" a sin. Also acts such as rape, adultery, etc. which are sins when they occur between the sexes, are just as much sin when they occur within one sex. Likewise "lust in your heart" (an act of the will, which is more than simple attraction; more even than mere temptation) is a sin of thought.

Nor does it name any "homosexual" activity other than "man-lying," or acts that are sinful for reasons not involving homosexuality, as sin. However, in examining my own life, Romans 14:14 and 14:23 apply.

But in judging someone else's sins, Romans 14:10-13, James 4:11-12 and Matthew 7:1-5 apply.

Just for clarification, what is your definition of homosexuality? From reading your posts, it seems that you do not equate "man-lying" (as you call it) with homosexuality.
 
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OllieFranz

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Just for clarification, what is your definition of homosexuality? From reading your posts, it seems that you do not equate "man-lying" (as you call it) with homosexuality.

No, I don't.

Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. It is part of a person's personality, part of his psychological makeup. It is the one of the parts that determine whether he finds another person attractive, especially (but not necessarily exclusively) sexually attractive. Nowhere does the Bible condemn a person for his personality alone. Sins are always acts. (Not necessarily actions. Besides actions there are also acts of the will, which include sins of thought, and acts of chosen inactivity, which include sins of omission.)

Some people try to honor the distinction between orientation and acts by saying that a homosexual orientation is not forbidden, but that "homosexual acts" are. This is trivially true -- there are acts that are both "homosexual" and forbidden, so (some) "homosexual acts" are forbidden. But it is an extremely misleading statement. As stated, it implies that there is a clearly defined group of acts called" homosexual acts, and that every member of that group of acts is sin.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:30 condemn an act which the ancient rabbis called "man-lying." In two of his letters, Paul provides a list of sinners. Although he lists people, he identifies them and groups them by acts they have done. One group he identifies with a word that does not appear in any earlier Greek literature. It seems he may have invented the word, compounding it out of roots that mean "man" and "bed." These "man-bedders" may be those who have committed the sin of "man-lying." The presence of the two root words in the LXX (the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures best known at the time of Paul) at Leviticus 20:13 lends credence to the identification of the two terms.

Man-lying is a sexual sin. It is committed by a man on another male. The ancient rabbis are agreed that it requires a specific particular action, and that in a given incident only one partner, the "active" one is guilty of the sin. In addition, the grammar, which does not translate fully into English suggests there may be other conditions. It may involve some degree of coercion or force, or it may involve pagan idolatry. But these additional conditions are not confirmed. In any case, not every "homosexual act" is man-lying, and even though "man-lying" is a sin, only half of those involved in an act of "man-lying" are committing that sin.
 
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David Brider

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Just for clarification, what is your definition of homosexuality? From reading your posts, it seems that you do not equate "man-lying" (as you call it) with homosexuality.

Homosexuality is a sexual orientation; it's a tendency to be physically and romantically attracted to people of the same gender as oneself.

"Man-lying", whatever that means (and the wording is actually rather vague)...might simply mean male-male sex. In which case, it's something that some homosexuals do (male, sexually active homosexuals). But certainly not all homosexuals engage in male-male sex, and not all who engage in male-male sex are homosexuals, so to assume that verses which speak of "man-lying" are necessarily condemnatory of homosexuality, isn't a Biblically sound argument.

David.
 
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AMR

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Sin is “any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God” (1Jo_3:4; Rom_4:15), in the inward state and habit of the soul, as well as in the outward conduct of the life, whether by omission or commission (Rom_6:12-17; Rom_7:5-24). Sin is not a mere violation of the law of our constitution, nor of the system of things, but an offense against a personal lawgiver and moral governor who vindicates his law with penalties. Some sins in themselves, and by reason of various aggravations, are more heinous in the sight of God than others (Jn. 19:11; 1 Jn. 5:16).

Since God, speaking through the inspired prophets authoring the books of the bible, declared homosexuality a sin, then it is a sin.
See: Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9,10; 1 Timothy 1:10.

Thus, homosexuality is just one of a litany of the decay of the perfect moral state found in original creation.

As all sinners, homosexuals can be Christians. All sin is objectionable to God. Since homosexuality is often practiced openly ("in your face"), the reaction by some who have wandered off the “love thy neighbor” reservation is over the top. It may also be the case that anyone that seems to revel in their sin seems defiant or disingenuous, if they are a self-professed Christian. I believe that the true Christian homosexual struggles daily with their sinful nature.

Some resources regarding homosexuality and the bible to help you understand the issue or the reaction of others:

Myths About Homosexuality:
Homosexual Myths

Theology and Homosexuality:
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/homotheo.html

Happiness to Christians is more than the needs of the flesh. Homosexuals must continue to pray for strength to resist their urges and strive to be obedient to the scriptures.

AMR
 
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David Brider

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Since God, speaking through the inspired prophets authoring the books of the bible, declared homosexuality a sin, then it is a sin.
See: Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9,10; 1 Timothy 1:10.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but if you see those verses as referring to homosexuality, how are you defining homosexuality?

David.
 
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AMR

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I hope you don't mind me asking, but if you see those verses as referring to homosexuality, how are you defining homosexuality?
The verses are perspicuous. If you have a point to make I would prefer you just make it and I will do my best to respond. I read your post above and find the attempt to separate orientation from physical acts to hint that the former is not condemned by Scripture as specious. To cut to the chase, Adam sinned as soon as he thought about biting the apple. ;)

Thanks,
AMR
 
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David Brider

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The verses are perspicuous.

Hardly. There're all sorts of questions about them. For example, what exactly does "lying with a man as with a woman" mean? It's widely taken to mean "having sex with a man," but it doesn't say that, and the writer of Leviticus 18:22 had spent a dozen verses prior to that one giving various injunctions against having sex with various people or groups of people, so why all of a sudden the weird change to this clunky construction, "do not lie with a man as with a man" (technically, IIRC, "do not lie with a man the lyings-of a woman")? What did the writer mean by it?

Most importantly, though, how do any of those verses relate to homosexuality?

If you have a point to make I would prefer you just make it and I will do my best to respond.

No particular point, just the question I asked you - how are you defining homosexuality?

I read your post above and find the attempt to separate orientation from physical acts to hint that the former is not condemned by Scripture as specious.

Why specious? Since clearly not every heterosexual is sexually active, and not every homosexual is sexually active, and not every bisexual is sexually active, clearly there is a separation between sexual orientation and sexual activity. The Bible has a fair bit to say about the latter, but nothing to say about the former (unsurprisingly, given that the concept of sexual orientation didn't emerge until the mid 19th century).

To cut to the chase, Adam sinned as soon as he thought about biting the apple. ;)

Just as it stands, I'm not entirely convinced by that line of thought - it ties in with a very rigid reading of the sermon on the mount, but I suspect that God, at least, allows more leeway between the actual moment of experiencing temptation and the succumbing to temptation. In your example, had Adam said, "well, I'd like it...but I'd better not," would he still be as guilty as if he'd said, "well, I'd like it...*yum*"?

Applying you're reasoning to homosexuality, or to sexual orientation in general, also doesn't stand up. What "thought" do you associate with any given sexual orientation? In my experience, and my understanding of the experiences of other people, it tends to be a case of, "oh, I like the look of that person, they're pretty/handsome/rather attractive really." What sin, exactly, does a person commit when those thoughts go through a person's mind?

David.
 
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OllieFranz

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Ask Mr Religion said:
The verses are perspicuous. If you have a point to make I would prefer you just make it and I will do my best to respond. I read your post above and find the attempt to separate orientation from physical acts to hint that the former is not condemned by Scripture as specious. To cut to the chase, Adam sinned as soon as he thought about biting the apple.

Hardly. There're all sorts of questions about them. For example, what exactly does "lying with a man as with a woman" mean? It's widely taken to mean "having sex with a man," but it doesn't say that, and the writer of Leviticus 18:22 had spent a dozen verses prior to that one giving various injunctions against having sex with various people or groups of people, so why all of a sudden the weird change to this clunky construction, "do not lie with a man as with a man" (technically, IIRC, "do not lie with a man the lyings-of a woman")? What did the writer mean by it?

Most importantly, though, how do any of those verses relate to homosexuality?



No particular point, just the question I asked you - how are you defining homosexuality?



Why specious? Since clearly not every heterosexual is sexually active, and not every homosexual is sexually active, and not every bisexual is sexually active, clearly there is a separation between sexual orientation and sexual activity. The Bible has a fair bit to say about the latter, but nothing to say about the former (unsurprisingly, given that the concept of sexual orientation didn't emerge until the mid 19th century).



Just as it stands, I'm not entirely convinced by that line of thought - it ties in with a very rigid reading of the sermon on the mount, but I suspect that God, at least, allows more leeway between the actual moment of experiencing temptation and the succumbing to temptation. In your example, had Adam said, "well, I'd like it...but I'd better not," would he still be as guilty as if he'd said, "well, I'd like it...*yum*"?

Applying you're reasoning to homosexuality, or to sexual orientation in general, also doesn't stand up. What "thought" do you associate with any given sexual orientation? In my experience, and my understanding of the experiences of other people, it tends to be a case of, "oh, I like the look of that person, they're pretty/handsome/rather attractive really." What sin, exactly, does a person commit when those thoughts go through a person's mind?

David.
The temptation is not the sin. There is such a thing as a sin of thought":

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:27-28

But we know that Jesus, who was without sin, was tempted. So there has to be a second element beyond just temptation for a thought to become a sin.

Likewise, there are states before temptation. Consider gluttony: There is the sin of over-eating, of "pigging out." There is also the sin of thought that precedes the sin of deed, and the temptation before that. But there are also states before the temptation, such as appetite and hunger. And before that is the biological need for food. None of these are sins or even temptations. It is possible to choose to do acts that are based on these states and not sin. In fact, for most people, it is necessary to life to act on these impulses.

It is similar when it comes to sexuality. Paul recognized the biological necessity of possessing a healthy sex drive. One does not avoid sin by denying one's sexuality, but by controlling it, by channeling it into healthy, non-sinful directions. "It is better to marrry than to burn." (1 Corinthians 7:9)
 
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BlackJack77

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Of course it is. The Scriptures tell us so. There is no way around it, unless we want to enter into fables that we wish to believe. "Orientation" is a crock and a crutch. We are all sin oriented BEFORE coming to Christ, afterward we should be Christ oriented and righteousness oriented, not oriented in our particular cross. We just don't say, "oh well, this is my cross and it can't change" That is a lie from satan. It is his will to keep us bound in whatever stronghold we might be bound in, but the truth is that Jesus came to set the captives free. He whom the Son makes free is free indeed. It doesn't matter if you are being held captive by homosexual tendencies and strongholds and/or spirits of perversion or held captive by inappropriate contentography, or drugs or alcohol, or by pathological lying, adultery, fornication, anger, wrath etc., Jesus is willing and ABLE to deliver us from our transgressions and give us a NEW nature, which is the righteousness of God in HIM. If we deny this, then we deny the One who came to set us free, and render Him powerless over our sin, because we have elevated our sin as more powerful than He is and we choose our fleshly will over His, and leave no room for the Holy Spirit to transform us--none at all.


Holding fast to the word of Truth,
Jack
 
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