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Is Holiness Possible Without Yeshua

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by AbbaLove, Jan 2, 2014.

  1. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Guest

    In the Temple there was the Holy of Holies, the Inner Court and the Outer Court. The B'riyt HaHhadashah (Brit Chadash) implies that Messianic Judaism Believers now have direct access to the Holy of Hollies.

    Is Messianic Judaism of one mind that true Holiness is only attainable with the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit and that the keeping of the Ten Commandments is only possible with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
     
  2. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Nope.

    Jesus Christ is the LORD, and no righteousness can be attained apart from the LORD.
     
  3. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Guest

    Such a Bold Lion. :) Where were you when Christians were being fed to your ancestors.

    Weren't Noah, Job, Abraham and others considered righteous in the Tanakh. Was righteousness equated as Holiness before Yeshua's atonement for our sins? If so then why not now?

    Is a Christian even allowed to offer any insightful teaching in this Messianic Judaism forum? If not then why did you take it upon yourself to become a spokesperson for Messianic Judaism's view on Holiness (just a thought :help:)
     
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    It is something I can agree with.:thumbsup:
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    And the depth of what is said, is not enough to truly understand, that it is in agreement with OP,
     
  6. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    I always thought holiness and righteousness were the same thing. That's why I substituted holiness for righteousness in my original post.

    Unless I am mistaken, but isn't this a discussion forum where all who abide by the rules are allowed to offer their own perspective on the matter?

    Have I become the spokesman for MJs because I was first to respond?



    *note to self* don't be the first to respond to any of Abbalove threads.
     
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Both of you are not carrying the correct icons.
     
  8. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Guest

    Yet, it seems there are Spirit-filled Christians that find it impossible to keep the Ten Commandments (or don't think they need to keep them). Does any one know of any Messianic Jew that professes to keeping all Ten Commandments or is it a given that it's humanly impossible, thus the reason for Yom Kippur.

    The Question Begs: Are Messianic Jews Holier than non-Torah Christians in that Messianic Jews at least strive to follow as many commandments as possible? What to you is a life style of true Messianic Holiness that may differ from mainstream Christianity?
     
  9. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Aren't MJs considered as Christians?
     
  10. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    "Peculiar people" comes to mind.
     
  11. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    While righteousness is necessary for holiness to rest upon the person. Holiness is the fruits of the spirit in full glory.
     
  12. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Thanks for the correction.
     
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Good thing that His robe of righteousness covers our failings. We just need to be better over comers.
     
  14. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius New Member

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    I don't say this to offend in any way, but the question is about what religion is the correct religion, not a question about two different sects of a religion.

    The Messiah of Christianity is not the same Messiah of Messianic Judaism.

    There are two separate Holy cities, two separate sets of laws, 2 separate Sabbaths, 2 separate sets of feast days, 2 separate ,completely different religions.

    it would just about be the same to ask what the difference is between a Muslim than a Messianic.

    I suppose most Messianics may not see it as I see it, so I don't speak for everyone.

    It is my firm belief that Christianity will repent and then convert, and then we could talk of a Holy spirit.

    I lived 35 years of my life convinced that I was led by the Holy spirit when I was a Pentecostal, but then I converted and I would say that I never had the Holy spirit until I converted.

    I suppose that there may be a spirit of love that may lead many of different religions, and I believe that God is leading the ways of many Christians, but I don't at all connect the giving of the Holy spirit on Shavuot with what Christians claim to have now.

    I would have to ask the question,'' Does God give his Holy spirit to Hindus and Muslims, and other religions?''

    If that answer is no, then I would have to tell the Christian,'' please convert to the faith and religion of Jesus.''

    I am not considered to be of the same religion by any Christian I know, they would all say that I do not follow the same Messiah as they do, and it doesn't offend me, cause I believe its correct.
     
  15. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius New Member

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    I would have to say that I don't believe anyone has the Holy spirit the way it was given at Pentecost in these days, I certainly don't.

    But I do believe that a spirit can be obtained that comes to a person to teach him many things, and to lead him to whatever he is to learn.


    This is what I experienced, a spirit that came and made me absolutely crazy for about two years because I did not know what was happening.

    It still may be, that I might just be crazy, certainly the people who know me think I am crazy, and I somewhat trust the people I know.

    But then again, maybe I am not crazy, time will tell.
     
  16. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    'Holiness' simply means being set apart (set aside) from sin and wordly matters to (for) the Lord, in a Biblical sense.

    Therefore, the reality is that there are varying degrees of 'holiness' - varying degrees to which people are set apart in their lives from sin and/or worldly matters. As NONE of us lives a life totally free from either, none of us can claim to be entirely Holy, though many attain to it. If we could be Holy, in its real sense, there would be no point in Yeshua having laid down his life for us as we would be free from our propensity to choose to sin.

    I like the typo in the OP - access to the holy of hollies -as some people have been celebrating Christmas :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  17. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Guest

    It wasn’t so much a typo as I never really thought of Holy as being plural, but you have spurred me onward.

    Thank You!

    In that the inner court and outer court are part of the temple then they also are Holy. Got me thinking about there being three degrees of Holiness and how these holinesses :) may apply to us: The outer court, the inner court and the Holiest of the three Holies.

    Would appreciate if you might suggest other scriptures in Torah (or NT) or your own revelatory insight as to how this may apply to: (1) Our own outer court of Holiness; (2) Our inner court of Holiness; and (3) Entering into the most Holy of Holies.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2014
  18. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Guest

    Being that visionary brought up the subject this may be as good of a place to find out the intent of her comment.

    When I first started posting I thought Lulav was posting as being "Protestant," but now no particular faith icon is indicated. What's with visionary concluding that neither Lion King or myself are "carrying the correct icons." Is this kind of biased opinion even condoned at Christian Forums?

    Because visionary choose not to send me a PM, it may be best to see how others interpret her comment. In other words what is the correct faith icon that visionary believes both of us should shed our incorrect "Christian" identity being replaced with visionaries correct icon ?

    As one conservative Jewish man told me a year ago, "There are 'Christians' and then there are 'Christians'" implying that he found me to be reasonable. If this thread or any of my posts as a "Christian" are not acceptable please let me know and I'll change it to "Protestant" or whatever is more "correct" in this forum than Christian :)
     
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Nice theological definition, but not the reality in His Presence. Set-Aparts happen when one in living in His Presence which is Holiness. If this is a case of name and claim, it won't hold water in His Presence.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    This is congregational forum area that are safe havens for those of that particular faith, as MJ members can post here freely without the rest of Christidum going down our throats about what we believe to be true. If we were in GT area, then free reign of any opinion from any member pervades. Switching to the MJ icon doesn't change your faith, while it does allow greater freedom to post in this corner of CF and it is best to honest about your faith. I think that you have been heading in our narrow path, but due to CF congregational rules, you may only fellowship and ask questions under present icon.
     
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