Is God sovereign over the Paris shootings?

[Hammster]

Was He sovereign during the Holocaust? If not, why would he be for Paris? If so, why wouldn't He be for Paris.

While we are at it, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Of course He was sovereign.

And how big are angels?

 

[RDKirk]

Of course He was sovereign.

And how big are angels?

As big as they need to be to carry out God's specific command.

 

[com7fy8]

Arminians teach that evil activity happens by mere permission of God.

Well, there are people who say that because God loves us He gives us free will to do the awful things people do. But if you are a father . . . do you love your child by letting him or her run into the street or do drugs and break rules of the house?

"For whom the LORD loves He chastens" (in Hebrews 12:6).

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

So, if people are being allowed to keep on in evil activity, they have a problem.

Was He sovereign during the Holocaust?

Of course He was sovereign.

The holocaust and the Paris terrorist attacks can show us that it is a good idea to do only what it is worth dying to do. And these disasters can show how we need to always obey how our Father takes care of us.

Because if we do not go where He wants us, we are outside His care and protection. If you go on a safari and ignore your guide's advice, you could walk into the middle of a pride of lions or get gored by a Cape buffalo coming out of the bush at you after you have wounded it. Ones have wounded ISIS, and now they are coming out of the bushes; be ready for what comes with wounding a wild animal.

If humans are capable of murdering their own unborn, so they can have the lives they want, I would say do not be surprised if evil religious people can kill and torture others, in order to enforce what they want. Humans are like this, already, in all countries . . . as we have seen in Germany, how the United States has done things in order to take lands from sovereign peoples, and now ISIS. The United States has in past history done the same sort of thing, I consider. This is how things work in Satan's kingdom.

Going back, I remember how I was fine with American troops taking down Saddam Hussein. But with him out of the way, ISIS has been able to set up. So, the world can work in its sort of "mysterious ways" to help its own.

Also, about the Holocaust . . . were the Jews obeying their Messiah Jesus, or were they going to Germany on their own, or because of being dispersed because of their rebellion; were they confessing their Messiah Jesus, or living in rebellion? The early scriptures are very clear that the Jews were God's people and so they were not to form alliances with people who were not honoring God. And, like I offer > if you rush into something in order to get what is for you only, you are operating in Satan's kingdom and so consequences aren't going to be fair. Sin is not fair > a little child can in a brief moment of foolishness ignore Mommy and run into the street and be killed or maimed; no, this is not fair; but if you ignore our Father and refuse to obey how our Father would take care of you, you live outside His care; and outside His care you are where the consequences are not going to be fair.

Plus, by the way, in case you are busy with "judging God" for not judging evil people . . . God's first priority is judging His own children!!! > 1 Peter 4:17. Therefore, if you yourself are busy with criticizing God and judging others, instead of seeking His evaluation and correction of you > you're missing out > Hebrews 12:4-11.

But even if you are obeying how our Father cares for us, it could be that God will lead you to where you could be killed. But if you die while being God's child and doing His will, He brings you to better and better >

"The righteous perishes,
.And no man takes it to heart;
.Merciful men are taken away,
.While no one considers
.That the righteous is taken away from evil."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .(Isaiah 57:1)

I see, among other things about the crucifixion of Jesus, how Jesus considered it worthwhile to suffer and die like He did, so He could get out of this evil world, and be "home" with our Heavenly Father. So, it would be worthwhile to go through anything, in order to with God.

So, if people are dying in a bad way, not benefitting from dying . . . it is "silly" to blame God > "fear of death" is slavery to Satan, according to what I see in Hebrews 2:14-15. And ones in slavery to Satan can have a way of blaming God when people die or go through hard things which their own sin made them available to suffering.

"Good understanding gains favor,
.But the way of the unfaithful is hard."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Proverbs 13:18)

 

[Job8]

Calvinists teach it happens according to God's appointment and by His own hand. Why He appoints and causes such things is a separate question although related.

The Bible does not teach that God is responsible for sin and evil. So if that is indeed what Calvinists teach, they need to make a major revision in their thinking, since to the rest of us it would be blasphemous. God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all (1 Jn 1:5). Any teaching that violates this truth is not from God.

 

[Job8]

Well, there are people who say that because God loves us He gives us free will to do the awful things people do. But if you are a father . . . do you love your child by letting him or her run into the street or do drugs and break rules of the house?

"For whom the LORD loves He chastens" (in Hebrews 12:6).

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

So, if people are being allowed to keep on in evil activity, they have a problem.

It is never a good idea to pull Scripture out of context (which has been done above, and has nothing to do with the issue).

So let's back up once more and see how God's sovereignty ALLOWS sin and evil in this world.

1. God is indeed sovereign over the whole universe.

2. Within His sovereignty He gave both men and angels free will -- the ability and capacity to make moral choices which were either good or evil.

3. Both Lucifer and Adam made evil choices and God ALLOWED them to do so.

4. There were (and are) serious consequences to evil choices. The consequence of sin is death (physical and eternal). All evildoers will ultimately face the consequences.

5. God did not stop Cain from murdering Abel, neither did He stop Herod from slaughtering the innocents. He did not stop all the tyrants from their evil deeds, and He did not stop the Islamic jihadists from their evil deeds.

6. Is God still sovereign? Absolutely. Did he cause the evildoers to do their evil deeds? ABSOLUTELY NOT. To claim that God is responsible for sin and evil is to blaspheme God.

 

[Hammster]

So to say God was responsible for the cross is to blaspheme God.

Oh...wait.

 

[RDKirk]

Well, there are people who say that because God loves us He gives us free will to do the awful things people do. But if you are a father . . . do you love your child by letting him or her run into the street or do drugs and break rules of the house?

"For whom the LORD loves He chastens" (in Hebrews 12:6).

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

So, if people are being allowed to keep on in evil activity, they have a problem.



The holocaust and the Paris terrorist attacks can show us that it is a good idea to do only what it is worth dying to do. And these disasters can show how we need to always obey how our Father takes care of us.

Because if we do not go where He wants us, we are outside His care and protection. If you go on a safari and ignore your guide's advice, you could walk into the middle of a pride of lions or get gored by a Cape buffalo coming out of the bush at you after you have wounded it. Ones have wounded ISIS, and now they are coming out of the bushes; be ready for what comes with wounding a wild animal.

If humans are capable of murdering their own unborn, so they can have the lives they want, I would say do not be surprised if evil religious people can kill and torture others, in order to enforce what they want. Humans are like this, already, in all countries . . . as we have seen in Germany, how the United States has done things in order to take lands from sovereign peoples, and now ISIS. The United States has in past history done the same sort of thing, I consider. This is how things work in Satan's kingdom.

Going back, I remember how I was fine with American troops taking down Saddam Hussein. But with him out of the way, ISIS has been able to set up. So, the world can work in its sort of "mysterious ways" to help its own.

Also, about the Holocaust . . . were the Jews obeying their Messiah Jesus, or were they going to Germany on their own, or because of being dispersed because of their rebellion; were they confessing their Messiah Jesus, or living in rebellion? The early scriptures are very clear that the Jews were God's people and so they were not to form alliances with people who were not honoring God. And, like I offer > if you rush into something in order to get what is for you only, you are operating in Satan's kingdom and so consequences aren't going to be fair. Sin is not fair > a little child can in a brief moment of foolishness ignore Mommy and run into the street and be killed or maimed; no, this is not fair; but if you ignore our Father and refuse to obey how our Father would take care of you, you live outside His care; and outside His care you are where the consequences are not going to be fair.

Plus, by the way, in case you are busy with "judging God" for not judging evil people . . . God's first priority is judging His own children!!! > 1 Peter 4:17. Therefore, if you yourself are busy with criticizing God and judging others, instead of seeking His evaluation and correction of you > you're missing out > Hebrews 12:4-11.

But even if you are obeying how our Father cares for us, it could be that God will lead you to where you could be killed. But if you die while being God's child and doing His will, He brings you to better and better >

"The righteous perishes,
.And no man takes it to heart;
.Merciful men are taken away,
.While no one considers
.That the righteous is taken away from evil."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .(Isaiah 57:1)

I see, among other things about the crucifixion of Jesus, how Jesus considered it worthwhile to suffer and die like He did, so He could get out of this evil world, and be "home" with our Heavenly Father. So, it would be worthwhile to go through anything, in order to with God.

So, if people are dying in a bad way, not benefitting from dying . . . it is "silly" to blame God > "fear of death" is slavery to Satan, according to what I see in Hebrews 2:14-15. And ones in slavery to Satan can have a way of blaming God when people die or go through hard things which their own sin made them available to suffering.

"Good understanding gains favor,
.But the way of the unfaithful is hard."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Proverbs 13:18)

I think I agree with your post, but I'm not sure.

I do think I agree with the implications of this:

So, the world can work in its sort of "mysterious ways" to help its own.

We must keep in mind that Satan is constantly at work in this world, and that the ways of the world are his ways. His intention is chaos and despair, and that comes with nobody being a clear and final winner.

We fought one world war, and another came soon enough on its heels. We fought that and even more popped up, plus the threat of nuclear annihilation. Chaos and despair in this world and of this world never ends.

 

[Job8]

So to say God was responsible for the cross is to blaspheme God.

There are two aspects to the cross which must be balanced in order to have a proper understanding.

THE OFFERING FOR SIN
On the one hand, God predetermined the Cross of Christ and God foreordained that the Lamb of God (Christ) would make an offering of Himself to God for all humanity (1 Pet 1:18-20; 1 Jn 2:1,2). This was a Divine Necessity and the end result will be the redemption of all creation (Rom 8:18-25).

THE INSTRUMENTALITY OF EVIL MEN
On the other hand, God's Divine foreknowledge anticipated the enmity of the Jews and the willingness of the Romans to participate in this heinous act against an innocent Man (hence Psalm 22). Peter brings both these aspects together in Acts 2:23, while Stephen focuses on the wickedness of the Jews (Acts 7:51,52): Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:... Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Both Peter and Stephen lay the blame squarely on the Jews, not on the Romans, and certainly not on God. So indeed, it would be blasphemous to twist these truths and make God responsible for betrayers, murderers, and wicked hands. Christ said that the Devil had been a murderer from the beginning, and that is how we need to see this.

 

[royal priest]

The Bible does not teach that God is responsible for sin and evil. So if that is indeed what Calvinists teach, they need to make a major revision in their thinking, since to the rest of us it would be blasphemous. God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all (1 Jn 1:5). Any teaching that violates this truth is not from God.

Accepting that God kills and makes alive; forms light and darkness; causes prosperity and calamity in no way violates the good wise and just nature of God.
On the contrary, it increases our capacity to exalt Him as such. Faith views God's goodness in all His works. It may not feel pleasant when He afflicts us, nevertheless we can say, "the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord."

 

[royal priest]

Both Peter and Stephen lay the blame squarely on the Jews, not on the Romans, and certainly not on God. So indeed, it would be blasphemous to twist these truths and make God responsible for betrayers, murderers, and wicked hands. Christ said that the Devil had been a murderer from the beginning, and that is how we need to see this.

The Jews culpability, does not mean God did not use them to kill Jesus. Acts 4:27-28,
"of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done."

They were praying that, just as God used those wicked men to carry out the crucifixion of Jesus, that God would now keep those people from hindering the Apostles ministry:

verses 29-30, "And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, by stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus."

 

[98cwitr]

Accepting that God kills and makes alive; forms light and darkness; causes prosperity and calamity in no way violates the good wise and just nature of God.
On the contrary, it increases our capacity to exalt Him as such. Faith views God's goodness in all His works. It may not feel pleasant when He afflicts us, nevertheless we can say, "the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord."

This! Isaiah 45:7

 

[Hammster]

There are two aspects to the cross which must be balanced in order to have a proper understanding.

THE OFFERING FOR SIN
On the one hand, God predetermined the Cross of Christ and God foreordained that the Lamb of God (Christ) would make an offering of Himself to God for all humanity (1 Pet 1:18-20; 1 Jn 2:1,2). This was a Divine Necessity and the end result will be the redemption of all creation (Rom 8:18-25).

THE INSTRUMENTALITY OF EVIL MEN
On the other hand, God's Divine foreknowledge anticipated the enmity of the Jews and the willingness of the Romans to participate in this heinous act against an innocent Man (hence Psalm 22). Peter brings both these aspects together in Acts 2:23, while Stephen focuses on the wickedness of the Jews (Acts 7:51,52): Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:... Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Both Peter and Stephen lay the blame squarely on the Jews, not on the Romans, and certainly not on God. So indeed, it would be blasphemous to twist these truths and make God responsible for betrayers, murderers, and wicked hands. Christ said that the Devil had been a murderer from the beginning, and that is how we need to see this.

Peter said this:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. - Acts 2:22-24

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus said that what would be done to Him was God's plan, but woe be to the people who would do what they did to Jesus. So, it is both > God is in control of what happens, but wrong people will answer for the wrong they do, and they will suffer what comes with operating in Satan's kingdom.

In the first chapter of Job, Jesus told Satan what he could do and what he could not do. But Satan was stupid enough to do those wrong things which he got permission to do.

So, I can see how God controls evil > evil is ready to do much more wrong, but God keeps the lid on it >

"God resists the proud" (in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5).

Everything has God's strategy for what is good. He can use any evil for His good . . . like how He used Joseph's trouble > Genesis 37-50.

Everything is in His precision control, and it is surgical.

 

[Job8]

Peter said this:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. - Acts 2:22-24

Using a different translation does not change anything. On one hand Peter points to the crucifixion as predetermined and foreknown and on the other hand he points to the wickedness of those who committed the crime.

The point is that in no way do the apostles make God responsible for the wicked or evil acts of men. That is the crux of the matter whether at Calvary or in Paris. God ALLOWS and USES wicked men for His purposes, but God does not INSTIGATE evil.

 

[RDKirk]

Using a different translation does not change anything. On one hand Peter points to the crucifixion as predetermined and foreknown and on the other hand he points to the wickedness of those who committed the crime.

The point is that in no way do the apostles make God responsible for the wicked or evil acts of men. That is the crux of the matter whether at Calvary or in Paris. God ALLOWS and USES wicked men for His purposes, but God does not INSTIGATE evil.

It is possible to acknowledge God's overall sovereignty over all things without blaming Him. To "blame" means to deny that He has the right to do whatever He does. "Blame" inherently means "He had no right." You don't "blame" a person for doing what he has a right to do.

And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.-- Job 1

Don't be siderailed here by debates of Job's knowledge of Satan's role. Regardless of Satan's specific agency, Job acknowledged that God had all right and authority to both give and remove, and thereby there was no "blame" to be assessed to whatever God did.

 

[Hammster]

Using a different translation does not change anything. On one hand Peter points to the crucifixion as predetermined and foreknown and on the other hand he points to the wickedness of those who committed the crime.

The point is that in no way do the apostles make God responsible for the wicked or evil acts of men. That is the crux of the matter whether at Calvary or in Paris. God ALLOWS and USES wicked men for His purposes, but God does not INSTIGATE evil.

It was God's predetermined plan.

 

[Job8]

It was God's predetermined plan.

No one is denying that. But God was not the one who was responsible for the betrayal, the murder, and the wickedness. Or do you want to come out and say that He is? In that case every sin will be referred back to God, not to Satan. And Satan will roll on the floor laughing.

 

[Hammster]

No one is denying that. But God was not the one who was responsible for the betrayal, the murder, and the wickedness. Or do you want to come out and say that He is? In that case every sin will be referred back to God, not to Satan. And Satan will roll on the floor laughing.

I'm not saying God caused the sin. I'm saying that He planned it (crucifying Christ was a sin). God wanted the crucifixion to occur. He planned and orchestrated it. How is He then not responsible?

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not saying God caused the sin. I'm saying that He planned it (crucifying Christ was a sin). God wanted the crucifixion to occur. He planned and orchestrated it. How is He then not responsible?

And:
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. -- Colossians 1

All the universe, seen and unseen, exists by God's continuous will and for His continuous purpose.

Nothing ever created by God continues to exist by its own will. All that exists only exists as long as God continues to will it to exist, including Satan himself. If God should ever stop willing Satan to exist, Satan would instantly cease to exist.

 

[royal priest]

This! Isaiah 45:7

And these, 1 Samuel 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:39.