Is God sovereign over the Paris shootings?

[Hammster]

Discuss.

 

[royal priest]

Amos 3:6

 

[Hammster]

Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it? - Amos 3:6

 

[royal priest]

This is treading water where many of our brothers will be very offended. We need to be careful to avoid unnecessary offense and unfold this topic in as edifying a manner as is possible (1 Corinthians 8:1).

 

[Hammster]

Sometimes the gospel offends even believers.

 

[mindlight]

France is ruled by a godless man who 93% of French Muslims voted for. Yet on his watch 3 major terrorist incidents have already occurred. Why should God protect France when its people have not voted for him?

 

[Hammster]

France is ruled by a godless man who 93% of French Muslims voted for. Yet on his watch 3 major terrorist incidents have already occurred. Why should God protect France when its people have not voted for him?

So is that a yes, God is sovereign over the shootings?

 

[mindlight]

So is that a yes, God is sovereign over the shootings?

A definite yes. Though what he permits is not always his perfect will.

 

[Hammster]

A definite yes. Though what he permits is not always his perfect will.

Are you saying He has an imperfect will?

 

[mindlight]

Are you saying He has an imperfect will?

No God is perfect but he has allowed murderous or lying spirits to achieve his perfect purpose - e.g as with getting Ahab to commit to battle.

100 of the deaths in Paris occurred at at an Eagles of death metal concert where they sing songs like "Kiss the devil"- which has lyrics like:

"I WILL LOVE THE DEVIL AND SING HIS SONG!..."

 

[Hammster]

No God is perfect but he has allowed murderous or lying spirits to achieve his perfect purpose - e.g as with getting Ahab to commit to battle.

100 of the deaths in Paris occurred at at an Eagles of death metal concert where they sing songs like "Kiss the devil"- which has lyrics like:

"I WILL LOVE THE DEVIL AND SING HIS SONG!..."

Are those worse sins than you've done?

 

[mikedsjr]

Romans 1

To take an emotional level to this, I'm very grieved for the people there. It's awful what has happened.

To take a non-emotional level to this, life today has is still better statistically from a war and terrorist standpoint than it ever has. Though it could be changing

As Ed Stetzer said,"@edstetzer: After a terrorist attack, love isn’t our first natural feeling. But love is what Christians are called to anyway." https://t.co/7mTzZGLr6M

 

[Harfelugan]

Discuss.

An analogy: which will always break down, but humans have nothing better to define God's interaction among humans. This includes scriptural exegesis, which can rarely come to an agreement even among the orthodox.

My employer has created and personally owns the business where I work.
Nothing that is to be done in the business is to be done without his authority.
He is to be held ultimately responsible for the actions taken by employees within his business.
He is expected to over sight, or delegate said oversight to employees, every action or behavior that occurs within his business.
Employees constantly act in opposition to my employers instructions. If actions are severe enough to bring liability against the employee, the employer can be claimed liable as well. Even if unaware of the incident.
However God is aware of all incidents by created beings that he owns as creator. Therefore God can be said to be liable for our actions. A matter of semantics actually.

As such God can be claimed sovereign over any incident, yet not personally instigate the incident. The claim that God is sovereign over the Paris incidents can't be explained by the question presented as is in the OP in any negative manner unless one actually believes God put the thought of the incident into the created beings head and instigated that beings actions. I don't believe this. Some Christians will surely claim otherwise. Such is the predicament.

 

[mindlight]

Are those worse sins than you've done?

The message of Gods sovereignty is that He is in charge and will achieve His will with or without our cooperation.

The message of Gods grace and mercy is that He won't give us what we deserve and gives us what we do not deserve. In this situation God was not merciful to either devil worshippers or blind religious zealots who by committing murder in this way may have condemned themselves.

 

[Hammster]

The message of Gods sovereignty is that He is in charge and will achieve His will with or without our cooperation.

The message of Gods grace and mercy is that He won't give us what we deserve and gives us what we do not deserve. In this situation God was not merciful to either devil worshippers or blind religious zealots who by committing murder in this way may have condemned themselves.

You didn't answer my question. Are those worse sins than you've committed?

 

[Hammster]

An analogy: which will always break down, but humans have nothing better to define God's interaction among humans. This includes scriptural exegesis, which can rarely come to an agreement even among the orthodox.

My employer has created and personally owns the business where I work.
Nothing that is to be done in the business is to be done without his authority.
He is to be held ultimately responsible for the actions taken by employees within his business.
He is expected to over sight, or delegate said oversight to employees, every action or behavior that occurs within his business.
Employees constantly act in opposition to my employers instructions. If actions are severe enough to bring liability against the employee, the employer can be claimed liable as well. Even if unaware of the incident.
However God is aware of all incidents by created beings that he owns as creator. Therefore God can be said to be liable for our actions. A matter of semantics actually.

As such God can be claimed sovereign over any incident, yet not personally instigate the incident. The claim that God is sovereign over the Paris incidents can't be explained by the question presented as is in the OP in any negative manner unless one actually believes God put the thought of the incident into the created beings head and instigated that beings actions. I don't believe this. Some Christians will surely claim otherwise. Such is the predicament.

Is it possible that God suppresses evil, yet when He wants something to happen, He doesn't suppress it? That way, He's not causing it.

 

[Harfelugan]

Is it possible that God suppresses evil, yet when He wants something to happen, He doesn't suppress it? That way, He's not causing it.

Causing us to do good when we choose to do wrong takes away our choice in the matter. One would say this makes God sovereign in the situation. But like causing people to do evil it denies the possibility of God to hold people accountable for their actions. Which leaves God unable to to rightly judge us. A lack of sovereignty in my opinion.
There is the verse that implies that God is witholding evil in the world and will someday remove that force from the world and let evil have it's way. Some say that the force is the very Spirit of God. Yet I believe this force of God's Spirit is found within the Church/body of Christ by which God is engaging mankind. We are his agents in suppressing evil in the world. Semantically I can say that God alone is responsible for repressing evil in the world, even though he is using human agents to fulfill his will.

 

[GrenBH]

I like the way Augustine explains this. From Chapter 33 of his book On the Predestination of the Saints, the chapter is titled "It is in the Power of Evil Men to Sin; But to Do This or That by Means of that Wickedness is in God's Power Alone."

"What is the meaning of, "as concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake," but that their enmity wherewith they put Christ to death was, without doubt, as we see, an advantage to the gospel? And he shows that this came about by God's ordering, who knew how to make a good use even of evil things; not that the vessels of wrath might be of advantage to Him, but that by His own good use of them they might be of advantage to the vessels of mercy. For what could be said more plainly than what is actually said, "As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sakes"? It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God's, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God's will is not fulfilled except it be God's will. We read in the Acts of the Apostles that when the apostles had been sent away by the Jews, and had come to their own friends, and shown them what great things the priests and elders said to them, they all with one consent lifted up their voices to the Lord and said, "Lord, you are God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein; who, by the mouth of our father David, your holy servant, hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the peoples imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the princes were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ. For in truth, there have assembled together in this city against Your holy child Jesus, whom You have anointed, Herod and Pilate, and the people of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and counsel predestinated to be done." See what is said: "As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sakes." Because God's hand and counsel predestinated such things to be done by the hostile Jews as were necessary for the gospel, for our sakes."

Some more relevant scripture:

Gen_50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
(2Co 4:15-18)

Psa 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Job_1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Ecc 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

 

[royal priest]

France is ruled by a godless man who 93% of French Muslims voted for. Yet on his watch 3 major terrorist incidents have already occurred. Why should God protect France when its people have not voted for him?

Luke 13:1-5. Everyone of us should be in Hell right now (Psalms 103:10). It is only the forebearance of God that we can enjoy any good from His hand (Romans 2:4).

 

[royal priest]

Were these terrorists any different from the Assyrians that invaded Israel mentioned in Isaiah 10?

Isaiah 10:5-6, "Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger

And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
I send it against a godless nation
And commission it against the people of My fury
To capture booty and to seize plunder,
And to trample them down like mud in the streets."
​

Does this mean God gave Assyria a direct commission? No, although God sent them to use them as an instrument of anger, they did it of their own intentions.

Isaiah 10:7, "Yet it does not so intend,

Nor does it plan so in its heart,
But rather it is its purpose to destroy
And to cut off many nations."​

Even though God sent the Assyrians, He did not approve of their godless motives and failure to recognize His power over them.

Isaiah 10:12, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.”

For he has said,
“By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this,
For I have understanding;
And I removed the boundaries of the peoples
And plundered their treasures,
And like a mighty man I brought down their inhabitants..."​

Isaiah 10:15, "Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it?

Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?
That would be like a club wielding those who lift it,
Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood."
​

There is immense comfort in knowing that although men intend evil, God is behind it using it for good (Genesis 50:20). God was using Assyria as a means to chastise Israel for their sin and induce repentance. May God be pleased to use this evil against Paris for their good.