Is following the 10 commandments required for salvation?

[Jim Langston]

This post is in response to this response http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ords-day-sunday.7966382/page-18#post-70193626 in the thread "Should Christians rest on the Sabbath (saturday) and rejoice on the Lords day (sunday)?"

I will try to keep the quoting correct but I may be off and it was not intentional.

I am on my cellphone so it is not as easy to me respond in line.

My post was not so much a response to worshipping on the Sabbath being required at salvation but in response to the viewpoint you have given.

OK, but nowhere did I say that the Sabbath was intended to be the day of worship, because it wasn't.

Again, my post was not in response to worshipping on the Sabbath day. It was in response to someone stating we, as Christians, weren't obligated to follow the ten commandments because we weren't under the law.

There was a man who asked how to enter heaven and Jesus responded to follow the commandments listing a number of them, with the sabbath being absent. The mosaic law (everything other than the 10 commandments) was not included either. But the (majority of) 10 commandments were. That is why I do not sacrifice animals on the alter, I am not Jewish, I am not under the (mosaic) law.

What is the passage of the story you're referring to? Also, "alter" means change but the word you want is "altar". As for being under the law, Christians are not under any law, but everyone (until they become Christians) is under all law, not just the 10 commandments.

This is the text of the scripture.

Luke 18
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

This same occurrence was recorded in Matthew 19:16-30 and Mark 10:17-31. There are a few differences in text, the main one being Matthew 19 has the man saying "what lack I yet?" and Jesus responding "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell..." seeming to indicate that selling all that he had and giving it to the poor was not a requirement for salvation, but with it he would get greater rewards in heaven.

So, a man asked Jesus what that man had to do to get to heaven and Jesus basically said follow the ten commandments. Can we at least agree with that? The words the man and Jesus said in the bible? Whether it was because this man was a Jew and not a gentile or not, or because Jesus hadn't died on the cross at not is another point. If we can agree with what the man asked and what Jesus replied and that Jesus didn't lie we can proceed on the same page.

I make a distinct notice of the fact that Jesus says "thou knowest the commandments" and not "thou knowest the law". Commandments. Law. See the difference? Jesus did not say follow the law. Jesus said follow the commandments. Did He not?

It is my contention that where the new testament uses the word "law", usually Paul, what he meant by that was the Mosiac law, I.E. Moses' laws other than the 10 commandments. This he expressed best, I think, in Galatians 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." after Paul goes on about how we are no longer under the law, meaning the Mosaic law, but under the 10 commandments which are also under what he calls in other places the law of Christ. Jesus said all the commandments were based on love god with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Here is the section in Galations where Paul is saying don't follow the (Mosaic) law but follow the 10 commandments, I.E. Love thy neighbors as thyself (even Jesus left out all the commandments about loving God, curiously enough).

Galations 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Even Paul is saying your law is now love thy neighbour as thyself, just as Jesus told the man who asked how to get to heaven, because you may notice that all those commandments he gave dealt with love our neighbors as ourselves.

So, Jesus says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). Paul says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). If you can figure out a way to steal from someone while still treating them as yourself you are denying the truth. If you love your neighbor as yourself you will will follow the commandments automatically because, as Jesus says, that's what all the commandments are based on. Jesus said do it. Paul said do it. Do what? Love your neightbor as yourself, I.E. follow the 10 commandments.

I am not talking about the commandments dealing with God. It is possible that we are only under 6 commandments but we are told elsewhere that people who practice idolatry won't get to heaven either. We are also told somewhere that the Godless won't enter heaven. So that's 9. Which leaves do we have to honor the Sabbath.

And that is how I read the bible following what Jesus said to do here, follow the ten commandments but the mosaic law doesn't apply to me. Of course we know that there is more than that because even if I followed all of the ten commandments perfectly from now to the day I died it would not earn me salvation, only Jesus's washing away my sins will, which he does because I follow Him. I believe in him, do what He says to do as much as I am able and ask for forgiveness when I can't. But if I do not try then 1. I don't believe in Jesus and 2. I'm not repentant, both which are required for Jesus to wash away my sins.

So why do you only try to follow the 10 commandments when there are other laws given by God?

I am a Christian, I am not Jewish. I am not under the Mosiac Law according to what Jesus said. I read the new testament and read what Jesus said and Jesus tells me to Love the lord my God with all my heart, all my mind and all my soul and love my neighbor as myself. I only have 2 laws to worry about. All the others fall under those. Basically if it doesn't hurt God and it doesn't hurt anyone else then it's not sin. If it hurts god or it hurts anyone else then it's sin. Easy to remember. Easy to know when I fail and have to ask God for forgiveness.

Maybe it's a cop out for me to simply state that it's because I'm not Jewish because Jews aren't under the Mosaic law anymore either. It's easier to not be told to do something then to be told to do something then be told to stop. But since I'm not Jewish for me personally I don't have to worry about it. The Mosaic law saved the Jews, not the Gentiles so they never applied to me at any time since the beginning of creation. Maybe if I live some point in the past before Jesus came I might have to worry about following the Mosiac law or not being a gentile but it's a none issue today. Jesus never said I had to follow them, Paul never did, no one in the bible I can find ever said that me, a gentile, ever had to follow the Mosaic law.

If it is your claim that absolutely no act I do has anything to do with my salvation them how would I ever be saved in the first place? I need to accept Jesus as my savior, which is an act. I need to repent, which is an act. An act is works. Even though I am required to follow Jesus's teachings, which are works, they do not save me, because I'm saved by faith, faith in Jesus enough to follow his commandments and do what he said I must do to be saved. Which I can never do good enough to please God without Jesus' grace. It is not my works that save me, it is the grace of God I get for doing what He tells me to do.

If it is your claim that you earn your salvation by even one work, no matter how "small", then you are going against God's Word.

An "act" and a "work" are different things. If I win the lottery and collect my winnings, did I "work" for that money? The act of collecting it is not work in the sense of earning that money. The word "work" is used different ways but "work" in the Bible does not refer to all those different connotations we have for that word in English. If you consider an "act" to be a "work" and that you are getting your salvation based on doing that "work" then you are going against what God's Word says. God's Word says salvation is a GIFT. Gifts require no work. The act of accepting a gift is not work.

You are contradicting yourself by first saying an act that you do saves you and that "an act is works" and then saying that your works don't save you. You also contradict yourself by saying you are required to follow Jesus' commandments and then saying that it is only faith by which you are saved. Those two things are contradictory. It is by faith you are saved and NOT OF WORKS - that's exactly what the Bible says.

Let me get this straight, you are saying that accepting Jesus as my savior is not works it is an act. So, answer this, how by any stretch of the imagination is not doing something a work? It is, in fact, the absence of work. Don't steal. Don't covet. Don't commit adultery. This, to you, are works but accepting Jesus as my savior is not? I'll let you reword this question because on the face of it you never thought your logic thorough.

Now, your comment, we are saved by faith NOT OF WORKS. Just as the doctor example later, I had to go to the doctor. I had to take any medication he gave me. But my acts did not save me, the doctor performing the operation saved me. I was saved by the operation, NOT BY WORKS. Can we agree here?

I think one of the problems we are having is the Mosaic law was full of works. Sacrifice lambs. Sacrifice sheep. Sin offerings. Etc... Those, to both of us, are ACTS AND WORKS. Can we agree? Before the Jews were saved by WORKS, sacrificing sheep, slaughtering lambs, etc.. for all the sin they did. On top of this they were still supposed to try to follow the 10 commandments. When they couldn't follow the commandments they had to sacrifice an innocent animal to atone for their sins. Jesus has done that atonement for us. So when we fail to follow the commandments, I.E. we fail to treat others as ourselves, instead of sacrificing a sheep/lamb/ox, whatever as an act of WORK we pray to God/Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. A WORK is not needed for the atonement anymore. NOT SINNING IS NOT A WORK.

I go to the doctor and the doctor does an operation that saves my life. Who saved my life, me by going to the doctor or the doctor for operating? All the credit goes to the doctor. I just did what I had to do to allow him to save my life.

So then why do you want to take credit for the "act" of believing or repenting? But with a doctor you want all credit to go to the doctor and you get no credit for the act (which you consider a "work") of going to him? That doesn't make sense. You're giving a doctor more credit for doing an operation than you're giving Jesus for redeeming you from death.

Okay, [staff edit] this just doesn't seem to make sense. Jesus saves me completely as I have always said. Jesus is the one who washes away my sins. Jesus is the one who forgives my sins. I can do nothing to wash away my sins other than ask Jesus for forgiveness. I have never denied that. It is my sins that keep me out of heaven. If I was born sinless and never sinned and died sinless then I wouldn't have to be forgiven. But no man, other than Jesus, can do that.

I do not comprehend how you are saying I am giving the doctor more credit than Jesus. Just as I had to follow the doctor's orders I had to follow Jesus' orders.

If you can express your question a little better than I may have a better chance of framing a meaningful answer.

Jesus says to follow the commandments, do you? If you do not then the bible says do not be deceived, sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So you're telling me you always follow all of the commandments all the time and never, ever, ever sin? Seriously?

I'm a sinner and I still sin. Christians don't stop sinning once they become Christians. They do have a change in them and they do change their lives and they do focus on following God's commandments but they are not made into perfect beings that don't sin. I don't believe anyone, including you, who tells me they don't sin and they always follow God's Commandments.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! they do focus on following God's commandments. That is what Jesus asks us to do and is part of our salvation! Without trying to follow the 10 commandments we are not saved. And I never said I was perfect, I said I follow the ten commandments and when I fail I ask Jesus for forgiveness which He does because I am following his directive to focus on following God's commandments.

We seem to have the same understanding. So it comes down to one question. If someone asks Jesus into their heart and they do not try to follow the 10 commandments, are they still saved? If they ignored the 10 commandments and lived their lives as if they didn't exist? I think you will agree with me that the person who does that is not saved. But the person who accepts Jesus and tries to follow the 10 commandments and asks for forgiveness when they fail is saved.

I think we absolutely believe the same thing. I think you are stuck on believing that following the 10 commandments is the "works" the bible is saying we are not saved by, when I believe those "works" were the Mosaic law which we are no longer under. We both agree that focusing on following the 10 commandments does not save us. Jesus' forgiving us for our sins when we fail is what saves us. No?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Again, my post was not in response to worshipping on the Sabbath day. It was in response to someone stating we, as Christians, weren't obligated to follow the ten commandments because we weren't under the law.

Again, I'm not sure why you are specifying that your "post was not in response to worshiping on the Sabbath day" since I never brought that up.

This is the text of the scripture.

Luke 18
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

This same occurrence was recorded in Matthew 19:16-30 and Mark 10:17-31. There are a few differences in text, the main one being Matthew 19 has the man saying "what lack I yet?" and Jesus responding "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell..." seeming to indicate that selling all that he had and giving it to the poor was not a requirement for salvation, but with it he would get greater rewards in heaven.

So, a man asked Jesus what that man had to do to get to heaven and Jesus basically said follow the ten commandments. Can we at least agree with that? The words the man and Jesus said in the bible? Whether it was because this man was a Jew and not a gentile or not, or because Jesus hadn't died on the cross at not is another point. If we can agree with what the man asked and what Jesus replied and that Jesus didn't lie we can proceed on the same page.

No, we can't agree on that, because that's not what Jesus said. He said "follow the commandments", not "follow the ten commandments". You are adding to the scripture here.

I make a distinct notice of the fact that Jesus says "thou knowest the commandments" and not "thou knowest the law". Commandments. Law. See the difference? Jesus did not say follow the law. Jesus said follow the commandments. Did He not?

I don't see the difference you're trying to make between "commandments" and "law". The law is made up of God's commandments. They are the same thing. You are inferring some kind of difference but there is none. You're not even providing the difference - you're just noting that the two words are different and saying "see the difference?" No, I don't. For example, if a school has a code of conduct that contains 43 rules and someone says to the principal, "Principal, what can I do to avoid detention or other punishment?", the principal can reply one of two ways; he can say, "follow the school's code of conduct" or "obey the rules". They mean the same thing. It is no different in this parable. I know what you're trying to do, because it is common Sabbatarian propaganda, and that is you are trying to make a hard distinction between the 10 commandments and the rest of God's commandments. I don't understand how someone can think there are certain commandments that are greater than the others (with the exception of two that Christ pointed out are summation of the others).

It is my contention that where the new testament uses the word "law", usually Paul, what he meant by that was the Mosiac law, I.E. Moses' laws other than the 10 commandments. This he expressed best, I think, in Galatians 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." after Paul goes on about how we are no longer under the law, meaning the Mosaic law, but under the 10 commandments which are also under what he calls in other places the law of Christ. Jesus said all the commandments were based on love god with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Here is the section in Galations where Paul is saying don't follow the (Mosaic) law but follow the 10 commandments, I.E. Love thy neighbors as thyself (even Jesus left out all the commandments about loving God, curiously enough).

You make the "contention that where the new testament uses the word "law", usually Paul, what he meant by that was the Mosiac law, I.E. Moses' laws other than the 10 commandments" but you don't provide any proof of that. It's just a contention you make, and then you continue on with the expectation that because you made the contention I am now accepting it and reading the Galatians passage you provide through the filter of the contention you make. Nowhere in the Galatians passage is your contention backed up and nowhere in Scripture is it backed up. So, the problem here is that your contention is wrong and then your interpretation of Galatians based on your contention is also wrong.

Even Paul is saying your law is now love thy neighbour as thyself, just as Jesus told the man who asked how to get to heaven, because you may notice that all those commandments he gave dealt with love our neighbors as ourselves.

So, Jesus says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). Paul says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). If you can figure out a way to steal from someone while still treating them as yourself you are denying the truth. If you love your neighbor as yourself you will will follow the commandments automatically because, as Jesus says, that's what all the commandments are based on. Jesus said do it. Paul said do it. Do what? Love your neightbor as yourself, I.E. follow the 10 commandments.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is not one of the 10 commandments. Jesus did not say "follow the 10 commandments", He said, "follow my commandments". Paul does not say "follow the 10 commandments". Paul says, "For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works, lest any man should boast." Paul also teaches that we are under the New Covenant and exempted from the law.

I am not talking about the commandments dealing with God. It is possible that we are only under 6 commandments but we are told elsewhere that people who practice idolatry won't get to heaven either. We are also told somewhere that the Godless won't enter heaven. So that's 9. Which leaves do we have to honor the Sabbath.

I am a Christian, I am not Jewish. I am not under the Mosiac Law according to what Jesus said. I read the new testament and read what Jesus said and Jesus tells me to Love the lord my God with all my heart, all my mind and all my soul and love my neighbor as myself. I only have 2 laws to worry about. All the others fall under those. Basically if it doesn't hurt God and it doesn't hurt anyone else then it's not sin. If it hurts god or it hurts anyone else then it's sin. Easy to remember. Easy to know when I fail and have to ask God for forgiveness.

Maybe it's a cop out for me to simply state that it's because I'm not Jewish because Jews aren't under the Mosaic law anymore either. It's easier to not be told to do something then to be told to do something then be told to stop. But since I'm not Jewish for me personally I don't have to worry about it. The Mosaic law saved the Jews, not the Gentiles so they never applied to me at any time since the beginning of creation. Maybe if I live some point in the past before Jesus came I might have to worry about following the Mosiac law or not being a gentile but it's a none issue today. Jesus never said I had to follow them, Paul never did, no one in the bible I can find ever said that me, a gentile, ever had to follow the Mosaic law.

It seems that here you are again trying to make divisions within the law, presumably to separate "Mosaic law" from the 10 commandments. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The Law applied to all mankind even though it was given to the Jews. That's the Old Covenant. The New Covenant also applies to all mankind and was given to all mankind, not just the Jews. The New Covenant fulfilled the Law through Christ and therefore Grace replaced the requirement of law. I don't understand what difference you see amongst the laws or how you come to that conclusion.

Let me get this straight, you are saying that accepting Jesus as my savior is not works it is an act. So, answer this, how by any stretch of the imagination is not doing something a work? It is, in fact, the absence of work. Don't steal. Don't covet. Don't commit adultery. This, to you, are works but accepting Jesus as my savior is not? I'll let you reword this question because on the face of it you never thought your logic thorough.

No, I'm saying (again) that not all acts are works. The act of repentance and accepting Christ is not a work because it is not an effort on the part of the believer. To give an example again, if someone gives me a check for $1000, if I earned it by doing work then it was earned by works, despite my act of accepting the check. If someone gives me that check for no reason, for no work or anything that I have done, my acceptance of that check means I am getting a gift that has required no work on my part. It required an act, that of my accepting it, but it did not require work.

In regards to the commandments you mentioned, I think you're saying to me that since it comes naturally to humans to not steal, not kill, not commit adultery, that doing what simply comes naturally is not work. You'd be right except that your premise (that I can only presume) is wrong because humans are naturally inclined to kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, etc. It takes work for a person not to do those things. It takes work to discipline oneself to be aware and not commit those acts. I've thought it through quite well. Do you really believe that it is effortless and requires no work for a person to not do those things? I've broken some of those commandments effortlessly in my life because it's so easy. Killing is tough to do but lying or stealing are very, very easy to do and many times have been tough to NOT do. How about you? Does it come naturally and effortlessly to you to not lie or steal or covet?

Now, your comment, we are saved by faith NOT OF WORKS. Just as the doctor example later, I had to go to the doctor. I had to take any medication he gave me. But my acts did not save me, the doctor performing the operation saved me. I was saved by the operation, NOT BY WORKS. Can we agree here?

We agree on that, but you earlier said:
"I need to accept Jesus as my savior, which is an act. I need to repent, which is an act. An act is works. Even though I am required to follow Jesus's teachings, which are works, they do not save me, because I'm saved by faith, faith in Jesus enough to follow his commandments and do what he said I must do to be saved."

So in your doctor example, you are saying that you did no work and that the doctor's operation on you is what saved you. Yet in the quote I just gave you say that your salvation has the requirement of an act which you consider to be work, making your salvation a result of your work. I see now that in the next quote of you below you repeat your belief that acts are works. So why is your act a work when it comes to salvation but when it comes to your act of going to the doctor that is not a work that results in your being saved?

I think one of the problems we are having is the Mosaic law was full of works. Sacrifice lambs. Sacrifice sheep. Sin offerings. Etc... Those, to both of us, are ACTS AND WORKS. Can we agree? Before the Jews were saved by WORKS, sacrificing sheep, slaughtering lambs, etc.. for all the sin they did. On top of this they were still supposed to try to follow the 10 commandments. When they couldn't follow the commandments they had to sacrifice an innocent animal to atone for their sins. Jesus has done that atonement for us. So when we fail to follow the commandments, I.E. we fail to treat others as ourselves, instead of sacrificing a sheep/lamb/ox, whatever as an act of WORK we pray to God/Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. A WORK is not needed for the atonement anymore. NOT SINNING IS NOT A WORK.

"Works" are doing what we are told to do as well as not doing what we are forbidden from doing. You seem to think that not doing a forbidden thing is "not work" because you are "not doing" the forbidden act. The reality is that the reason those things are forbidden in the first place is because it is in our human sin nature to do those things and God therefore had to expressly declare those things forbidden.

Under the Old Covenant one was saved one of two ways: If a person worked to keep the law perfectly, he was saved, but of course not one person ever (other than Christ) ever could do this. Therefore, certain other works were prescribed that related to atonement.

Under the New Covenant, no works are required. The law is not required. No works whatsoever are required. Only Faith is required. Faith is belief, it is not work. Even that faith is "not of ourselves" - it is enabled in us by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is very clear on this:
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When you make claims that you have done works that have resulted in your salvation you are going against the Gospel as presented in God's Word. You've done nothing but accept and accepting is not "work". It is not of yourself, it is God's Grace by which you are saved.

Okay, [staff edit] this just doesn't seem to make sense. Jesus saves me completely as I have always said. Jesus is the one who washes away my sins. Jesus is the one who forgives my sins. I can do nothing to wash away my sins other than ask Jesus for forgiveness. I have never denied that. It is my sins that keep me out of heaven. If I was born sinless and never sinned and died sinless then I wouldn't have to be forgiven. But no man, other than Jesus, can do that.

[Staff edit]
Here you're saying you can do nothing to wash away your sins, but earlier you said you had to do acts of repentance and acceptance, which you then followed up by saying that "acts are works". So, if you did acts that contributed to your salvation and acts are works then you did works that helped earn your salvation. Then you say you can do nothing? You said you can do acceptance and repentance - those are nothing? This is why I said in my last response to you that you are contradicting yourself and here again you are contradicting yourself.

I do not comprehend how you are saying I am giving the doctor more credit than Jesus. Just as I had to follow the doctor's orders I had to follow Jesus' orders.

See above, I've explained it multiple times.

[Staff edit]

they do focus on following God's commandments

. That is what Jesus asks us to do and is part of our salvation! Without trying to follow the 10 commandments we are not saved. And I never said I was perfect, I said I follow the ten commandments and when I fail I ask Jesus for forgiveness which He does because I am following his directive to focus on following God's commandments.

It is only "part of our salvation" in that it is the result of our salvation. It is not at all a part of our gaining salvation. In fact, people become saved when not focusing on following the 10 commandments. AFTER they receive salvation, the fruits of their true faith will show in them focusing on keeping (not actually perfectly keeping) the commandments (not just the 10).

We seem to have the same understanding. So it comes down to one question. If someone asks Jesus into their heart and they do not try to follow the 10 commandments, are they still saved? If they ignored the 10 commandments and lived their lives as if they didn't exist? I think you will agree with me that the person who does that is not saved. But the person who accepts Jesus and tries to follow the 10 commandments and asks for forgiveness when they fail is saved.

If someone asks Jesus into their heart and they do not try to follow God's commandments they may or may not be saved, we still don't know for sure. Only God knows their heart. Many people have been saved and not followed the commandments for various reasons. Are they "trying"? Aren't we all "trying"? Who is to be able to judge someone's efforts? Only God and that individual. And again, it's not about the "10" commandments. That's a Sabbatarian legend that has no basis in scripture.

I think we absolutely believe the same thing. I think you are stuck on believing that following the 10 commandments is the "works" the bible is saying we are not saved by, when I believe those "works" were the Mosaic law which we are no longer under. We both agree that focusing on following the 10 commandments does not save us. Jesus' forgiving us for our sins when we fail is what saves us. No?

I think we believe very different things, but it's hard to tell the specifics because you're promoting works-based salvation while at the same time claiming there are no works you can do to obtain salvation.

But from the start, I never made any claims about keeping the Sabbath as having an effect on salvation so I don't know why you brought that into things. I was addressing the issue from the other thread that a Christian should not observe the Sabbath day. I said nothing about it having bearing on their salvation one way or another. I'm baffled as to why you brought that into the discussion and even started a new thread as if I was talking about this subject. My contention from the other thread is that the Sabbath day does not exist under the New Covenant and Christians should not be observing it. I believe it's permissible to observe it but that's the limit; Paul permitted that the Jews and even non-Jewish Christians can observe it but it was due to liberty in Christ and not due to it having been a commandment under the Old Covenant.

 

[Jim Langston]

[Staff edit] Let me try this it this way.

Can we agree that Jesus said in part in answer to the man's question on how to be saved "thou shall not kill." or you won't kill or do not kill, however you want to word it [staff edit].

 

[davidcrosby]

So could there be an agreement that it is not bondage of the Law or Commandments to keep from doing wrong, but freedom in Christ desiring to do right?
It's pretty simple that the outward observance of the Law is fulfilled by the inner intentions of God. The Law is fulfilled (Rom 13:10) in us (Rom 8:4) because of Romans 5:5 (the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit).

Yeah, remember what God said about putting His Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jer 31:33).

No, we are no longer under the Law. We no longer have to work for our rightiousness (as by the Law). Instead we do rightious works (as by Christ). Christ is our rightiousness (1Cor 1:30), and we rest in Him (Heb 4:3,10). We now rest in Christ as He is our sabbath (rest) in fulfilling the Law.

*Rom 13:10 ...love is the fulfillment of the law.

*Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

*Rom 5:5 ...the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

*1Cor 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--

*Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest...

*Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

*Jer 31:33 ...I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

 

[Jim Langston]

So could there be an agreement that it is not bondage of the Law or Commandments to keep from doing wrong, but freedom in Christ desiring to do right?
It's pretty simple that the outward observance of the Law is fulfilled by the inner intentions of God. The Law is fulfilled (Rom 13:10) in us (Rom 8:4) because of Romans 5:5 (the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit).

Yeah, remember what God said about putting His Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jer 31:33).

No, we are no longer under the Law. We no longer have to work for our rightiousness (as by the Law). Instead we do rightious works (as by Christ). Christ is our rightiousness (1Cor 1:30), and we rest in Him (Heb 4:3,10). We now rest in Christ as He is our sabbath (rest) in fulfilling the Law.

*Rom 13:10 ...love is the fulfillment of the law.

*Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

*Rom 5:5 ...the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

*1Cor 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--

*Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest...

*Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

*Jer 31:33 ...I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Please understand, when I see you say "the law is fullfilled in us" I interpret it "the Mosaic law is fullfilled in us". Not sinning because we have a desire not to is well and good bit still does not adress the point.

When the man asked how to get to heaven Jesus answered, in part, "Do not kill". Jesus didn't say desire not to kill, but do not kill. We know that no one is perfect and we know that someone who does kill, in contradiction to what Jesus said, has to ask Jesus' forgivness. Well, I know that from reading the bible. It has come to my understanding from this forum that I really don't know what people who label themselves as Christians believe. I can't even, so far, get anyone to agree that Jesus said do not kill even though it's in the scripture

 

[Kenny'sID]

Can we at least agree with that?

LOL, I wouldn't count on it. I mean I do, but...well, maybe the following thread will help explain.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/bet-you-didnt-know.7955435/

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I can't even, so far, get anyone to agree that Jesus said do not kill even though it's in the scripture

AMEIN. "BE HARMLESS AS DOVES"
"I SEND YOU OUT AS SHEEPS in THE MIDST OF RAVENOUS WOLVES"
simple.
rejected like Y'SHUA was.
outcasts like Y'SHUA was (suffering humiliation at the hands of fellow men).
"outside the gate" with Y'SHUA.

Did you know / realize/ "salvation" and "healing" may be the same WORD?

Did you know / realize/ you may be healed IF you keep Y'SHUA'S WORD ? (experientially, actually, observably even by unbelievers)

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

This is interesting

 

[DeaconDean]

We read in Hebrews:

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -Heb. 8:13 (KJV)

Has anybody ever stopped to consider that God said:

"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." -Deut. 4:13 (KJV)

Moses recorded that the Decalogue and the covenants were one.

Hebrews tells us that are under a new covenant, established on better promises. (cf. Heb. 8:6)

Decide for yourself-life under the new covenant, or the old.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[davidcrosby]

Please understand, when I see you say "the law is fullfilled in us" I interpret it "the Mosaic law is fullfilled in us". Not sinning because we have a desire not to is well and good bit still does not adress the point.

When the man asked how to get to heaven Jesus answered, in part, "Do not kill". Jesus didn't say desire not to kill, but do not kill. We know that no one is perfect and we know that someone who does kill, in contradiction to what Jesus said, has to ask Jesus' forgivness. Well, I know that from reading the bible. It has come to my understanding from this forum that I really don't know what people who label themselves as Christians believe. I can't even, so far, get anyone to agree that Jesus said do not kill even though it's in the scripture

O' we all agree that Jesus said do not murder even to the extent that "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him" (1John 3:15).
That's why a genuine Christian with the love of Christ in him knows the law says do not murder but doesn't live by "the sinful passions which were aroused by the law at work in our members to bear fruit to death" (Rom 7:5). But instead lives by "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) obtained through the "law of faith" (Rom 3:27) which has "fulfilled the Royal law according to the Scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'" (James 2:8).
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2). The law of sin and death says do not murder. The law of life in the Spirit says love your neighbor... in which there is no desire to murder.

Yeah, I have to live by the desires which desire His desiring in me... "Against such there is no law" (Gal 5:23).
Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control to ya brother.


Rom 2:23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

[Staff edit]

Can we agree that Jesus said in part in answer to the man's question on how to be saved "thou shall not kill." or you won't kill or do not kill, however you want to word it so you will answer the question.

I've given you an answer, several times, to your questions. The one you are asking now I have already answered. I don't see the point in answering it again except that it will encourage you to continue to re-ask the same questions. Please see my earlier reply and you will have your answer.

Plus everything in davidcrosby's posts pretty much sums up my views on the subject.

 

[Jim Langston]

We read in Hebrews:

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -Heb. 8:13 (KJV)

Has anybody ever stopped to consider that God said:

"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." -Deut. 4:13 (KJV)

Moses recorded that the Decalogue and the covenants were one.

Hebrews tells us that are under a new covenant, established on better promises. (cf. Heb. 8:6)

Decide for yourself-life under the new covenant, or the old.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Fine. Since you consider Jesus making a new covenant and Jesus said "do not kill" then that would be included in the new covenant, would it not?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Decide for yourself-life under the new covenant, or the old.

I'll take the new covenant, where Christ took the sin upon himself and no more sacrifices were necessary, but at the same time, I'll try to obey the commandments just as that same Christ said too...it's the least I can do.

[Staff edit]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Fine. Since you consider Jesus making a new covenant and Jesus said "do not kill" then that would be included in the new covenant, would it not?

No worries you know Y'SHUA - the new covenant change from the old covenant is simple the change in priesthood as it is written: Y'SHUA was the PERFECT SACRIFICE once for all time, no more temporary priests, no more yearly sacrifices.
The TORAH NEVER CHANGES. (you already know, but repeating it is no problem simply a safeguard)

I'll take the new covenant, where Christ took the sin upon himself and no more sacrifices were necessary, but at the same time, I'll try to obey the commandments just as that same Christ said too...it's the least I can do.

I think and hope and pray you will not murder anyone TODAY.
(not "try" not to murder anyone TODAY.) Right ? (and IF you do, repent).
The commandments are not burdensome. Y'SHUA says so.
So just do what Y'SHUA says.
Don't try to.
HE IS not a harsh task master.
[Staff edit]
So we all pray together to learn the TRUTH, eh?

Has anybody ever stopped to consider that God said:
"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." -Deut. 4:13 (KJV)
Moses recorded that the Decalogue and the covenants were one.
Hebrews tells us that are under a new covenant, established on better promises. (cf. Heb. 8:6)
Decide for yourself-life under the new covenant, or the old.

"Decide for yourself" ? That's not a good idea, I think. Rather, SEEK YHWH.
The TORAH YHWH WROTE ON STONE,
now TORAH YHWH WRITES ON OUR HEARTS.
so keeping TORAH is easier and possible and joyous and willingly and AMAZING GRACE!

The TORAH YHWH WROTE ON STONE, required death for breaking TORAH.

The TORAH YHWH WROTE ON OUR HEARTS < ALSO > requires death for breaking it.

What's the difference ? (i.e. the difference between the old and the new covenant).

 

[Jim Langston]

O' we all agree that Jesus said do not murder even to the extent that "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him" (1John 3:15).
That's why a genuine Christian with the love of Christ in him knows the law says do not murder but doesn't live by "the sinful passions which were aroused by the law at work in our members to bear fruit to death" (Rom 7:5). But instead lives by "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) obtained through the "law of faith" (Rom 3:27) which has "fulfilled the Royal law according to the Scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'" (James 2:8).
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2). The law of sin and death says do not murder. The law of life in the Spirit says love your neighbor... in which there is no desire to murder.

Yeah, I have to live by the desires which desire His desiring in me... "Against such there is no law" (Gal 5:23).
Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control to ya brother.


Rom 2:23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Since ArmenianJohn says he agrees with you it is you I address. I agree with everything you said as it seems you believe to love thy neighbor as thyself is required for salvation. If I am wrong please correct me.

And since we are told the ten commandments are based on love thy neighbor as thyself, it seems to me you would agree that following the ten commandments, as such it is loving our neighbors as ourselves, is required for salvation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And since we are told the ten commandments are based on love thy neighbor as thyself, it seems to me you would agree that following the ten commandments, as such it is loving our neighbors as ourselves, is required for salvation.

It is very interesting to note
that
in communities where they honor YHWH
there
is no crime
no stealing
no bomb threats
no rape
no adultery
no homosexuality
no greed
no idolatry [staff edit]
no murders

but in churches all over the world there is all of those.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I think and hope and pray you will not murder anyone TODAY.
(not "try" not to murder anyone TODAY.) Right ? (and IF you do, repent).
The commandments are not burdensome. Y'SHUA says so.
So just do what Y'SHUA says.
Don't try to.
HE IS not a harsh task master.

Don't try too? Are you saying you don't just try, you keep them to a tee? Regardless, I will try. Not sure about the rest of you but, I'd guess I break them often enough in at least some technical shape or form, and that's expected, one of the very reasons Christ died. All we can do is keep getting better at it.

Harsh master? I guess that would be a matter of perspective, or something say a committed sinner would disagree with, but all said and done, I agree, for what it's all worth to us in the end, God's expectations of us aren't harsh in the least.

Not sure what your comment on murder was trying to convey? It's one of the biggies, and I will most likely never do that one, at least in it's purest form. Not too many would, Christian or not, if for no other reason, the penalty is harsh in the here and now. The rest of the commandments, not so much..

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Don't try too? Are you saying you don't just try, you keep them to a tee? Regardless, I will try.

So then,
you will murder some one probably ? Possibly ?

Even if you do, and ten thousand people around me do, I will not.

I will die first instead of murdering someone.
LIkewise the rest of Y'SHUA'S commandments - they are easy to keep, not burdensome at all, they are life producing, life enhancing , wonderful and perfect and right and good and a blessing.

Even though ten thousand people all around me say lying is okay, and admit they lie every day,
I will not.

Why give up the soul, even if to gain the whole world ?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

No, keeping the ten commands are not necessary for salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not by works.
Jesus said, if you love me keep my commands. If we love Jesus we love our neighbor as ourselves. Which means we don't steal from them, we don't murder them, we don't lie about them, we don't covet their spouse. Or their material goods.

Hearken back to the scripture that tells us , if we say we hate someone and love God we are a liar! Because when we claim we love God whom we have not seen, how then can we say we hate our neighbor whom we have seen?

The ten commands are all based on love. If we love our parents we respect our parents and honor them. If we love God we cleave unto and worship only God and have no other gods before him. We keep the Sabbath that was made for us, holy. We do not take our Lord's name in vein.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hearken back to the scripture that tells us , if we say we hate someone and love God we are a liar!

Good.
Just like Scripture tells us, if we say we can commit adultery and love YHWH, we are a liar! (and the truth is not in us - there is no light in such a one).

Just like Scripture tells us, if we say we can pracitice idolatry and love YHWH, we are a liar! (and the truth is not in us - there is no light in such a one).

Just like Scripture tells us, if we say we can worship other gods and love YHWH, we are a liar (and the truth is not in us - there is no light in such a one).

Just like Scripture tells us, if we say we can be greedy and love YHWH, we are a liar! ( and the truth is not in us - there is no light in such a one).

All of the commandments likewise.

In fact, YHWH says if anyone considers sin in their heart, YHWH does not hear their prayer.

Simple, JUST LIKE SCRIPTURE TELLS US.