Is cross-dressing a sin?

[Odetta]

In the wake of the Bruce Jenner announcement, I'm throwing this out there, because honestly, I don't know what to think, and my husband thinks I'm heretical for even questioning it.

I know that God made male and female, created He them. So to me, gender reassignment is an affront to God's creation and should not be done. The bible also speaks at length about homosexuality.

But a guy wanting to dress like a girl?

The bible does have exhortations to husbands and wives and their responsibilities to teach other. But where in the bible does it say that men should dress as men, and women should dress as women? Is it more that society creates man-made stipulations as to what those gender dress stereotypes are?

If you have some verses to share that relate to this subject, I'd love to take note of them. Because I'm honestly just trying to wrap my head around this subject. Hopefully this won't start a flaming war. Just looking for clarity and respectful debate if it comes to that.

 

[bluegreysky]

Honestly, my cousin does it as a joke because he's in acting. And my husband I've convinced him to dress up like a girl and then I dressed up like a boy to play a joke on a friend. I think when it's just all in good fun that's one thing...
...I think dressing as a convincing woman when you're a man or a convincing man when you're a woman with the intention to woo the same sex under pretense of being the opposite sex might classify as "bearing false witness" under the 10 commandments.

 

[.chrys.]

Odetta, I really like bluegreysky's answer to this one. I don't have a better answer.

Jesus didn't wear pants, He wore a robe. Jesus didn't have short hair, it was long and flowing--as was the custom for both men and women! I think that dress is a matter of personal preference in today's world. I'm a woman, and I wear jeans and T-shirts most days. My husband also wears and jeans and T-shirts most days.

 

[Odetta]

If a man dresses like a woman, but has a female wife, I don't think that's homosexuality it the eyes of God. However, it could be said that it is bearing false witness to the world at large for people who don't know the guy is a guy and what they see is a lesbian relationship.

Also, it's kind of a double standard that it's OK for a woman to dress more like a man, than for a man to dress more like a woman.

 

[ValleyGal]

...Jesus was actually there when Bruce was created. He perfectly knows The Father’s plans and intentions for this man. He was the word that formed Bruce perfectly in his mother’s womb.So Jesus looks at Bruce and loves him.
He loved Peter the hothead. He loved Nathaniel the racist. He loved Thomas the doubter. He even loved Judas the traitor. For sure he will love Bruce the transgender.
He also called out Peter when he was contradicting God’s will. He corrected James and John for being judgmental. He prophesied about Judas’ sin. For sure he would talk to Bruce about his sexuality.
But imagine that while they’re still talking, a mob of holy men arrive. They know that Jesus is a Friend of Sinners… “but come on! Not this kind of sinner!”
They ask each other, “What is Jesus doing with this “guy”… alone in the temple?”
The one Pharisee says, “It’s like that time he spoke to the fornicator lady near the well in Samaria.”
An older Rabbi remembers, “And like that evening when the harlot washed his feet with her hair.”
The newer Sadducee adds, “Or the time the tax collector became his disciple.”
The other Pharisee reminds them, “Guys, it’s like the other million times we have seen him with the ugly and the dirty and the sinful.”
And the chief priest replies, “He’s just one of them, you know, a glutton and a drunkard… but he’s pretending to be one of us, a teacher and a Rabbi.”
These religious leaders (who know the Bible very well) remind Jesus that Bruce was caught in the act of sexual immorality. They ask the Lord if he remembers the Law of Moses. Specifically the verses that talk against men sleeping with men and the reasons for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, “And this guy wants to be a woman?!? Well, let’s stone him like one!”
Gracefully, Jesus bends down and writes on the dirt.
The newer Sadducee adds shamefully, “Oh God… not this again.”
Yes, they all know what’s coming. They have seen it before. John 8 is fresh in their hearts. The woman caught in the act of adultery (Read more on that here) And although they know the story (everyone in their world knows the story) they still judge, still demand, still bring rocks.
Nevertheless, Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever, gets up and says, “He who is free of sin, throw the first stone.”
One by one, they leave.
They go back to the search. To find the worst kind of sin. Another kind of adulterous woman. Another one like Bruce.
And for 2,000 years holy men have kept trying to get Jesus to throw a stone.
We do. But he never will....

How God Made Bruce Jenner - HAPPY SONSHIP

 

[bluegreysky]

Yeah there's this huge liberal agenda to get rid of gender roles I've noticed. Men wanting to do feminine things without getting judged, women wanting to do men's jobs and be the head of their own families without getting judged. People wanting to dress as the opposite sex.
In some cases, some of that behavior might be neccesary like when a woman is abandoned by her husband and has to raise her own children...then she needs to be the man and the woman in the house.
Or a man feels called to be a nurse in a facility where it's all female staff?
that happens.
But alot of the agenda has to do with legalizing gay marriage.
Our pastor says the horrible things straight people are doing to marriage like cheating and getting divorced over stupid stuff is actually worse for the marriage institution than the gays getting married. And God teaches to love the person, hate the sin.
I just don't really agree with blurring all the gender lines so that we can't tell who is a man and who is a woman anymore. how will we be able to carry out the biblical roles we were given, even in a slightly unorthodox way, if they do that?

Last fall I baked a gender-reveal cake for a pregnant friend. I posted it on facebook, it said "Will baby ____ wear bows or bow-ties?" And my extremely liberal ex-roommate posted a passive-agressive status the same day that "gender reveal parties are stupid because the kid should get to grow up to be whoever they want to be"

Sorry, some people will hate me for this, but I think the gender roles need to stay. or else society will go into more chaos than it already is.

 

[Dave-W]

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.


Remember in that day all clothing was rectangual sheets wrapped around the body.

 

[bluegreysky]

But nowadays, there's shirts with floral print for guys and basketball-style jerseys with camo print for girls.

My mom always said actions speak louder than words,
so I think what probably matters most is what these people are doing not wearing.
Like a woman in a sports bra with a baggy jersey and a baseball cap who is a great mother and takes good care of her husband.
Or a man who is in touch with his feminine side, has a "manscaped" face and a paisely shirt on but leads his family as the head of the household in a Godly way.
In the same way, a very feminine woman with a beautiful dress can take part in homosexual behavior with another woman.

 

[DZoolander]

Honestly, I'm pretty understanding about certain things like homosexuality. In my mind it goes kind of like "I love my wife, she's a woman. A gay person loves his/her partner, they're the same sex". So to me - being gay is kind of the same thing I experience - just directed differently.

(and I'm not interested in a theological debate on the right-ness or wrong-ness of it...I'm just saying it makes sense to me.)

Transgender stuff, however, is a different animal in my eyes. I don't get that whatsoever and honestly it's always kinda rubbed me badly. To me, it strikes of a profoundly confused/disturbed person.

I suppose I might feel differently if gender reassignment were actually possible...but it's not. A female-to-male trans is *not* a man. Even in the best of scenarios where it's done really really well - it's still just a surgically/hormonally created facsimile of a man. Same thing goes with a male to female.

So, there's all this consternation and self loathing that must go on - which can never resolve itself. I can't imagine the insanity that must be behind that.

At least that's how I look at it.

As for whether or not it's a sin - in and of itself - meh - I dunno. I don't see it in that kind of light. Healthy? Sign of a stable mind? Ehhh not so much. Sin - ehhh - dunno.

 

[LinkH]

The Bible says all that do such are an abomination to the Lord, so I couldn't do so in good conscience. Some things in the Old Testament were sins for everyone, not just Israelis. That seems to be an idea underlying the letter in Acts 15 for Gentiles, especially considering the very similar decisions that Judaism came up with a few decades later if Talmudic sources recorded traditions legally.

The Deuteronomy passage says that all who do cross dressing are an abomination to the LORD. I couldn't do such a thing in good conscience.

eZoolander brought up gender reassignment surgery. I agree that a doctor mutilating someone doesn't make him a woman or him a man. If our world were a bit more sane, doctors would lose their licenses for mutilating people at their own request in order to encourage them in their emotional, mental, and spiritual problems.

 

[mkgal1]

From what I understand.....the word "abomination" always has something to do with sacrifices. Since we aren't participating in sacrifices these days (thank Goodness!).....then I don't believe those verses apply to much in our lives.

Is it considered "mutilating" someone when they have a cesarean section done? When plastic surgery is done to repair a cleft palette? Why *not* encourage people for the sake of their emotional, mental, and spiritual sake? These surgeries aren't done without a lot of preparation and counseling---and it doesn't promote their problems, it helps to alleviate them (often times saving their physical life as well). We are more than just the physical. Didn't Christ say He looks beyond the external? Shouldn't we make attempts to understand that mystery?

 

[mkgal1]

If anyone is interested.....there is a great video from a church forum at All Saint's church in Pasadena discussing this topic (actually---the topic of transgender). You can search YT for it and it should be easy to find. Not all denominations believe it's sinful.

 

[annafullofgrace]

Yeah there's this huge liberal agenda to get rid of gender roles I've noticed. Men wanting to do feminine things without getting judged, women wanting to do men's jobs and be the head of their own families without getting judged. People wanting to dress as the opposite sex.
In some cases, some of that behavior might be neccesary like when a woman is abandoned by her husband and has to raise her own children...then she needs to be the man and the woman in the house.
Or a man feels called to be a nurse in a facility where it's all female staff?
that happens.
But alot of the agenda has to do with legalizing gay marriage.
Our pastor says the horrible things straight people are doing to marriage like cheating and getting divorced over stupid stuff is actually worse for the marriage institution than the gays getting married. And God teaches to love the person, hate the sin.
I just don't really agree with blurring all the gender lines so that we can't tell who is a man and who is a woman anymore. how will we be able to carry out the biblical roles we were given, even in a slightly unorthodox way, if they do that?

Last fall I baked a gender-reveal cake for a pregnant friend. I posted it on facebook, it said "Will baby ____ wear bows or bow-ties?" And my extremely liberal ex-roommate posted a passive-agressive status the same day that "gender reveal parties are stupid because the kid should get to grow up to be whoever they want to be"

Sorry, some people will hate me for this, but I think the gender roles need to stay. or else society will go into more chaos than it already is.[/QUOTE]

Agreed!

 

[mkgal1]

how will we be able to carry out the biblical roles we were given, even in a slightly unorthodox way, if they do that?

Biblical roles?

Like:

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.~Eph 4:32

or

the LORD has told you what is good, and this is what he requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.~Micah 6:8

and

For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation. ~1st Thess 5

and

For once you were full of darkness, but now you have light from the Lord. So live as people of light!~Eph 5:8

more specifically:

Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Don't repay evil for evil. Don't retaliate with insults when people insult you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God has called you to do, and he will bless you for it.~1st Peter 3:9

.....those describe well what seems to be our most crucial roles. Do we really need more on our plates when we don't quite seem know how to handle this much?

 

[Thunder Peel]

Men wearing womens' jeans should be a sin. It doesn't look good, guys.

 

[sdmsanjose]

By MKGAL1
how will we be able to carry out the biblical roles we were given, even in a slightly unorthodox way, if they do that?


Biblical roles?

Like:
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.~Eph 4:32
or
the LORD has told you what is good, and this is what he requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.~Micah 6:8
and
For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation. ~1st Thess 5

and

For once you were full of darkness, but now you have light from the Lord. So live as people of light!~Eph 5:8

more specifically:
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Don't repay evil for evil. Don't retaliate with insults when people insult you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God has called you to do, and he will bless you for it.~1st Peter 3:9
.....those describe well what seems to be our most crucial roles. Do we really need more on our plates when we don't quite seem know how to handle this much?

Great post MK!
It seems to me that God gave us a LOT more passages for us to be doing what you have described above rather than being the sin police!

 

[mkgal1]

Great post MK!
It seems to me that God gave us a LOT more passages for us to be doing what you have described above rather than being the sin police!

Thanks, Stan.

I saw a quote the other day, "counting other people's sin doesn't make you a saint". I've yet to see any biblical evidence that we are to place our priority there (in fact---it was pointed out to me a little while ago that in the account of the woman caught in adultery---allegedly---Christ didn't say the line, "go and sin no more" until all the others had walked away (not being w/o sin themselves). To me......that says that it's an issue He'd like to keep just between Himself and the woman.

 

[RDKirk]

In the wake of the Bruce Jenner announcement, I'm throwing this out there, because honestly, I don't know what to think, and my husband thinks I'm heretical for even questioning it.

I know that God made male and female, created He them. So to me, gender reassignment is an affront to God's creation and should not be done. The bible also speaks at length about homosexuality.

But a guy wanting to dress like a girl?

The bible does have exhortations to husbands and wives and their responsibilities to teach other. But where in the bible does it say that men should dress as men, and women should dress as women? Is it more that society creates man-made stipulations as to what those gender dress stereotypes are?

If you have some verses to share that relate to this subject, I'd love to take note of them. Because I'm honestly just trying to wrap my head around this subject. Hopefully this won't start a flaming war. Just looking for clarity and respectful debate if it comes to that.

You've already gotten Deuteronomy 22:5: A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

As has been noted, this isn't talking about specific items of clothing. This is talking about dressing to appear as the other gender.

But I'll give you here the same answer I always give to the question, "Is x a sin?"

"Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible but not everything is edifying." 1 Corinthians 10.

"Everything is permissible" means that we aren't going by the written code anymore. We're not asking "what is the verse" or "where does it say in the Bible?" That's merely looking for a law.

That's what the one-talent steward did, who was so afraid of doing the wrong thing that he failed to do the right thing.

We as Christians are held to a higher standard: What does it profit the Lord? Does cross dressing benefit you as a Christian? Does it benefit other Christians? Does it benefit the Body of Christ? Is it edifying to you as a Christian? Edifying to other Christians?

If the answer is truly "yes," then go with it.

 

[Odetta]

FYI, my post was not about pointing out sin and passing judgement. It stemmed from the fact that when my boys played dress up when they were little, they always went for mommy's shoes and clothes, not daddy's. For the shoes, I think they just wanted to be taller, because they always chose heels. I think it was more due to smell for the clothes part, because it was always dirty clothes they chose to play with, lol. My youngest will still to this day, sometimes grab an article of my clothing to sleep with as a security blanket, and he's 11.

Anyway, I started thinking, what if one of my sons came to me and said he wanted to dress like a woman? As a parent, I'm called to point them towards Christ, teach them God's precepts and commandments, etc. That's the reason I asked about biblical references so that I would know how and what to teach.

 

[DZoolander]

Ehhh - I'm just not on board with it. Don't get me wrong - that doesn't mean that I'm going to try and lambaste anyone over it - or get into their business - I'm simply commenting about my opinion of it.

I can't think of any issues that are more confused than those revolving around gender. There is absolutely no consistency of thought - and everyone talks out of both sides of their mouths with it.

For example - let's say someone had a son that liked to play with dolls and had the temerity to complain about it. I can absolutely guarantee you that the response from most people would be "That's not a sign of being feminine. There's nothing to be concerned about. Masculine people can play with dolls."

Then take another situation where someone says "I knew I was gay from when I was 5 years old - because I liked to play with dolls" - the EXACT same people that took the stance above that playing with dolls is in no way a sign of anything will be lauding the second guy for being so self aware that he understood the implications of playing with dolls.

People want to have it both ways...and while I understand that it revolves around the idea of compassion...I'm sorry but it reeks of fuzzy thinking.

Then you get into the transgender stuff. Like I said before - that's a whole new level of bizzarro in my eyes for a variety of reasons.

First - let's get a little philosophical here. All of that stuff is predicated around the idea that "I feel like I'm a woman" (when you're a man) or "I feel like a man" (when you're a woman). To be honest - I don't know what the heck that means.

My understanding of what it means to "be" anything ends with my understanding of what it means to be me. I'm a man. Link is a man. Autumn is a man. Stan is a man. The fact we share that quality does not mean that I truly have any insight on what the experience of being Stan is like. I may be able to empathize on a situational basis with him on things based upon shared cultural experiences - but I have zero understanding of what it truly means to walk around in his shoes. The fact we are both male does not change that one bit.

So to that end - I don't *know* what it means to be a man - because I have absolutely nothing to compare it against. I may attribute certain feelings that I have to "maleness" - but who knows if that's a shared feeling? Questions of what it would be like to be me in a different form are absolutely meaningless - as I would have to have something else to compare it against (which I don't).

So - all this talk about "I feel like I experience life as something I'm not" to me is crazy talk. All you know is what it's like to be you. Anything else is just a form of cognitive discord.

...and it's a form of cognitive discord that is so invasive in their lives that they take extraordinary measures to mutilate themselves. Really - when it comes down to it - that's what it is.

If I go out and buy a toyota MR2 and get a Ferrari body kit - I don't now have a Ferrari. Same thing with sex changes. The fact you whacked off your wiener, shoved some implants into your chest, shaved your Adams apple and took some hormones does not make you a woman. You're a facsimile of a woman.

And...that's the part that really makes me feel sorry for them. For all the angst, all the pain, all the other nonsense they go through...they will never get what they want. Just as the MR2 will never be a Ferrari, they will never be the opposite sex. They might have a combination of factors like body type, good surgeon, etc...where they can pull it off where people don't point, stare and laugh...but...deep down they must know it's just an illusion/facade.

Then you get into other areas like personal relationships.

Like - that Chaz Bono person. Chaz was with someone before she/he got the sex change. I assume that person thought of themself as a lesbian. Then Chaz gets the sex change. Let's say that person stayed with her/him. What is that person now? Straight? How does that play into the stuff about "sexual orientation is not a choice"?

Personally, I don't think sexual orientation is a choice. I think that person with Chaz Bono still considers herself a lesbian. She may be with Chaz...but how does that now play into it? If she's still a lesbian - what does that say about what she thinks of Chaz's operation? Clearly not that Chaz truly became a man.

The only other option is that the partner is in love with Chaz - and staying with Chaz because she loves Chaz regardless of whatever form she/he takes. But - it certainly isn't a man. When it comes down to it - she loves Chaz for being a testosterone infused/surgically altered/damaged woman.

...and if that's all you have to look forward to for all your pain and suffering - that's a pretty sad lot.