Is Christianty elitist?

[My Shalom]

I would be most interested in how you come to the conclusion that most people on this planet find (The Christian) God. Are you possibly implying that any of the religions and their Gods are acceptable?

Jesus tells us his sheep know his voice.
And with Christianity being the foremost populace faith on a planet boasting(?) a global population of over 7 billion that says the majority of people on this planet find the Christian God.
To the second part of your question, it would appear the other religions with their gods are acceptable to those adhering to those. And that would be presumed to be a voice that calls those people there as well.

There's just one issue however when speaking of , as you put it, "the Christian God". There is only one way home, to God, and that is through the Christ.

 

[com7fy8]

the simplest people have been the most famous members of the church

I did not think of this. Well - - if very simple people could become great Christian leaders, this could help to show how Christianity is not elitist.

Also, God who made the whole universe has sent His own Son Jesus to us. Yet, we humans have been sinners, and into unforgiveness > yet, God who is so superior to us is so generously forgiving. But God is not conceited, but willing to have us, to forgive us and share His very own love with us > Romans 5:5. So, the God of Christianity is not elitist . . . not conceited . . . if His very own Son suffered on the cross and died for us. And right "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) He shares His very own love with each of us who are His children > this is very intimate and personal of God . . . not elitist and not being distant and into how superior He is.

By the way, you can see how unforgiveness is anti-God and can be in cultures in any group of people, including in back jungles. So, there is this anti-Jesus spirit anywhere because of Satan's spirit of evil (Ephesians 2:2), and this keeps people from knowing God; or it would keep them from knowing Him, even if those people were to hear the gospel. And before you jump to accept the claim that many people are Christians, you might do some research to see how forgiving ones are, if they say they are Christians > Ephesians 4:31-32 says >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

This is not only an ideal or just a command; it is a prescription of what becomes a description of how we change because of Jesus living in us. So, you might check to see if each person really is being changed to become "tenderhearted" in how one relates in love with people, and if each person is becoming a forgiving person . . . "even as God in Christ forgave you."

None of the false gods are about trusting in God's own Son who is Jesus, and then depending on how God's grace changes us . . . corrects our nature . . . so we become "tenderhearted" in how we love any and all people while also becoming forgiving; and "even as God", I offer, means how our Heavenly Father is lovingly and tenderly and generously all-forgiving, not grudgingly or just in order to get someone out of our minds . . . but with hope for a person > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). I will offer this is not how make-believe gods are, and not what selfish humans would make up.

There is only one way home, to God, and that is through the Christ.

Yes

 

[Gumph]

He shines to all, but if ones are blind they see only darkness. Our own nature has a lot to do with if we find God or not.

Once again this gives the reason why you believe so many fail. My question is more about whether this should not be a reason for great concern. Does such a large failure rate not concern you that there may be something wrong with the system?

And some number of people claiming to be Christians are not about seeking God who is all-loving and who requires us also to become all-loving like He is. So, it is not enough to go by what people claim about themselves, on questionnaires.

Does that not just make the situation even worse?

Well, the Bible is like an automobile manual. If you were to live on the North Pole and all you ever have used for transportation is a sled pulled by dogs, you could study an automobile manual and have a problem understanding it . . . since you need to experience a car in order to discover all that the words mean.

This seems to agree with the suggestion that Christianity is only for a select few, does it not?

Except for one thing > God is our Father; and He is about family caring and sharing love; so He has us included in His communicating

This implies that he uses other means to communicate. What may I ask are these other means?

Humans in sin are the ones who are elitist . . . glorifying their own independence and ego's free wills . . . loving those whom they can use for what they want; and people who are like this can then see God as being how they are, and criticize Him instead of seeing how they themselves are their main problem.

I though all humans were in sin?
I do not see how those examples refer to elitism. They may be bad characteristics, but I cannot see how they refer to elitism.

 

[Gumph]

What you need to grasp, Gumph, is that Christianity is not at its core a system of beliefs. It's not a thing of the head at all but of the heart. At some point we surrender to the One who is allowing us to wrestle with Him, and we allow Him to love us.

Fair enough, but why is this system used which has such a high failure rate?

If you don't want to believe, there is nothing anyone can do, and God will not violate that boundary because it's truly all you have. If you want to believe - if you want Him - there is nothing that will stand in His way in your life because He wants relationship with each and every one of us silly humans.

I can't imagine how anyone would not want to believe in an almighty, kind and loving being. I think most just don't have sufficient reason to do so.

A little off topic, but why would such a powerful entity want a personal relationship with us mortals?

 

[Gumph]

Smaller...almost certainly. MUCH smaller...I don't know how we'd know. There are people, Christians, here on CF who insist that everyone will be saved through Christ, even if they have no commitment to him. And most of the rest of them would tell you that we observers have no way of knowing with absolute certainty who is a committed believer and who is only a formal follower. Good theology says that this is known only to God.

This uncertainty worries me. Its like signing up for college without knowing what the pass mark is.
Whether or not someone is committed or not is only going to make the numbers worse IMO.

In sum, then, the "elitist" claim seems to me to be a criticism of a concept about sincerity being important, rather than a distinctive of the religion. And when you think about it, almost every other religion could be said to be "elitist" if Christianity is to be labeled as such, for I know of none that thinks merely calling oneself an adherent means much if you haven't changed anything else about yourself.

I agree, they all fall into the same category of seemingly only being for a selected chosen few.

It's helpful, but the first thing that comes to mind is that one of the most popular Bible verses tells us that God would have all to be saved, so...?

I seem to be missing your point. I said he only becomes apparent to a select few and you say he wants us to all be saved. To me this just indicates failure in communication.

But now you are talking about being an expert, not a disciple. Read John 3: 16 and you have the gist of the religion, almost any Christian would tell you.

If one is prepared to accept the advice and teachings of others, then I suppose one can settle for being a disciple. Its a dangerous decision though, as you are relying on the information being without bias or error on an extremely important topic.

I just feel that for something so crucial, it is essential that everyone should become an expert.

Which brings me to another concern. Why is it so hard to become an expert on such a critical subject?

I don't remember saying that, so maybe you should refresh my memory before I comment further.

You didn't, MyShalom lead me to believe that is what he meant.

 

[Gumph]

Jesus tells us his sheep know his voice.
And with Christianity being the foremost populace faith on a planet boasting(?) a global population of over 7 billion that says the majority of people on this planet find the Christian God.

Ummm, not following the logic, sorry. I realise its a difficult number to measure, but general consensus seems to indicate that there are about 2bil Christians out of the 7bil people on the planet. That is not a majority. The majority is 5 billion non Christians. It does seem to be the largest religion, but non Christians still far exceed Christians, and the number for "True Christians" may be even smaller.

To the second part of your question, it would appear the other religions with their gods are acceptable to those adhering to those. And that would be presumed to be a voice that calls those people there as well.

There's just one issue however when speaking of , as you put it, "the Christian God". There is only one way home, to God, and that is through the Christ.

These two lines confuse me. The first seems to say that any God will do, depending on who calls the person. The second says only the Christian God will do. Would you mind explaining further?

 

[Albion]

Does such a large failure rate not concern you that there may be something wrong with the system?

It's a sensible question. And it's one that has troubled a lot of people over the years and even led to the launching of new denominations.

But it's not a 'system,' not something that man created or that must square with man's ideas about fairness, due process, and equality.

When a person finally comes to realize that the Creator of all can call (or not call) anyone he chooses to, and for any reason, the sense of unease that underlies this kind of questioning will dissipate.

 

[Albion]

If one is prepared to accept the advice and teachings of others, then I suppose one can settle for being a disciple. Its a dangerous decision though, as you are relying on the information being without bias or error on an extremely important topic.

I just feel that for something so crucial, it is essential that everyone should become an expert.

An expert on...what? I could aspire to being an expert on how automobiles are built and work, but if what I am seeking is to get from point A to point B, knowing the basics IS what I'm after and what I need.

In essence, Christianity is the most straightforward and uncomplicated of all religions, but that doesn't mean it's not possible to devote years to becoming a theologian if you choose to. That won't make you any more likely to get to point B (i.e. Heaven), though.

 

[talitha]

Not all camels are made of money......

 

[Gumph]

But it's not a 'system,' not something that man created or that must square with man's ideas about fairness, due process, and equality.

You do seem to be correct, I just wonder why it is not that way.

When a person finally comes to realize that the Creator of all can call (or not call) anyone he chooses to, and for any reason, the sense of unease that underlies this kind of questioning will dissipate.

I am not sure I understand why that would be the case. If anything it might appear more random and increase uncertainty, and reinforces the chosen minority theory.

An expert on...what? I could aspire to being an expert on how automobiles are built and work, but if what I am seeking is to get from point A to point B, knowing the basics IS what I'm after and what I need.

Absolutely, I for one have no interest in what is under the "lid" of a car's engine. I am happy as long as it works.
But the analogy is a little off IMO. This is no mere trip to the shops. Its more like I am setting off on a journey from one end of Africa to the other. This is no minor task, this is my one and only life we are talking about.

I would want to carefully select the type of vehicle, perhaps do some additions myself. I would want to understand as much about the vehicle as possible in case of a break down or an accident. I am not going to simply accept the assurances of a car salesman. This journey requires me to become an expert.

Moving away from analogies, the point is that Christianity is making a massive claim. My personal view is that such magnitude requires verification of the facts. Verifying the facts around Christianity is a monumental task.

In essence, Christianity is the most straightforward and uncomplicated of all religions, but that doesn't mean it's not possible to devote years to becoming a theologian if you choose to. That won't make you any more likely to get to point B (i.e. Heaven), though.

I am not implying that becoming a theologian makes you any more likely to become a successful Christian. The messages seem to be generally simple in nature. I am saying that verifying the authenticity and accuracy of Christianity is a huge task. Is this not problematic for such an important topic? Is this subject not too important to simply take the word of others?

The underlying messages in Christianity do seem to be simple and possibly straight forward, but I have to disagree on the complicated bit. The bible is a mass of apparent contradictions, confusing symbolism and unusual phrasing that requires it to be taught to learners. That worries me immensely. A book so important should be easy to understand.

 

[Albion]

You do seem to be correct, I just wonder why it is not that way.

Well, I really don't see why we should think that God--the creator of all that exists and a being far above our ordinary powers of understanding--should function just like a very wise human being. Yet that's exactly what people tend to do.

I am not sure I understand why that would be the case.

It's what people mean when they say "Let go and 'let God.'"

That said, I'm sure that some people would react differently, but I believe that most people feel some relief when they come to the realization that God decides all of this. It's like understanding, after years of mental wrestling with some insolvable problem, that it's in the hands of the only one who knows what he's doing and that he'll do whatever it is that he has willed.

Absolutely, I for one have no interest in what is under the "lid" of a car's engine. I am happy as long as it works.
But the analogy is a little off IMO. This is no mere trip to the shops. Its more like I am setting off on a journey from one end of Africa to the other. This is no minor task, this is my one and only life we are talking about.

Sure. Point B is really important. But still, getting there is your concern, not every last thing about this history of automobiles.

I would want to carefully select the type of vehicle, perhaps do some additions myself. I would want to understand as much about the vehicle as possible in case of a break down or an accident. I am not going to simply accept the assurances of a car salesman. This journey requires me to become an expert.

Not really. You're describing the need to have the fundamentals correct so to have a reasonable assurance of a safe and successful trip. If we return to the religion comparison, that much can be accomplished by little more than reading John 3:16 and a few other verses. No one would call you an expert in theology, but any good pastor will say you've made the commitment that matters.

Moving away from analogies, the point is that Christianity is making a massive claim.

Yes.

I am not implying that becoming a theologian makes you any more likely to become a successful Christian. The messages seem to be generally simple in nature. I am saying that verifying the authenticity and accuracy of Christianity is a huge task. Is this not problematic for such an important topic? Is this subject not too important to simply take the word of others?

I understand, but in the end, God cannot be proved. This is beyond the "Scientific Method," etc. No matter how expert one becomes on the religion, he will have to make an act of faith in the end--or not.

 

[oi_antz]

Restrained desires that have no negative impact may be just as troubling.

Can you give some examples?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Fair enough, but why is this system used which has such a high failure rate?

I don't think that it has a high failure rate, per se and it is not a system at all.

It is that many do not want to hear the message or have preconceived supposition to what they believe. Many people as we all know come to God when they are at their lowest point. Like many of us pray when we really need something. That is when you reach out or many people do.

 

[ToBeLoved]

A little off topic, but why would such a powerful entity want a personal relationship with us mortals?

It does make you wonder, doesn't it. And the only answer is really it is because God wants us to love Him using our free will. It is that relationship that is not forced upon someone, but that someone chooses that they want to have. It's really beautiful.

 

[aiki]

Absolutely, I for one have no interest in what is under the "lid" of a car's engine. I am happy as long as it works.
But the analogy is a little off IMO. This is no mere trip to the shops. Its more like I am setting off on a journey from one end of Africa to the other. This is no minor task, this is my one and only life we are talking about.

I would want to carefully select the type of vehicle, perhaps do some additions myself. I would want to understand as much about the vehicle as possible in case of a break down or an accident. I am not going to simply accept the assurances of a car salesman. This journey requires me to become an expert.

Moving away from analogies, the point is that Christianity is making a massive claim. My personal view is that such magnitude requires verification of the facts. Verifying the facts around Christianity is a monumental task.

You seem to have mistaken a set of propositions, a system of beliefs, for the Person to whom they point. Christianity is at its heart a relationship with a Person: Jesus Christ. And Jesus says to us,

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

How can you expect to become an expert in relating with Jesus, in living in fellowship with him, until you actually are in fellowship with Him? You can know all there is to know about Jesus and never truly know him. The questions you really ought to be asking, then, are who is Jesus and can I trust my life to him? The best place to go for information about Jesus is to the Gospels. You will find no better historical documents about him. Can you trust these documents? I certainly think so. What concrete reasons do you have not to trust them?

In the end, though, what you really need is to meet with God personally. No amount of head knowledge can substitute for an actual, personal experience of God. If God is real, and if He desires that you would know Him, then you should be searching for Him, not for answers to the sorts of more academic questions with which you're presently preoccupied. And God promises if you are searching for Him - really, truly searching - that you will find Him.

Jeremiah 29:13
13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Selah.

 

[Gumph]

Well, I really don't see why we should think that God--the creator of all that exists and a being far above our ordinary powers of understanding--should function just like a very wise human being. Yet that's exactly what people tend to do.

Indeed we do, and if he chooses a better way, should he we not expect him to explain his reasoning to us?

That said, I'm sure that some people would react differently, but I believe that most people feel some relief when they come to the realization that God decides all of this. It's like understanding, after years of mental wrestling with some insolvable problem, that it's in the hands of the only one who knows what he's doing and that he'll do whatever it is that he has willed.

Is that not the same feeling we get when we delegate or shift a problem to someone else? Shirking responsibility for the decision with the resultant "weight off our shoulders" sensation?

Sure. Point B is really important. But still, getting there is your concern, not every last thing about this history of automobiles.

For the analogy to work a bit better we have to have something unique. I can see cars working around me everyday. I have experience driving them. When it comes to religion, I have no experience nor can I see it working anywhere.

A salesman comes to me and says he has a car that will solve all my trans Africa problems because it can fly. Now, how much research into the back ground of the salesman do you think will be appropriate? He won't let me try out or even see this fancy car until I have paid for it in full. I'm gonna need some history on this dude and would like some detailed reasoning on how this chunk of metal will be flying.

Not really. You're describing the need to have the fundamentals correct so to have a reasonable assurance of a safe and successful trip. If we return to the religion comparison, that much can be accomplished by little more than reading John 3:16 and a few other verses. No one would call you an expert in theology, but any good pastor will say you've made the commitment that matters.

Nope, sorry. Christianity is asking a lot more from me than just reading some verses.

I understand, but in the end, God cannot be proved. This is beyond the "Scientific Method," etc. No matter how expert one becomes on the religion, he will have to make an act of faith in the end--or not.

And there in lies a massive issue. We are being asked by men to make a monumental leap of faith and trust them about a God that cannot be "proved" or who will even show himself. All we have is the words and promises of men. Is that not an unfair request from an almighty God?

 

[Gumph]

Can you give some examples?

Restrained desires causing problems could possibly include:

- A teenager bottles up his rage until the last straw breaks him and he goes on a shooting rampage.
- A religion teaches a husband to only use sex for procreation. The marriage dissolves as physical love is no longer being used to help the bond.
- A culture prevents two in love youngsters from getting married because that have different ethnicities.
- A culture of isolating teenage girls and boys from each other whilst growing up causes insecurities when they become adults.
- A law prevents a spouse from terminating the pain of their terminally ill partner.
- A gay couple restrains their love for each other due to society views, causing both much anguish.
- A boy studies medicine despite having a love for engineering, because that's what his Dad said he must do.
- A girl restrains herself from meeting the boy across the road because its not the done thing.

Ultimately I wonder why it is even necessary to restrain a desire if it has no negative impact on anyone else.

 

[Gumph]

I don't think that it has a high failure rate, per se and it is not a system at all.

Around 2 billion out of 7 billion is around a 30% pass rate. Do you not consider that a high failure rate?
"System" may not be the best word. Replace it with anything that covers this process called life that God wants us to travel through before he accepts us.

It is that many do not want to hear the message or have preconceived supposition to what they believe. Many people as we all know come to God when they are at their lowest point. Like many of us pray when we really need something. That is when you reach out or many people do.

The "message" is a little unclear. Actually that been polite. Many (most?) do not even see it.
You seem to be describing a crutch of sorts.

It does make you wonder, doesn't it. And the only answer is really it is because God wants us to love Him using our free will. It is that relationship that is not forced upon someone, but that someone chooses that they want to have. It's really beautiful.

Ummm, it is being forced on us if you believe the message. Its pretty much: do things my way, or face eternity in a burning hell. That is very limited free will and is hardly beautiful.

In any case you are still one step ahead of me in that you are making a decision based on a message you believe you have received. For the rest of us, we can't see this message and we're not sure what it is.

You seem to have mistaken a set of propositions, a system of beliefs, for the Person to whom they point. Christianity is at its heart a relationship with a Person: Jesus Christ.

How can you expect to become an expert in relating with Jesus ....

I don't, well not yet anyway. Wouldn't the first step be to first determine if Jesus exists? Once that is determined, then we can work on relating to him.

The questions you really ought to be asking, then, are who is Jesus and can I trust my life to him?

Excellent question.

The best place to go for information about Jesus is to the Gospels. You will find no better historical documents about him. Can you trust these documents? I certainly think so. What concrete reasons do you have not to trust them?

They are words from men, who heard stories from other men, who say they witnessed Jesus and his acts. These words have since been translated by men and interpreted by still more men as they explain it to us. What reason do we have to trust these men? I can only go on personal experience, and I know of nobody who has not at some stage told a lie, exaggerated or made a mistake. Therefore should we not require another source of information other than these Gospels?

In the end, though, what you really need is to meet with God personally. No amount of head knowledge can substitute for an actual, personal experience of God. If God is real, and if He desires that you would know Him, then you should be searching for Him, not for answers to the sorts of more academic questions with which you're presently preoccupied. And God promises if you are searching for Him - really, truly searching - that you will find Him.

That would be fantastic. In fact I think that is what everyone needs and in fact deserves.

A different line of thought: Why should I be expected to search for this God. My parents never made me look for them after birth. In fact that seems a rather cruel thing to do, does it not?

 

[Albion]

Indeed we do, and if he chooses a better way, should he we not expect him to explain his reasoning to us?

This comes down, I suppose, to a personal perspective. However, I don't see God as just a superhuman, and I don't think that he has to conform to whatever social standards are in the ascendency in our own culture at any certain point in time, no.

 

[aiki]

I don't, well not yet anyway. Wouldn't the first step be to first determine if Jesus exists? Once that is determined, then we can work on relating to him.

The question "Did Jesus exist?" has been thoroughly answered in the affirmative. Some fringe folk want to hold out that Jesus is not an actual figure in history, but this is no longer the general consensus of modern historians of Jesus' era. There are just too many historical references to him to reasonably deny that he really existed. Does Jesus exist today? Well, if he was God as he claimed to be, then it follows that he exists today. How do we know he is God? By his resurrection from the dead. Did he really rise from the dead? That is what the historical documents concerning Jesus' death, burial and resurrection indicate. Can we trust those documents? I think so, yes. Why? Because I have no good reason not to.

They are words from men, who heard stories from other men, who say they witnessed Jesus and his acts. These words have since been translated by men and interpreted by still more men as they explain it to us. What reason do we have to trust these men? I can only go on personal experience, and I know of nobody who has not at some stage told a lie, exaggerated or made a mistake. Therefore should we not require another source of information other than these Gospels?

Purely as historical documents, the Gospels are as valid as any other historical document. And the writing of the Gospels was close enough to the events they relate that they could have easily been challenged as false by people who had been witnesses to the events they recounted. But they weren't. And what extra-biblical accounts of Jesus there are bear out the Gospel accounts rather than contradict them. As for the fact that men wrote the Gospel accounts, well, men wrote all the historical documents from which we construct ancient history. Is our default position, then, to dismiss these ancient documents simply because men wrote them? Obviously not. The text of the New Testament has a staggering number of ancient extant manuscript copies from which the modern New Testament text may be accurately constructed and verified. No other ancient text contemporary with the New Testament comes anywhere close in this regard! This means that the New Testament I read today maintains very high fidelity to the original manuscripts. And there is only one step of translation between my English Bible and the ancient Greek New Testament, so there is no legitimate concern about meaning being lost or confused through a multitude of translations.

What reason do you have to trust the writers of the Gospel? What concrete reasons (not suspicions) do you have not to trust them? That they could have made a mistake or told a lie does not prove or guarantee that they did. It seems you've just assumed they're going to lie or be careless in their accounts of Jesus right out of the gate, but without any solid justification for doing so. Sounds like prejudice at work, not intellectual honesty.

That would be fantastic. In fact I think that is what everyone needs and in fact deserves.

A different line of thought: Why should I be expected to search for this God. My parents never made me look for them after birth. In fact that seems a rather cruel thing to do, does it not?

Here's how the apostle Paul responds to your thinking here:

Romans 1:18-19
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Every person has an innate and fundamental awareness of God that they "suppress in unrighteousness." No one is going to stand before God one day and say, "I had no idea you even existed!" That's just not gonna' wash. We all know God exists; we just don't like to admit it because we are sinful, self-centered creatures.

Selah.