Is Christianty elitist?

oi_antz

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So why did he create most people with a pride level that prevents them from being saved?
Are you sure that He did though? Children who are innocent never have a pride that resists Him.

Consider this: one day someone came around to collect some bricks from my place and his partner was helping him, and he mentioned how his trailer could take 1.5 tonnes. Well I have found out that even if springs and chassis are good for 1,500kg, the tyres are often not capable. So I looked at the side wall of the tyre and it said max 437kg, so I showed him. Since his partner was flirting, he didn't thank me for it, rather it seemed as though he would have preferred to not be told! So that's an example of pride that I thought of today, to tell you about. I don't think that guy's level of pride was created by God. I think that this is naturally the result of a society in which a person strives for recognition, producing competition, needing to feel as though he can look after himself and even wanting to be better than others. Yet, a man doesn't need to be that way. A man can be quite comfortable with himself, and grateful for help from those who are able, such as I offered. In fact, if I hadn't have told him that, it is quite likely one day he would have taken a load that exceeded the tyre's rated capacity. If something tragic had happened, then he'd rather have wished I had told him, so this is why I think the truth is that it was right for me to tell him and it was wrong for his pride to cause him to resent it.

It's just interesting to see this same pride with us, as we relate to God. If our understanding causes us to think His instructions are unreasonable, rather than to ask why, we will often just go ahead and later find out. I suppose you could see in that way, that there probably was some pride motivating the original sin.
 
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Mary7

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The best book for any seeker to read is "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. He was an Oxford Don and an atheist who became a Christian. He also wrote the Chronicles of Narnia.
" Mere Christianity" was written to unbelievers. Where you spend eternity makes it worth taking the time to read this little book :)
 
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aiki

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It seems to me that only some people are successful in finding or discovering God. Others fail in their search, are still looking, have given up looking, have found something else or never began in the first place. This latter group seems to far outnumber those who have been successful.

Is this not a cause for concern to Christians, that so many others fail?
Is it really necessary to make the search so difficult?

Blind post. Sorry.

What you describe of the few who find true salvation is quite biblical.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NKJV)
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


It is quite naturally of great concern to Christians that so many turn away from the salvation God offers to all. But God forces no one to accept His gift of life in Christ.

God doesn't make the search difficult; the difficulty is all on our end. We want to be self-centered, not God-centered, and this is where all the problems really lie. Paul the apostle wrote that every person has an innate knowledge of God that they suppress in unrighteousness. (Ro. 1:18-20) It isn't, then, that God is hard to find, but that we simply don't want to find Him.

Selah.
 
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brinny

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It seems to me, this describes people who care and push against the tide, much like a vegan does. That even though they work so hard for what they know is good, yet it is a heavy burden because nobody helps them and everyone makes them work harder. But that's just what I'm seeing. I only suggested that since you mentioned it and OP said he couldn't understand it, maybe you'd be able to explain a bit more to him why you thought it might be helpful to him. I wonder if this is similar to the idea you get when you read this.

Jesus is speaking spiritually here, is He not? The utter weariness of those who recognize how very weary they are in body, mind, heart, and soul, as they also recognize Who gives true rest for their weary selves. Jesus Himself tells us quite plainly in His own words here that it is HE Who provides this rest. This is Good News for the acutely weary and suffering.

This is welcome news and pure hope for such weariness and hopelessness.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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It seems to me that only some people are successful in finding or discovering God. Others fail in their search, are still looking, have given up looking, have found something else or never began in the first place. This latter group seems to far outnumber those who have been successful.

Is this not a cause for concern to Christians, that so many others fail?
Is it really necessary to make the search so difficult?

Its not a difficult stretch at all to connect the dots of creation by design, to a Designer ; all it takes is looking around and coming to learn just how meticulous the design of our universe is for the distinct reason of people surviving. Another major reason why people don't enter into a personal relationship with the Creator is that they really aren't looking ; they may not be looking due to wanting to do life THEIR own way , lifestyle choices, or simply not wanting to bow to someone greater than self . Many things keep a person away from God including but not limited to : Drugs, alchohol, sexual immorality which feels good, material gain, money making, delaying it for another time in ones life, and the like.

Many people simply don't want God in their lives because he would become a fly in the ointment,. FOr those that do love God, their earthly lives are meaningful, productive, fulfilling and they have real true hope of going to heaven to live in direct company of the Creator himself. Its an easy choice, but human pride gets in the way in most cases.
 
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Gumph

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Ok, not impossible, but difficult....

the question is...

is it worth it?

I'll never likely know. Currently I don't think so. All I see is a huge wall of complicated text. There are some promises of wonderful stuff on the other side of the text, but nothing concrete. Nothing that's going to make me spend years trying to decipher it.

Yeah the bit that I objected to is not that it isn't difficult to know Him, but that you said it is difficult to find Him. He is right there, everywhere, all the time.

If he would make this apparent, it would make this process so much simpler.

If these ideas seem to be in conflict and, in fact, contradict then you're right. That's the Crux Theologorum. It's the fact that we read in Scripture conflicting statements which, rather than choosing one over the other as Calvinists and Arminians do, we assert both are true, but do not try to reconcile them together or explain how they can be true together. It remains a paradox and a contradiction.

Because God has not revealed all things to us, we don't have all the answers. Often the answer to many tough theological questions is "I haven't the foggiest."

Its good to see the realisation of a paradox, and good that one admits every now and then that we don't know the answer.

I still concerns me that an all powerful God does not tell the full story.
 
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My Shalom

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It seems to me that only some people are successful in finding or discovering God. Others fail in their search, are still looking, have given up looking, have found something else or never began in the first place. This latter group seems to far outnumber those who have been successful.

Is this not a cause for concern to Christians, that so many others fail?
Is it really necessary to make the search so difficult?

The search isn't difficult. If someone feels compelled to seek God that can be their heart telling them they need God to feel a void in themselves.
Yes, you could say Christianity is elitist in that Jesus says no one comes to God except through him. Therefore all those other religions and their god's and goddesses are lacking in that they are not the source, the creator, the supreme being to which Jesus was referring as the sole.soul source for salvation.
But it isn't hard to find ones way to Christ. He opens his arms to all who seek him. And when they find him he will never cast them away.
 
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Gumph

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Do you look around you and not see that human's desires being unrestrained are a bad thing?

Unrestrained desires that impact negatively on others does indeed appear to be a bad thing.
Restrained desires that have no negative impact may be just as troubling.

In this way, selfishness is seen to be the real problem, not the desire. Of course, if you think this is not always the case, I'd certainly be interested to consider an example!

I can't see any fault with this position so far.

labor
Ok, where's the difficulty?

Why don't you take a shot at it?

What does this conjure up for you?

And here in lies one of my bigger issues. Why do these words result in discussion, debate, analysis and several interpretations? Surely something as critical as the rules for destination ever lasting life, should be crystal clear and unambiguous?

The issue is more related to the fact that God allowed Adam and Eve to produce a human race that was infected with the virus of sin, so that He could display His grace and mercy through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The Gospel is designed to show men that without Christ they have no hope of ever approaching God or entering Heaven or having fellowship with Him.

I think I may be missing your meaning. Its coming across that God planted or allowed a problem which only he could solve, so that he could later be seen to be the solution to the problem and therefore the hero.

Thus only relatively few will be saved. Others will resort to philosophy, false science, false religions, or anything other than the Cross of Christ -- a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

So you are the view that true Christianity is elitist - in the sense of it being meant for only a select few?
 
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Gumph

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Its not a difficult stretch at all to connect the dots of creation by design, to a Designer ; all it takes is looking around and coming to learn just how meticulous the design of our universe is for the distinct reason of people surviving. Another major reason why people don't enter into a personal relationship with the Creator is that they really aren't looking ; they may not be looking due to wanting to do life THEIR own way , lifestyle choices, or simply not wanting to bow to someone greater than self . Many things keep a person away from God including but not limited to : Drugs, alchohol, sexual immorality which feels good, material gain, money making, delaying it for another time in ones life, and the like.

Many people simply don't want God in their lives because he would become a fly in the ointment,. FOr those that do love God, their earthly lives are meaningful, productive, fulfilling and they have real true hope of going to heaven to live in direct company of the Creator himself. Its an easy choice, but human pride gets in the way in most cases.

I have no problem with the theory that a designer of sort exists. Connecting those dots to the one of a Christian God being the said designer is proving more difficult for me.

You have given many reasons for why so many people don't find God. Does that not then agree with the elitist / small group type religion mentioned in the OP, given that so few seem to successfully travel the right path?
 
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Gumph

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The search isn't difficult. If someone feels compelled to seek God that can be their heart telling them they need God to feel a void in themselves.
Yes, you could say Christianity is elitist in that Jesus says no one comes to God except through him. Therefore all those other religions and their god's and goddesses are lacking in that they are not the source, the creator, the supreme being to which Jesus was referring as the sole.soul source for salvation.
But it isn't hard to find ones way to Christ. He opens his arms to all who seek him. And when they find him he will never cast them away.

Fair enough. There does seem to be some convergence on the opinion that only a few will find God.
I find that problematic, but that's just an opinion. Perhaps there is a good reason. Pity its not obvious.
 
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Albion

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So you are the view that true Christianity is elitist - in the sense of it being meant for only a select few?

This "elitist" claim (or "select few" if we prefer that) still escapes me. Every time we get close to some point of mutual understanding (and by "we" I mean everyone here), your reply seems to be to the effect that if there is anything about the religion or God's plan that requires you to lift a finger to appreciate it or benefit from it, you say "Naaa. Too much trouble. I'd have to do something."

Not only does the word "elitism" not seem to describe this, but neither does "select few" seem to describe that attitude. It's not the case that those who do embrace the Savior are closing the door to you being in their number as well. Not at all.
 
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My Shalom

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Fair enough. There does seem to be some convergence on the opinion that only a few will find God.
I find that problematic, but that's just an opinion. Perhaps there is a good reason. Pity its not obvious.
Those "few" that find God would now tally as the majority population religious in the world that is currently populated by over 7 billion.
Those who find God are those who are called. Not the nominal one's who claim the name of Christian but don't behave as changed people. But those who are sincere of heart and are reborn and are literally made new in heart and mind thanks to the grace of God.
Seek and ye shall find. "Behold I stand at the door and knock..."
Have you ever seen that picture of Jesus at the door knocking? Notice that the door doesn't have a doorknob on his side?
 
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Job8

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So you are the view that true Christianity is elitist - in the sense of it being meant for only a select few?
Not at all. If all would believe, all would be saved without exception. But all must repent and be converted, so that their sins may be blotted out.
 
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brinny

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I'll never likely know. Currently I don't think so. All I see is a huge wall of complicated text. There are some promises of wonderful stuff on the other side of the text, but nothing concrete. Nothing that's going to make me spend years trying to decipher it.



If he would make this apparent, it would make this process so much simpler.



Its good to see the realisation of a paradox, and good that one admits every now and then that we don't know the answer.

I still concerns me that an all powerful God does not tell the full story.

that truly saddens me.

i'm sorry.
 
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brinny

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Unrestrained desires that impact negatively on others does indeed appear to be a bad thing.
Restrained desires that have no negative impact may be just as troubling.



I can't see any fault with this position so far.



And here in lies one of my bigger issues. Why do these words result in discussion, debate, analysis and several interpretations? Surely something as critical as the rules for destination ever lasting life, should be crystal clear and unambiguous?



I think I may be missing your meaning. Its coming across that God planted or allowed a problem which only he could solve, so that he could later be seen to be the solution to the problem and therefore the hero.



So you are the view that true Christianity is elitist - in the sense of it being meant for only a select few?

i'm sorry that it's so difficult for you.

and i'm sorry that no responses here in this thread, including mine, have seemed to help you.
 
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Gumph

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This "elitist" claim (or "select few" if we prefer that) still escapes me.

It simply appears to me that the number of people who "find God" (The Christian version) appears to be much smaller than the group who does not find him or even travel the path of finding him. In addition he only seems to make himself apparent to some people and not others. Does that perhaps better help explain my claim or rather query?

Every time we get close to some point of mutual understanding (and by "we" I mean everyone here), your reply seems to be to the effect that if there is anything about the religion or God's plan that requires you to lift a finger to appreciate it or benefit from it, you say "Naaa. Too much trouble. I'd have to do something."


Well, I'm spending time asking questions on forums such as this and I sometimes do the same offline, but one has to be careful discussing religion with people you know in the real world as it can be a very sensitive subject. I think that shows that I am prepared to do something.

What I have difficulty in doing is spending years of my life studying and trying to understand the meanings in a book. Then due the seriousness of its claims I would need to do some sort of research on the authors and the customs and practices of the time it was written. Anything short of that effort would be an injustice to the severity of the subject. If true, this is not a subject that can be dealt with half heartedly or based on advice from others. I would need to deal with it fully and understand it to the best of my abilities.

Not only does the word "elitism" not seem to describe this, but neither does "select few" seem to describe that attitude. It's not the case that those who do embrace the Savior are closing the door to you being in their number as well. Not at all.

Elitist does imply that a door is closed on others. I accept again that the word was probably a poor choice on my side. I did not mean to imply that Christians prevent others from joining their religion - its more likely exactly the opposite. Perhaps I should rather ask, why is there such a great failure rate? Several reason have been posted as to why the success numbers are so low and it concerns me greatly that if the Christian God exists, that so few are being saved and so many more are being cast aside. Why is this so?

Those "few" that find God would now tally as the majority population religious in the world that is currently populated by over 7 billion.
Those who find God are those who are called. Not the nominal one's who claim the name of Christian but don't behave as changed people. But those who are sincere of heart and are reborn and are literally made new in heart and mind thanks to the grace of God.

I would be most interested in how you come to the conclusion that most people on this planet find (The Christian) God. Are you possibly implying that any of the religions and their Gods are acceptable?
 
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Gumph

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Not at all. If all would believe, all would be saved without exception. But all must repent and be converted, so that their sins may be blotted out.

Ahh, but not all believe. It seems many more don't than do. Why should this be so?

that truly saddens me.

i'm sorry.

Does it not worry you too? Do you feel that my apprehension in trying to tackle the huge task of studying the bible is unwarranted? If so does it not concern you that so many others may have similar concerns?

i'm sorry that it's so difficult for you.

and i'm sorry that no responses here in this thread, including mine, have seemed to help you.

On the contrary, I have found many responses here to be interesting and I thank all who have participated. Keep in mind that although many of the posts are directed at me specifically, I am sure that there will be many readers who have similar questions and the answers may be of help to them. That is one of the beauties of a written forum.
 
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com7fy8

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It simply appears to me that the number of people who "find God" (The Christian version) appears to be much smaller than the group who does not find him or even travel the path of finding him. In addition he only seems to make himself apparent to some people and not others.
He shines to all, but if ones are blind they see only darkness. Our own nature has a lot to do with if we find God or not. I offer, that a person starts in sin, in selfishness, in being concerned mainly or only about oneself and about ones he or she wants to use. So, in this nature and its ways, no way can we be seeking the real God who is all-loving.

And some number of people claiming to be Christians are not about seeking God who is all-loving and who requires us also to become all-loving like He is. So, it is not enough to go by what people claim about themselves, on questionnaires.

What I have difficulty in doing is spending years of my life studying and trying to understand the meanings in a book.
Well, the Bible is like an automobile manual. If you were to live on the North Pole and all you ever have used for transportation is a sled pulled by dogs, you could study an automobile manual and have a problem understanding it . . . since you need to experience a car in order to discover all that the words mean.

Like this, the Bible is meant to be discovered in sharing with God. God is personal. So, if we deal with the Bible in only an intellectual and scholarly way and only by comparing Bible things with how humans in culture have understood things, we miss how God Himself would personally share with us. And He is able to communicate, personally; but we are the ones who can be impersonal, which keeps us from being able to connect with Him.

If true, this is not a subject that can be dealt with half heartedly or based on advice from others.
Except for one thing > God is our Father; and He is about family caring and sharing love; so He has us included in His communicating :) God does have people whom He uses to help people, but if we are isolated with our idol of independence and our own ego's free will, we can be unable to benefit from how God would use people to help us.

Elitist does imply that a door is closed on others. I accept again that the word was probably a poor choice on my side. I did not mean to imply that Christians prevent others from joining their religion - its more likely exactly the opposite. Perhaps I should rather ask, why is there such a great failure rate?
Humans in sin are the ones who are elitist . . . glorifying their own independence and ego's free wills . . . loving those whom they can use for what they want; and people who are like this can then see God as being how they are, and criticize Him instead of seeing how they themselves are their main problem.

Satan was in Heaven itself, and Heaven was not good enough for Satan > there is nothing wrong with Heaven, I will offer. Satan had perfect circumstances with all the loving which is in Heaven; but because of how Satan himself is, he could not be satisfied, not even with Heaven itself. And this is how his children are, on this earth. You have seen how enough is not enough, for plenty of people. There are ones who are loving and kind, but a number of people keep their attention to what evil people do, instead of feeding on the good example of ones who are loving and kind.

And being quiet is a dreadful thing, often enough, for worldly people, because in their quiet they are attacked by boredom and loneliness and other cruel and horrible things which can drive people to seek pleasure to try to feel relief. But with God, being quiet is safe > in His love there is His own almighty power to drive out fear and other cruel and dominating things. But because of how people are, they miss out on this.

it concerns me greatly that if the Christian God exists, that so few are being saved and so many more are being cast aside. Why is this so?
Because of how humans are, in sin, people do not experience God who is personal and all-loving . . . which they are not. Sin is like being covered with sewage; if you don't get the sewage cleaned off, anywhere you go will smell terrible; it was like this, for Satan in Heaven > he could smell his own stink of pride, but blamed Heaven.

Don't blame God.
 
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talitha

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What you need to grasp, Gumph, is that Christianity is not at its core a system of beliefs. It's not a thing of the head at all but of the heart. At some point we surrender to the One who is allowing us to wrestle with Him, and we allow Him to love us. What I found was that as I surrendered to Him, my beliefs came into line more and more with the Bible without my even realizing what was happening. Opinions I had held like shields against God simply disintegrated when my attitude changed. If you don't want to believe, there is nothing anyone can do, and God will not violate that boundary because it's truly all you have. If you want to believe - if you want Him - there is nothing that will stand in His way in your life because He wants relationship with each and every one of us silly humans. :)
 
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Albion

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It simply appears to me that the number of people who "find God" (The Christian version) appears to be much smaller than the group who does not find him or even travel the path of finding him.
Smaller...almost certainly. MUCH smaller...I don't know how we'd know. There are people, Christians, here on CF who insist that everyone will be saved through Christ, even if they have no commitment to him. And most of the rest of them would tell you that we observers have no way of knowing with absolute certainty who is a committed believer and who is only a formal follower. Good theology says that this is known only to God.

In sum, then, the "elitist" claim seems to me to be a criticism of a concept about sincerity being important, rather than a distinctive of the religion. And when you think about it, almost every other religion could be said to be "elitist" if Christianity is to be labeled as such, for I know of none that thinks merely calling oneself an adherent means much if you haven't changed anything else about yourself.

In addition he only seems to make himself apparent to some people and not others. Does that perhaps better help explain my claim or rather query?
It's helpful, but the first thing that comes to mind is that one of the most popular Bible verses tells us that God would have all to be saved, so...?

What I have difficulty in doing is spending years of my life studying and trying to understand the meanings in a book.
But now you are talking about being an expert, not a disciple. Read John 3: 16 and you have the gist of the religion, almost any Christian would tell you. It could be argued that Christianity is, in fact, easier to get into than any other of the world religions. While it's true that a personal commitment to God is critical--and this is not the case with some other faiths--it's also true that the simplest people have been the most famous members of the church and we always say that what's in one's heart is what Jesus taught and we affirm.

Elitist does imply that a door is closed on others. I accept again that the word was probably a poor choice on my side. I did not mean to imply that Christians prevent others from joining their religion - its more likely exactly the opposite. Perhaps I should rather ask, why is there such a great failure rate?
But no one knows what the failure rate is.

I would be most interested in how you come to the conclusion that most people on this planet find (The Christian) God. Are you possibly implying that any of the religions and their Gods are acceptable?
I don't remember saying that, so maybe you should refresh my memory before I comment further.
 
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