Is "Belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.

Do you believe that "belief" is a choice?


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throughfiierytrial

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I did not say that either. I said that God specifically chose the Hebrew people and that it was only the Hebrew priesthood that was able to temporarily attone for sin through sacrifice.

However, God always had sheep from another sheep pen unknown to the Israelites...see John 10:16.
The fact that Israel was chosen due to no good of their own shows God's sovereign election.
Also, you mentioned Job...consider that in that example though God gave or had to authorize Satan to persecute Job.
Consider the words of Romans 9:6-24...it's all God's sovereign will.

I am not aware of your full discourse but just thought I'd comment on some of what I've contemplated on the subject for many years.

God wants all men to be saved, yes, we have that spelled out for us in black and white in Scriptures. However, we have the other Scriptures speaking of the foreknowledge of God...Paul speaks of himself as being set apart from his mother's womb as does King David and Romans speaks of being foreknown and predestined. Jesus tells the disciples that they did not choose Him, but that He chose them...the kings were anointed by God's commands with prophets as a go-between.
This then tells us there is an unknown area to us about all this choosing and predestination. There must be something that makes it all "fair"...like the way God set the system up, how He made us and then too, He did put His laws in our hearts...all of ours.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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However, God always had sheep from another sheep pen unknown to the Israelites...see John 10:16.
The fact that Israel was chosen due to no good of their own shows God's sovereign election.
Also, you mentioned Job...consider that in that example though God gave or had to authorize Satan to persecute Job.
Consider the words of Romans 9:6-24...it's all God's sovereign will.

I am not aware of your full discourse but just thought I'd comment on some of what I've contemplated on the subject for many years.

God wants all men to be saved, yes, we have that spelled out for us in black and white in Scriptures. However, we have the other Scriptures speaking of the foreknowledge of God...Paul speaks of himself as being set apart from his mother's womb as does King David and Romans speaks of being foreknown and predestined. Jesus tells the disciples that they did not choose Him, but that He chose them...the kings were anointed by God's commands with prophets as a go-between.
This then tells us there is an unknown area to us about all this choosing and predestination. There must be something that makes it all "fair"...like the way God set the system up, how He made us and then too, He did put His laws in our hearts...all of ours.u mentioned Job...consider that in that example though God gave or had to authorize Satan to persecute Job.
Consider the words of Romans 9:6-24...it's all God's sovereign will.

I am not aware of your full discourse but just thought I'd comment on some of what I've contemplated on the subject for many years.

God wants all men to be saved, yes, we have that spelled out for us in black and white in Scriptures. However, we have the other Scriptures speaking of the foreknowledge of God...Paul speaks of himself as being set apart from his mother's womb as does King David and Romans speaks of being foreknown and predestined. Jesus tells the disciples that they did not choose Him, but that He chose them...the kings were anointed by God's commands with prophets as a go-between.
This then tells us there is an unknown area to us about all this choosing and predestination. There must be something that makes it all "fair"...like the way God set the system up, how He made us and then too, He did put His laws in our hearts...all of ours.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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However, God always had sheep from another sheep pen unknown to the Israelites...see John 10:16.
The fact that Israel was chosen due to no good of their own shows God's sovereign election.


God wants all men to be saved, yes, we have that spelled out for us in black and white in Scriptures. However, we have the other Scriptures speaking of the foreknowledge of God...Paul speaks of himself as being set apart from his mother's womb as does King David and Romans speaks of being foreknown and predestined. Jesus tells the disciples that they did not choose Him, but that He chose them...the kings were anointed by God's commands with prophets as a go-between.
This then tells us there is an unknown area to us about all this choosing and predestination. There must be something that makes it all "fair"...like the way God set the system up, how He made us and then too, He did put His laws in our hearts...all of ours.
Same way with Jeremiah. How awsome!

Jeremiah 1:
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
6 Then I said, "Alas, Lord GOD! Behold, I do not know how to speak, Because I am a youth."…


http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#3

Can you really believe that is the plan by which the all-wise, all-merciful, loving God is working out His purpose here on earth? WHAT IS THE TRUTH?


Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6, gives the answer! "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."

This text is one of rare beauty.
It is indeed like a precious diamond, the effulgence of whose radiance dazzles the mind. It is a drop of pure distilled essence, whose fragrance fills the rooms of the heart. It is a joy forevermore and a challenge to everyone who reads it with an understanding heart. It should be engraved upon the heart of every saint of God. There is so much depth to that text that I am afraid that we often do not even perceive it. It is like a beautiful sky of deep rich blue and one cannot even begin to grasp the vast depth above us. So it is with this passage!.....................


With what new and wonderful significance does the proclamation of Jesus Christ now echo through the corridors of our spirits as we hear the impelling words sound from His lips, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW A-L-L M-E-N UNTO ME" (Jn. 12:32). This speaks not of Christ being lifted up in our daily living, or in praise, or by preaching, but upon the cross of Calvary, dying for the sins of the world. The verse following the one quoted above makes this very clear: "And this He said, signifying what death He should die." Again, "... as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" (Jn. 3:14).....................................

Whenever there is introduced into any revelation this "I WILL" of God, then you immediately erase the will of man, the self-efforts of man to fulfill His will, and are brought face to face with the sovereignty of the GRACE of God.
In the face of the sovereignty of God's purpose all of man's hostility toward or unbelief regarding what God says He will do is as nothing, for whenever God decrees "I WILL do it," all of man's unbelief cannot deter the sovereign operation of HIS GRACE.




.
 
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But I do not believe that God does that. Chooses to make us believe the gospel.

The first paragraph in my post # 97 (page 5 of this thread on my computer), responding to a similar earlier post of yours, offers among other things a string of Scripture passages that suggest saving faith in a person is itself a gift of God, an act of divine grace (again esp. Phil. 1:29, Heb, 12:2, 1 Pet. 1:21, 2 Pet. 2:1, Acts 3:16, 13:48, 18:27 [& cf. Acts 5:31, 11:18 & 2 Tim. 2:25]). Should not such evidence receive at least some attempts at refutation before claiming that God does not choose "to make us believe the gospel" even if at some point in the process also, coming to Christ involves willingness on the part of the believer (even for Paul, converted in surprise on the road to Damascus from an initially unwilling--Christ persecuting--stance)? This Scripture list aside, Albion may in part be relying on other passages such as those concerning divine sovereignty over salvation or over all things, etc., which imply sovereignty over saving faith in some causal way (possibly e.g., Matt. 1:21, John 6:37, 39, Eph. 1:11, Col. 1:16, Rom. 8:28-30, 11:36, Rev. 13:8).
 
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ToBeLoved

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However, God always had sheep from another sheep pen unknown to the Israelites...see John 10:16.
The fact that Israel was chosen due to no good of their own shows God's sovereign election.
I appreciate what you have added to the conversation, but it still does not show why God chose only the Hebrews and that only the Hebrews had priests which were able to please God through temporary atonement for sin.

Also, I believe the John 10:16 verse is talkinig about the gentiles when after Christ death forgiveness was opened up to all, both Jew and Genrtile.
 
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ToBeLoved

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The first paragraph in my post # 97 (page 5 of this thread on my computer), responding to a similar earlier post of yours, offers among other things a string of Scripture passages that suggest saving faith in a person is itself a gift of God, an act of divine grace (again esp. Phil. 1:29, Heb, 12:2, 1 Pet. 1:21, 2 Pet. 2:1, Acts 3:16, 13:48, 18:27 [& cf. Acts 5:31, 11:18 & 2 Tim. 2:25]). Should not such evidence receive at least some attempts at refutation before claiming that God does not choose "to make us believe the gospel" even if at some point in the process also, coming to Christ involves willingness on the part of the believer (even for Paul, converted in surprise on the road to Damascus from an initially unwilling--Christ persecuting--stance)? This Scripture list aside, Albion may in part be relying on other passages such as those concerning divine sovereignty over salvation or over all things, etc., which imply sovereignty over saving faith in some causal way (possibly e.g., Matt. 1:21, John 6:37, 39, Eph. 1:11, Col. 1:16, Rom. 8:28-30, 11:36, Rev. 13:8).
What I am doing is asking some of the questions to these folks that brought me to my own beliefs.

Some act like one side is cut and dry true or that the other side is. BUt in truth there is a lot of things that neither side can explain.

So I would like them to answer some of these questions Biblically so I can see how they come to their belief.
 
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That was a point someone else made. I was asking them a similiar question waiting for their answer. They were saying that if predestination were not true, that God would not be exercising authority over the earth.

My point to them was that when God came to earth as Jesus, He did not come exercising great authority. For the first 30 years of Jesus life we only know about when He was 12 years old and got lost in the synogague. Then when He is 30 yo, His minstry begins after getting baptised by John the Baptist.

I would like to know the same thing.

I accept your above claim as to your POV, though so far as I can see there are layers of confusion in the conversation behind it and I see little clue in your previous post that you use another's voice in claiming "God was not exercising His authority over mankind letting them kill His Son"; I am not in a position to unravel the Gordian knot in such a way as to reach your above post independently. So moving on ...
 
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ToBeLoved

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I accept your above claim as to your POV, though so far as I can see there are layers of confusion in the conversation behind it and I see little clue in your previous post that you use another's voice in claiming "God was not exercising His authority over mankind letting them kill His Son"; I am not in a position to unravel the Gordian knot in such a way as to reach your above post independently. So moving on ...
Well let me point it out to you then. I can lead you directly to the water.

The conversation starts in post #103 and continues through post #113, if you were really interested.

No unraveling of any Gordian knot needed, just reading the posts.
 
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What I am doing is asking some of the questions to these folks that brought me to my own beliefs.

Some act like one side is cut and dry true or that the other side is. BUt in truth there is a lot of things that neither side can explain.

So I would like them to answer some of these questions Biblically so I can see how they come to their belief.

I agree that all systematic theological models concerning salvation and divine sovereignty/human responsibility issues (in the history of the church so far as I know) involve weighing of probable inferences as well as, frankly and necessarily, that which is inexplicable. And I agree that asking questions is naturally part of the process. Articulation and friendly banter even on this thread can constitute part of that process for any or all of us.

I also think you agree that answering these questions Biblically helps us see each other's point of view and form our own view. I think the Bible also helps us locate where the mysteries ought to lie, and where God has revealed something to us. The place of the Bible as the inspired word of God for the church, in NT portion the closest-to-the-origin dominical and apostolic record, is why I have again listed Scripture verses which I think suggest or substantiate the idea that saving faith is a gift and grace of God in the believer (whatever else it may be) contrary to your claims. And I added a few other (among more) passages that suggest relevant implications.

Would it not follow your own principles to seek to refute my claim about what these Scriptures say or relevantly imply using these same Scripture verses (P.S. 2 Pet. 2:1 is a wrong reference--sorry)? Or if on balance these Scriptures (including the added ones plus Eph. 2:8-9 & Rom. 12:3) refute your claim as I believe they adequately do (and I'm not saying contrary argument cannot be made), would it not be in your best interest to change your belief on the question?

So far as I understand them, these Scriptures imply (borrowing with reservation from your language) that God does choose to make people believe the gospel even if, as I wrote also, believers at some point or other also believe the gospel willingly (as God also invites and commands them/us to do).

Avoidance of these Scriptures at some point would seem a failure to integrate implications from these Scriptures into one's systematic theological model and into one's beliefs.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I agree that all systematic theological models concerning salvation and divine sovereignty/human responsibility issues (in the history of the church so far as I know) involve weighing of probable inferences as well as, frankly and necessarily, that which is inexplicable. And I agree that asking questions is naturally part of the process. Articulation and friendly banter even on this thread can constitute part of that process for any or all of us.

I also think you agree that answering these questions Biblically helps us see each other's point of view and form our own view. I think the Bible also helps us locate where the mysteries ought to lie, and where God has revealed something to us. The place of the Bible as the inspired word of God for the church, in NT portion the closest-to-the-origin dominical and apostolic record, is why I have again listed Scripture verses which I think suggest or substantiate the idea that saving faith is a gift and grace of God in the believer (whatever else it may be) contrary to your claims. And I added a few other (among more) passages that suggest relevant implications.

Would it not follow your own principles to seek to refute my claim about what these Scriptures say or relevantly imply using these same Scripture verses (P.S. 2 Pet. 2:1 is a wrong reference--sorry)? Or if on balance these Scriptures (including the added ones plus Eph. 2:8-9 & Rom. 12:3) refute your claim as I believe they adequately do (and I'm not saying contrary argument cannot be made), would it not be in your best interest to change your belief on the question?

So far as I understand them, these Scriptures imply (borrowing with reservation from your language) that God does choose to make people believe the gospel even if, as I wrote also, believers at some point or other also believe the gospel willingly (as God also invites and commands them/us to do).

Avoidance of these Scriptures at some point would seem a failure to integrate implications from these Scriptures into one's systematic theological model and into one's beliefs.
Well I just updated the post above with the post numbers if you care to read it.

I think I ask some very good questions.
 
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Emmy

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Dear jason_delisle. Yes, belief is a choice, and if we follow the 2 Commandments which Jesus gives us
in Matthew 22: 35-40: we will follow Jesus back to our Heavenly Father. The first and great Commandment is:
"Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Verse 40 tells us: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive," we ask God for Love and Joy, then we thank God and we change from being selfish and unloving to loving and caring, be kind and always use friendly language.
God sees our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. We keep asking for Love and Joy, thank God and be the sons and daughters which God wants us to be.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," change our selfish wishes and wants, and start being loving and caring, loving men and women which God wants us to be. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and
Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. We might stumble and forget at times, but then
we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. A Christian`s weapon is Love and Compassion, with love we can always be victorious. God is Love, and God will not force us, God wants our love and kindness and forgiveness
always ready to be shared. Satan and all his followers will run away from all love and compassion.
I say this with love, Jason_delisle. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Emmy

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Dear jasondelisle. To belief is our wish or will, no-one can us force to believe something which does not make sense,
we either believe or we do not believe. As for Christianity, it makes much sense and is capable of changing lives completely. Jesus Himself, tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: love our neighbour as we love ourselves."
In verse 40 we read: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." What could be more easily understood? In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive," we simply ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with all around us. God will see our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. By being kind and friendly, we show Jesus that we are ready to follow Him, and treat others as we would like to be treated. Love is very catching, and we will find that people will treat us the same as we treat people. Show our Heavenly Father, that we are ready to treat others as we like to be treated, we show God that we are ready to follow our Saviour al the way. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us,
and carry on loving and caring. Don`t forget, to love and care is catching, and a smile will work wonders.
Trust God and follow Jesus. I say this with love, jasondelisle. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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98cwitr

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is it acceptable to present theories? Before i do, i must know,, Because this is theory and not fact, and this is a Christian forum,

If you can back them up with Scripture :)
 
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Dear jasondelisle. To belief is our wish or will, no-one can us force to believe something which does not make sense,
we either believe or we do not believe. As for Christianity, it makes much sense and is capable of changing lives completely. Jesus Himself, tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: love our neighbour as we love ourselves."
In verse 40 we read: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." What could be more easily understood? In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive," we simply ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with all around us. God will see our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. By being kind and friendly, we show Jesus that we are ready to follow Him, and treat others as we would like to be treated. Love is very catching, and we will find that people will treat us the same as we treat people. Show our Heavenly Father, that we are ready to treat others as we like to be treated, we show God that we are ready to follow our Saviour al the way. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us,
and carry on loving and caring. Don`t forget, to love and care is catching, and a smile will work wonders.
Trust God and follow Jesus. I say this with love, jasondelisle. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
Can you simply choose not to believe in God? Try it right now. How about this, can you honestly believe at this very moment that the electronic device you are using to read this post does not exist? Try it.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 
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Emmy

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Dear Jason_delisle. To believe is to follow. I believe Jesus when He tells me in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all the soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it:
love thy neighbour as thyself." Verse 40 tells us : On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Love God and love thy neighbour, is what God wants from us. (neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters.
The Bible tells us: "Repent and Love God and thy neighbour," stop being selfish and unloving, and be loving and forgiving to God and your neighbour. God sees our loving efforts, and God will approve and Bless us.
Believe is a choice, God will not force us in any way at all. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
We keep asking and receiving, ( Matthew 7: 7-10:) then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour.
We stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring, and be kind and give a happy smile. Love is very catching, and we will find that people will treat us the same way as we are treating people. Why not try and love this imperfect world? Love will ALWAYS be victorious. I say this with love, delisle.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Jason_delisle. Yes, belief is a choice, we either believe or we don`t. God is Love, and God loves us, we know that God loves us, and God will always Love us. If we want to go through life, it is there for us. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive," we keep asking for Love and Joy, and God`s Love is always with us. The great difference is always: will God help me and guide me? God will NEVER force us, we have to tell God that we love God and will He please guide us? God`s answer is not No, but always YES.
The Bible tells us: "Repent and be Born Again," give up our selfish wishes and wants, and start loving and caring, be kind and always friendly. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. The Holy Spirit will always help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way:
JESUS IS THE WAY. We believe our Heavenly Father, and God will always protect us. We ask God and we believe God,
live the life which God has for us. I say this with love, Jason. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Norbert L

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Greeting everyone,

I just wanted to start off by saying that the purpose of this thread is not to try to influence your beliefs or lack of belief but have a conversation about belief in general and how many Christians take belief for granted. Many Christians emphasize free will and that we can use this free will to freely choose to believe or not to believe in God. But is “belief” really a choice and can we truly use this “free will” to choose to believe or not to believe? I can’t say that I agree. I don’t think anyone can simply choose to believe anything….they either believe or not believe something. Here is an example. If I told you that in order to be saved you had to believe the sky was pink and purple polka dotted. You may look me in the face and tell me “yes, I believe it”. Deep down, you truly want to believe it because you want to be saved. But can you really believe it? Let us look at what the bible says about “belief” and salvation.

John 14:12-14 ESV

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.


John 20:29 ESV

Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


John 3:16 ESV

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


Romans 10:9-10 ESV

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

So if belief is not a choice, the simple act of believing in Jesus is really not that simple. So how can a Christian truly convince and unbeliever to believe? Please cast your vote in the poll. Thank you.
So how do you see Mark 9:23-24 in your line of thought? When it comes to believing a person can believe something yet at the same time have a measure of unbelief.
 
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