Liberate said:
This is the problem I find with many westernized muslims, the quick dismissal
for authority to interprete the quran and sunnah as they personally see fit,
when islam has not given them the authority to do this. Who decides what is an
authentic hadith? You? If you are the one dismissing what is authentic or not,
how do you reconcile your earlier statement that you do not water down islam?
For example:
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover
his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of
Israel hurt him by saying, 'He covers his body in this way only because of some
defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other
defect.' Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day
while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone
and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his
clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses
picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, 'O stone!
Give me my garment!' Till he reached a group of Bani Israel who saw him naked
then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and Allah cleared him of
what they had accused him of. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his
garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah,
the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. THIS
IS WAS WHAT ALLAH REFERS TO IN HIS SAYING:-- "O you who believe!
Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that
which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah's Sight." (33.69)
Liberate said:
Read the above sahih(authentic) hadith, far from contradicting the quran,
it
states this is the reason for sura 33:69, but what are you to do
with the above
hadith? Do you claim it contradicts the quran to save face, or do you reject it
because of the ridiculous story of a stone running away with someone's clothes
and having the sensory neurones to take a beating. If you reject it on whose
authority do you reject it? Have you studied under the tutelage of a mufti for
several years to deem what is authentic and unathentic? I am curious to your
response?
UmmIsa said:
Yes, I do believe it and accept it. Why because Allaah & His Messenger said so and because the hadeeth has been authenticated.
It becomes sad indeed, when you are prepared to believe any and everything to the point of overriding commonsense. Do you also believe that flies have a poison on one wing, and the anti-dote to the poison on the other wing; and dipping
a bacteria ridden housefly who has fallen in your soup, will eradicate the alledged poison and antidote to the poison on the flies wings? After all this is substantiated in a sahih(authentic) Bukhari hadith:
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
Do you also believe women are deficient in intelligence because a sahih(authentic)Bukahri hadith says so:
Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."
Do you also believe women cannot pray or fast during her period, afterall it is recorded in a sahih(authentic) Bukhari hadith:
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha
or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as
I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)."
They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse
frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more
deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could
be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is
deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of
two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He
said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman
can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the
affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Have you ever wondered why it is blood, without it life would not exist,
would somehow nullify a woman's prayer to her Creator, simply because of something He made part of her nature?
UmmIsa said:
And I know you do not have the nerve to talk about believing in something
ridiculous when you believe that God taransformed himself to be born by a woman
and lived as a man who ate, slept, urinated, and defecated like everyone else.
I do not understand why it is muslims are obsessed that it is somehow sinful to defecate and urinate, this goes back to what God made as part of the nature of man, all this shows is islamic perceptions of righteousness is purely superficial, it is all about keeping up appearances, so if you are clean, maybe you are holy.
Islam equally believes in the virgin birth, and that Jesus is the "
Word of God" if you make mockery of it, you make mockery of your own beliefs.
UmmIsa said:
Someone who is God, yet a son, yet part divine, yet perfect (yet he was human)
but still divine, and then died??? Who was running the universe when he died
since hes god? Or is he the son? Or is he god when you can't explain how he
could be the son?
Let us take an example; that you made a tape recording of your voice,
would a court of law accept that tape recording as if you were there yourself making those same comments? Well this is how christianity views Jesus, i.e the Word of God,
what God would have said if He was right here in our midst. The vessel i.e the tape recoder is simply the human body, but the Word is from God, a concept islam agrees with.
Islam also has a similar concept. Your religion states that the quran was created before the foundation of the earth, echoing for all eternity, let me ask you a simple question,
if the quran is uncreated and eternal with God before the creation of the earth, explain to me how it is not divine? What was the relationship between this
uncreated, and
eternal attribute of allah and the empirical strata
while Zaid, Uthmman, Abu Bakr, the Dajjal edited and amended the quran right up to the 10th century? Was the
uncreated and
eternal quran keeping up with these amendments?
UmmIsa said:
At least my story is backed by the Creator...what about
yours??
How is your story backed up?
Which story do you mean?
The one with a stone running away with Moses's clothes?
or the theology of the religion in general?
The albatross around islam's neck not even considering that the message is to many extent inhumane, to the point of killing and fighting those who do not believe,
but there is no continuation with the God of christianity nor Judaism, whoever compiled the quran was desperate for, because without that continuity
which islam does not have in theology no etymology, you do not worship the same God.
Liberate said:
Can you show me anywhere of an example in the quran where allah showed mercy,
and the nature of that mercy?
UmmIsa said:
Most importantly is His names that begins every soorah (except one), ar-Rahmaan & ar-Raheem. Both entails His mercy
This is not a practical demonstration of allah's mercy, just saying a name contains the meanings of mercy really means nothing, several times in the quran where it has a provocative message, such as urging jihad to be fought against unbelievers and to be harsh with them, because, because...allah is merciful, the concept does not bear with the actual command.
UmmIsa said:
"And (remember) Ayoob (Job), when he cried to his Lord: "Verily, distress has
seized me, and You are the Most Merciful of all those who show mercy. So We
answered his call, and We removed the distress that was on him, and We restored
his family to him (that he had lost), and the like thereof along with them, as a
mercy from Ourselves and a Reminder for all who worship Us." [21:83,84] I'm sure
you know this story since its in the Bible as well.
This is a denial of the antecedent of what the previous revelations say, and the fallacy of slothful induction, the allah of the quran is not the same as the God of the bible, there is no evidence allah is the one showing mercy here, this is plagiarized biblical material.
UmmIsa said:
(This is) a mention of the mercy of your Lord to His slave Zakariyyah
(Zachariah)." [19:2] This is when Zakariyyah prayed to Allaah to send him
someone who would take his place (progeny) after his death.
Again you cannot use this as this is plagiarized biblical material,
there is no evidence that allah of the quran is the same as the God of the bible, the original (bible) gives the complete context, Zechariah was not praying for someone to take over after his death, but was praying for his wife to have a child.
UmmIsa said:
"Say: 'O 'Ibaadee (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by
committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the mercy of Allaah, verily
Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful'. [39:53] I
love this verse! This reminds the believers that we should never ever give up
and remember that Allaah is always there, waiting to forgive us.
The serious problem is you cannot find out if this is true until the afterlife, how do you know allah is indeed merciful? if allah is not the God of the bible, what makes you so sure allah has the power to forgive anything?
UmmIsa said:
"And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His mercy (rain), and We send down pure water from the sky" [25:48] This is self explanatory; without rain everything would die, so that is a needed mercy and something we should thank Allaah for.
Surely you realise you are scraping the barrel here, mercy as rain? In that case sunshine, clear weather might as well be a mercy. As expected you cannot show me anything in the quran that shows evidence of allah's mercy, other than plagiarised biblical stories, when the overwhelming evidence is allah of the quran and the God of the bible are not the same.
Liberate said:
UmmIsa said:
Yes, all because of honey! I see your a big conspiracy theorist aren't you? *smile*
This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a logical explanation of what the earliest hadith from Bukhari says, and it is much more rational than the later one from Muslim.
Liberate said:
...
(O Ibn Al-Khattab! Do you have any doubt These people have been given rewards of
their good deeds in this world only.) I asked the Prophet , `Please beg Allah's
forgiveness for me, O Allah's Messenger.' The Prophet swore that
he would not go
to his wives for one month, because of his severe anger towards them
[ RIGHT
HERE is where your tafsir further insults the intelligence of it's readers and
deviates from the hadith, at this stage in the hadith this is what the hadith
says:"Bukhari vol 3 648 "...The Prophet
did not go to his wives because of
the secret which Hafsa had disclosed to 'Aisha, and he said that he would not go
to his wives for one month as he was angry with them when Allah admonished him
(for his oath that he would not approach Maria..."
if they had bothered to
include this part of the hadith it would have opened a can of worms the reader
would have known they were being taken for a ride, the prophet was angry because
Hafsa had told Aisha he slept with Hafsa's maid Maria/Mariyah/Mariah
]
His wives had confronted him about it he had threatened them with
divorce, his
followers glossed over it and fabricated elaborate hadiths about honey and
citrus fruits to cover the obvious imperfection in the prophet's
character.