Irreducible Complexity At The China Shop

The Cadet

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Child: "Please demonstrate that gravity applies."
Mother: *Drops a pen she was holding in her purse* "There you go. Gravity applies."
Child: "Okay, but what about that porcelain tea kettle there, the one labeled 'human eye'? Does gravity apply to that?"
Mother: "It's reasonable to assume that gravity does in fact apply universally due to the information we've gathered thus far."
Child: "I don't care. Prove that gravity applies to that kettle."
Mother: *sighs* "Fine..."

She then buys the kettle and drops it. It shatters.

Mother: "See? Gravity applies to that vase. Now can we please stop? In every observed instance, gravity is known to apply."
Child: "Well... What about that plate, the one labeled 'bacterial flagellum'? Does gravity apply to that?"

She buys the plate and drops it. It shatters.

Mother: "Are we done here yet?"
Child: "How about that one, that big fancy vase, labeled 'sensing mechanisms'? Does gravity apply to that?"

...At what point would you tell the child, who we'll name "Michael B." for the purposes of this thought experiment, "We're not testing this any more! It's expensive and pointless - it obviously doesn't convince you no matter how many times we do it and you can just pick literally any other object we haven't broken yet!"?
 

Jan Volkes

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It's an unwillingness to learn in case by learning it forces us to change our minds, for some it would be unthinkable.

The application of reason is normally the basis for all beliefs although it's quite common for people to believe things when it's totally unreasonable to believe them, by suspending reason it allows some people to believe the most unreasonable things,
not everyone has this ability but some can be trained to do it while others are completely unable to do it no matter what.
 
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AV1611VET

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Child: "Well... What about that plate, the one labeled 'bacterial flagellum'? Does gravity apply to that?"
That's some child, if he can read "bacterial flagellum."

Makes you wonder what his hang-up is about gravity?
 
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AV1611VET

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It's an unwillingness to learn in case by learning it forces us to change our minds, for some it would be unthinkable.
I couldn't disagree more.

He can read "bacterial flagellum" with no problem.

But just because someone can read well, doesn't mean they are obligated to know what it is they're reading; or, in the case of the OP, understand gravity.

I once knew a girl who was mentally ill, but she could multiply three-digit numbers by three-digit numbers with ease in her head.
 
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The Cadet

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It's illustrative of a factor of science that is virtually never applied to evolution by creationists. Evolution is the model. Given how well it has established itself, we use it as a basis for claims, much in the same way we assume that gravity applies relatively uniformly throughout the universe. When someone keeps on asking, "demonstrate evolution applies here" "demonstrate evolution applies there", they miss much of the key utility of the theory.
 
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Oncedeceived

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It's illustrative of a factor of science that is virtually never applied to evolution by creationists. Evolution is the model. Given how well it has established itself, we use it as a basis for claims, much in the same way we assume that gravity applies relatively uniformly throughout the universe. When someone keeps on asking, "demonstrate evolution applies here" "demonstrate evolution applies there", they miss much of the key utility of the theory.
I don't care how much evolution has established itself. You can't claim it produces something without evidence to support it. Evolution is not an all powerful god that can do anything. There are set laws of physics, there are mechanisms that are adhered to and there is selection which is only for advantages at the time and not for the future. Evolution doesn't apply to the entire universe in the way that gravity does, and like I said before we don't even understand Gravity and it unique attributes.
 
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twob4me

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did a small clean up to remove some mild Flaming. Please keep your replies to the CONTENT of the post not the poster personally. Also when you reply please keep from making Goading remarks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
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Jan Volkes

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It's an unwillingness to learn in case by learning it forces us to change our minds, for some it would be unthinkable.
I couldn't disagree more.
Does that mean if you learned something new you would be willing to change your mind? are you sure after all these years?
 
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The Cadet

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I don't care how much evolution has established itself. You can't claim it produces something without evidence to support it.

Right. Just like we can't claim that any porcelain object will break if we drop it without evidence to support it. Evidence that can only come by dropping it. Of course, given everything else we know, it's probably a pretty fair assumption that the vase is going to shatter, just like everything else. What's not a fair assumption is that it will, for some reason, just float in midair due to some magical pixie.

Again, this is the key point. Evolution is the model. Just like in physics, relativity is the model. Based on what we already know, we apply relativity - never mind that the problem of induction prevents us from ever proving it; it turns out that our application of it tends to be pretty much completely justified by its predictive power. That's the parallel here.

Evolution doesn't apply to the entire universe in the way that gravity does

Evolution is an inherent quality of life, the same way "has 4 sides" is an inherent quality of a square. This is a result of the imperfect copy mechanisms, descent with modification, and natural selection being universal to life on earth.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Right. Just like we can't claim that any porcelain object will break if we drop it without evidence to support it. Evidence that can only come by dropping it. Of course, given everything else we know, it's probably a pretty fair assumption that the vase is going to shatter, just like everything else. What's not a fair assumption is that it will, for some reason, just float in midair due to some magical pixie.

Just as we know that Gravity works, how it affects objects and the like; we know that evolution has its mechanisms and how it affects the genetic structure of life. We know for instance that we are not going to go outside and simply pop up into the sky from a lack of gravity for a moment because that doesn't happen. We know this from experience because we do not know how Gravity actually works, what mechanisms are at play or much really about it. However, we do know what it does and the same holds true of evolution. We know the way it works however and what mechanism are at play. We can determine what evolution does and does not do. We know that there are certain requirements for evolution to work. Knowing what we do know, we know there has to be evidence working within this framework to produce certain things in organisms. We should working on our knowledge of evolution be able to specifically show how evolution was capable of some element in living forms. That is the knowledge we have, one in which is not an all powerful entity that has the power to do whatever it wants. Evolution happens, we know it happens, we know the mechanisms that make it happen and when we claim that evolution has done something it is incumbent on those making the claim to support it with evidence using this framework. That is not being done. Hand waving that evolution like gravity is real does not provide evidence of how the apparent design with a purpose in living things has been produced by evolution in this framework.

Again, this is the key point. Evolution is the model. Just like in physics, relativity is the model. Based on what we already know, we apply relativity - never mind that the problem of induction prevents us from ever proving it; it turns out that our application of it tends to be pretty much completely justified by its predictive power. That's the parallel here.

Evolution is an inherent quality of life, the same way "has 4 sides" is an inherent quality of a square. This is a result of the imperfect copy mechanisms, descent with modification, and natural selection being universal to life on earth.

Evolution happens so evolution explains everything without having to provide evidence is not the model of science. Science demands evidence to support premises made and the premise that evolution produced the design with purpose in living things must be shown by evidence and that has not been provided. It is this model this framework that evolution is limited to and know to work. It should be shown using this framework how evolution produced this design with a purpose when it is a mindless purposeless process with no goals and is un-directed.
 
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Jan Volkes

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Oncedeceived

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Perhaps you should go while you're on holiday? every state has at least a few.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_history_museums_in_the_United_States
Perhaps you should go while you're on holiday? every state has at least a few.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_history_museums_in_the_United_States
Yes, I've been to a few. I just realized you said a natural history museum. I was thinking the Smithsonian when I read your post.
 
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The Cadet

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we know that evolution has its mechanisms and how it affects the genetic structure of life. We know for instance that we are not going to go outside and simply pop up into the sky from a lack of gravity for a moment because that doesn't happen. We know this from experience because we do not know how Gravity actually works, what mechanisms are at play or much really about it. However, we do know what it does and the same holds true of evolution.

Right.

We know that life evolves. We know that all life forms with DNA (so, to our knowledge, all life forms) evolve.
We know that evolution produces phenomenally complex systems. Bacterial chemotaxis, the human eye, multicellularity, et cetera.
We know of no other mechanism for the production of complex biological systems.


We should working on our knowledge of evolution be able to specifically show how evolution was capable of some element in living forms.

And we do. Again, and again, and again. It's not to say that, should a vase start floating in midair, the child would be wrong to shoot his mother a pointed glance. It's just we never find that. But ID creationists insist that if we just keep dropping things, sooner or later something will float. They need to do better than that. They need to find something which they can demonstrate could not have evolved.

Evolution happens, we know it happens, we know the mechanisms that make it happen and when we claim that evolution has done something it is incumbent on those making the claim to support it with evidence using this framework.

Ehhh... Two things. Firstly, you seem to misunderstand is what counts as evidence. You keep rejecting things like intermediate stages in nature and nested hierarchies, when in fact these are very strong evidence of evolution. Secondly, when dealing with biological systems, evolution is the paradigm. When you drop something, you don't have to spend a whole lot of time proving that the force pulling it to the ground is gravity. Because gravity is the paradigm in that domain. In the case of biology, it's even worse! At least in physics, we know of other forces that could theoretically attract matter, like magnetism. In biology, there is nothing else there. It's essentially evolution or "some completely unknown unestablished mechanism" (in this case, you want to insert "design", which is unproven and unprovable).
 
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Jan Volkes

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Yes, I've been to a few. I just realized you said a natural history museum. I was thinking the Smithsonian when I read your post.
So what did you think of them? did they conflict with what you wanted to believe?
 
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DogmaHunter

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I don't care how much evolution has established itself.

Yes, we are all aware of how you don't care how established a certain scientific theory is... You only care about it agreeing to your a priori beliefs.


You can't claim it produces something without evidence to support it.

It's a good thing then, that nobody does that. Nobody interesting anyway.

Evolution is not an all powerful god that can do anything.

Nobody says it is. No matter what creationists say.


There are set laws of physics, there are mechanisms that are adhered to and there is selection which is only for advantages at the time and not for the future.

Yes. And that is all that evolution requires to work.


Evolution doesn't apply to the entire universe in the way that gravity does

Indeed, it doesn't.

Instead, evolution applies to any and all systems that reproduce with variation and compete for limited resources.

Read that last sentence again, so that it can really sink in.

, and like I said before we don't even understand Gravity and it unique attributes.

Which doesn't stop us from understanding that if you jump from the empire state building without a parachute - you'll plummeth to certain death.

And it's funny because while we indeed don't have a good understanding of how gravity actually works, we have a pretty solid understanding of how evolution works.

Evolution as a theory is a LOT further ahead as opposed to gravity.
In fact, it's a lot further ahead then pretty much any other scientific theory.
 
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Jan Volkes

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Evolution as a theory is a LOT further ahead as opposed to gravity.
In fact, it's a lot further ahead then pretty much any other scientific theory.
Religion trumps facts for people desperate to believe something else.
The Heaven's Gate religious group is testament to that, 39 people committed suicide believing their souls would be transported to a spaceship trailing the Hale-Bopp comet.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Right.

We know that life evolves. We know that all life forms with DNA (so, to our knowledge, all life forms) evolve.
We know that evolution produces phenomenally complex systems. Bacterial chemotaxis, the human eye, multicellularity, et cetera.
We know of no other mechanism for the production of complex biological systems.




And we do. Again, and again, and again. It's not to say that, should a vase start floating in midair, the child would be wrong to shoot his mother a pointed glance. It's just we never find that. But ID creationists insist that if we just keep dropping things, sooner or later something will float. They need to do better than that. They need to find something which they can demonstrate could not have evolved.



Ehhh... Two things. Firstly, you seem to misunderstand is what counts as evidence. You keep rejecting things like intermediate stages in nature and nested hierarchies, when in fact these are very strong evidence of evolution. Secondly, when dealing with biological systems, evolution is the paradigm. When you drop something, you don't have to spend a whole lot of time proving that the force pulling it to the ground is gravity. Because gravity is the paradigm in that domain. In the case of biology, it's even worse! At least in physics, we know of other forces that could theoretically attract matter, like magnetism. In biology, there is nothing else there. It's essentially evolution or "some completely unknown unestablished mechanism" (in this case, you want to insert "design", which is unproven and unprovable).

While I appreciate the time and effort you applied to this post, it comes down to one point and one point alone. Evolution happens and so evolution is the explanation. That simply is not in evidence. You make claims about evolution producing
phenomenally complex systems such as Bacterial chemotaxis, the human eye, multicellularity, et cetera. when in fact none of these has any evidence of being the product of evolutionary processes and pathways. There are stories of plausibility and possibilities but there is no evidence for instance for unicellular life evolving into multicellular life, the same holds true of the human eye. We have no evidence that the eye which would have had to evolve independently numerous times actually evolving from anything simpler. We have already have evidence in the Cambrian of fully complex eyes and no precursors. Accordingly we have no precursors to the neurological pathways that had to accompany the eye. Bacterial chemotaxis depends on so many systems that have to be coordinated within the whole working process that to claim it is shown by evolutionary processes again is not explained by evolution alone. Together with the human like engineering of all the systems and forms you have cited, it must be noted that all of this can not be shown to be evolution alone due to the fact that evolution did not evolve. There was a starting point from that first UCA, that first element of non-function from which all functioning systems arise which has no evidence to support it. The processes from which you claim all arise from evolution can not arise without some beginning design to fashion the laws and physics from which evolution has the ability to work at all. Clearly it does not follow from the fact, if it is one, that living organisms could (in some significant sense of "could") have come about without more or less direct intellectual intervention, that in fact they did so. The imaginary simpler organism and tiny modifications in reproduction of yet other, simpler life forms over unimaginably long periods of time, without intervention by a rational planner who is working toward a goal, is a conclusion based on philosophy rather than actual physical evidence to support it. The conclusion better shown, based on presumption of certain processes set up but not directly guided by rational intention at each step can, under conceivable circumstances, produce surprisingly ordered results but that in no way supports the broadened concept that it produces the complexity and deliberate design observed in all living organisms from far simpler forms. IN fact, no evidence exists to support that they did so evolve. That the human eye "could have" evolved from a simpler form and must "have" because no other explanation is worthy of consideration is not evidence. The use of imagination can surely be used to show how an eye "could" evolve but in no way shows "it did" evolve. The same holds true of most complex and design like features in all living organisms. Evolution-did-it is not explanation anymore than God-did-it in the same frame. That is not to say that they could not have evolved either, but on the flip side we know that intervention of breeders shows no "sign" of that intervention in the genome of the plant or animal, structurally the intervention is not seen or observed. To say that evolution alone is the only evidence rather begs the question.

Cumulative selection can manufacture complexity while single-step selection cannot. But cumulative selection cannot work unless there is some minimal machinery of replication and replicator power, and the only machinery of replication that we know seems too complicated to have come into existence by means of anything less than many generations of cumulative selection! The circular reasoning is apparent. What blind processes do you propose to produce the type of self-reproducing entity and structured environment that will make natural selection possible?

You claim for biology "there is nothing else there" but that is literally impossible due to the fact that evolution did not evolve the processes from which it arises. The processes or origins of those processes all come under those same laws of physics and cosmic design which holds even a stronger analogy to intelligence and design; add to this the fact that human beings as intelligent agents who recognize design features from experience having the capability of recognition, analogy all products of intelligence presupposes intelligence at its origins. No where in any form does intelligence arise from non-intelligence. Never do we see true order from true disorder in our experience but from the mind.

Now Dawkins with his claim that the deliberate design with a purpose is an illusion from his imaginary treks through history with stories and could haves and might haves and plausibility doesn't shy away from the origin of all life on earth as so many like to do so on this forum. He does reflect upon the origin of life (he knows to make order from disorder it is necessary) and again gives us a story of how it "might have come about". So we have evolution being the originator of all complexity and design like appearances of living organisms being imagined by Dawkins and his attempt to provide a starting point for it all by his venture into the fantasy of abiogenesis and all the while nothing is given to support it at all. Evolution is all there is does not provide evidence that something other than evolution IS there and doesn't even support itself by evidence. Evolution happens and we see this by the genetic makeup of all living things but we do not see nor has it been ever produced to show that it produces the complexity and apparent design with a purpose in all living organisms on earth.

Finally, there is no reason to believe that intelligence the type we humans possess could possibly have arisen from a step-to-step progression from non-intelligence but should we grant that possibility we then have to conclude that our reasoning is not in accordance with truth or fact or even of actualization of experience but from chemical interaction in the brain and only what we can think do we think.
 
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