Invitation!!! Formal Debate

MarkRohfrietsch

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Hi everyone:wave:,

I would like to invite everyone who may be interested in either of these things;

  • discussing and/or debating a particular topic one on one, or
  • someone who would like to invite/challenge a particular member to debate or discuss a particular topic one-on-one,
to open a proposal thread here, Formal Debate Proposals and get the ball rolling in Formal Debate.


Any topic will do; theology, society, politics, Christian and non Christian. We keep things very free, easy and open in there; and we keep it "report free".


So, come on over, propose a topic, invite a friend or an adversary and we will be glad to set something up.

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Mark
Area Supervisor:)
 
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LoveofTruth

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Hi everyone:wave:,

I would like to invite everyone who may be interested in either of these things;

  • discussing and/or debating a particular topic one on one, or
  • someone who would like to invite/challenge a particular member to debate or discuss a particular topic one-on-one,
to open a proposal thread here, Formal Debate Proposals and get the ball rolling in Formal Debate.


Any topic will do; theology, society, politics, Christian and non Christian. We keep things very free, easy and open in there; and we keep it "report free".


So, come on over, propose a topic, invite a friend or an adversary and we will be glad to set something up.

we-want-to-hear-from-you2-e1356515451205.png



Mark
Area Supervisor:)


Ok how about the topic of no one man pastor over a church in the New testament, and how we never read even one verse that says a Pastor is to be over the other believers getting a regular salary and doing most of the ministry?
 
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daydreamergurl15

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LoveofTruth, you have to define the term for us. Are you speaking of Pastor, with it's biblical meaning of "elder" or are we speaking of a modern speech "Pastor" meaning "Preacher" in some Christian settings? A "Pastor/Elder" is given the task of overseeing the flock, while a Pastor in some circles which they mean "Preacher" should not be given that task unless they are both Elder and Preacher.

I am not engaging in a conversation about either one, just asking for qualification on which do you mean.
 
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LoveofTruth

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LoveofTruth, you have to define the term for us. Are you speaking of Pastor, with it's biblical meaning of "elder" or are we speaking of a modern speech "Pastor" meaning "Preacher" in some Christian settings? A "Pastor/Elder" is given the task of overseeing the flock, while a Pastor in some circles which they mean "Preacher" should not be given that task unless they are both Elder and Preacher.

I am not engaging in a conversation about either one, just asking for qualification on which do you mean.

LoveofTruth, you have to define the term for us. Are you speaking of Pastor, with it's biblical meaning of "elder" or are we speaking of a modern speech "Pastor" meaning "Preacher" in some Christian settings? A "Pastor/Elder" is given the task of overseeing the flock, while a Pastor in some circles which they mean "Preacher" should not be given that task unless they are both Elder and Preacher.

I am not engaging in a conversation about either one, just asking for qualification on which do you mean.


I am saying this,

No one man ministry over the body called the pastor.

A hinderance to the function of God’s order in the church, is this one man “Pastor ministry” that has dominated Christendom for a long time. This tradition of men is contrary to God’s order of plurality of ministering elders in every church and various giftings to the body of Christ. We read in Ephesians 4:11 that God gave ”gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”, and when “they had ordained them elders in every church”(Acts 14:23). In God’s order there are more giftings than just pastors, and we never read of a one man pastor over a church in the New Testament always a plurality of elders! Yet unfortunately today this one man dominates Christendom everywhere!
The one man pastor ministry tradition quenches the spirit in others and hinders the body from edifying itself under Christ headship in the gatherings and the mutual edification where all can use their gifts in God’s order (Ephesians 4:15,16, 1 Corinthians 12:7-25, 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Corinthians 14:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:11, Romans 12etc).

How can the order of God be seen when the entire gathering is dominated by one man and body life is hindered? At best these large meetings are similar to evangelistic meetings or a big bible study as I said before. But this tradition has hindered church meetings and the order of God among us and the body life greatly. How can “every one have”, when only the Pastor is allowed to speak and minister? This man made tradition also draws many to gather around men and certain ministries of these men rather than gathering around Christ and the various “programs” they develop. How many today gather around these men and certain doctrines and denominations instead of Christ and His working in every part of the body of Christ
In these traditions, there has been a massive schism in the body of Christ, between the so called, “Clergy”, and the “Laity”. This is a false traition and not based on the scritpures of truth.
The word “clergy”, comes from the Greek word “kleros”, meaning “heritage, inhertitance or lot”, showing that believers are the inheritance, or heritage of God and it is used that way in scripture as we read ,

“ Neither as being lords over God’s heritage [Kleros], but being examples to the flock.” (1 Peter 5:3).

The word “laity” means comes from the word “laos”, meaning, “a people”, and it is used that way in scripture.

“And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people [laos].” ( 2 Corinthians 6:16)

There is no such thing as a clergy and latiy division. The “kleros:, and the “laity” both refer to the body of Christ. We are the inheritance of God and the people of God.
Again we see that mans traditions and order has caused a schism in the body. This schism is mentioned in in 1 Cor 12 and other places, this verse is in reference to men not allowing the body to function as it should, and by causing such a divide between the body and the man at the front called the “pastor”, or the head pastor, senior elder pastor etc. This creates a dysfunction and error in their order. It hinders Christ from working and moving in all the offices in the gatherings.
All the body should have the same care one for another and we are all brothers and sisters. This very unity of the body in the Spirit is part of the goal for ministry. But putting one gifting above others hinders this.

Mutual edification, not just a pastor gifting

Clearly in scripture we see the exact oppostie of a one man pastor ministry, as we have already pointed out. Here are just a few of the verses that show mutual edification of the body and not a just one man pastor ministry.

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:” (Ephesians 4:11, 12)

Clearly, there are more than pastors alone for the work mentioned here, yet somehow this one man pastor gift has dominated Christendom for a long time.

“But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4:15, 16)

As this verse has already been mentioned it is seen again in this context, showing clearly that this work of Christ as the head is not dependant on a one man pastor ministry or any man for that matter. Christ is the one who works “effectually”, in the measure of “every part”. Not just in a one man pastor ministry or selective elders alone.

“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14;26)

“every one of you hath”,
this is so clear here in showing that the ministry of the body in edifying itself was not by just one man called the “pastor”. This section deos not read, “if the pastor hath”. To have something from God is the true way to edify eachother, and this section would connect with Pauls words to the Ehpesians 4 when he said that Christ works in every part of the body. . When God gives, then we have, and so it is Christ that leads the meetings in the truest sense, as the head of the church. This is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:26- 37, 38)

“But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:” ( 1 Corinthians 14:24)


Here again we see that all can prophesy, this is also related to Gods working to convict and judge sin in the camp. and in unbelievers among us. many times a man may even be sharing a word or a teaching and his words may come forth that will convict the hearers to such a degree that they will wonder how the person speaking knew these things about them. When God is moving and working all things are possible. This again is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:24- 37, 38)

“If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:27)

Any man speaking here shows the freedom of the body. This any man is not just the pastor. This is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:27- 37, 38)

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:29)

The prophets can speak also, not just the pastor or a few elders. This shows God’s order in the body and His working as we wait on him and for his revelation and leading. This again is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:29- 37, 38)

“If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.” (1 Corintians 14:30, 31)

Notice that this passage does not say “if anything be revealed to the pastor alone”. No, all may have a revelation and prophesy. Prophecy is to “forthtell, and fortell, and to speak under unction”. Prophesy is connected to “anything” that is revealed. It is also as paul said “...he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:3). It is also for convincing and judging as we have discussed (1 Cor. 14:24).

“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:7).

God would not gives this manifestation to “every man”, if he did not expect every man to function in the body somehow. Again, we do notread “ the manifestation of the Spirit is given to the pastor only”.

“But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you....25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:20, 21,25)

But a schism is created by dividing the pastor gifting from the other gifts and functions of the body as we gather. Some may say this is not specifically speaking of a gathering of believers, but yes, it can extend to all aspects of the body. We read in verses 12:8-10, of wisdom, knowledge, prophecy and tongues etc. These manifestations of the Spirit can be seen in the meetings also. It is ot men that can order this, Gods order is the only way for such a manifestation of the Spirit as Paul said,

“But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:11).

“Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.” ( 1 Thessalonians 5:11)

The “one anothering” is part of God’s order for the mutual edification of eachother in Christ. Without this one anothering, we would not have proper growth and building up of the body thus creating a weak and dysfunctional body. The pastor cannot do all this, and was never intended to. To even try to will lead them to be overwhelmed and over burdened. There are many “one another” verses in the New Testament, here are just a few, (1 Thessalonians 4:18, Hebrews 10:25, James 5:16, Ephesians 5:12, Romans 14:19, Romans 15:14, 1 Corinthians 11:33, 1 Corinthians 16:20)

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16)

Where in this verse do we see a one man pastor gifting doing most if not all the ministry to the body? No, we see that it is the word of Christ dwelling in us that builds us up and we speak forth from this. This is God’s order again, and His leading us and working in us.

“Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” ( Hebrews 10:15)

How often have ministers said the first part of this verse about not forsaking the assembly of ourselves, but they do not stress the last part of “exhorting one another”. This “one another” aspect is vital to the assembly of ourselves together. This is not defining a one man pastor ministry, but instead the body ministry to one another as Christ. And this is more needful as we see the day approaching, which we can see that it is.

“For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:” (Romans 12:4-8)

Again, as believers we are members one of another and so can edify eachother. To limit this one anothering to a single man called “the pastor” is not sound and can greatly hinder the body of Christ. This aspect of the body spoken here in Romans 12, can extend to the daily lives of believers and not only to the gatherings of the saints into one place, but it also extends to the assemblies of the church in the houses, for we read of the body edification and teaching and prophecy and exhorting etc.
Also the way for all this to take place is when we are dead to self and pick up our cross. Paul speaks of this in verse 12:1, and said, “that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”. When we are dead to self the life of Christ can be manifest in our mortal bodies ( 2 Cor 4:10,11). Paul even said to the Corintians “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:2). To know Christ crucified and to be crucified with him, is how we are able to walk in God’s order, in the Spirit. This is how the life of Christ may be made manifest in our meetings and lives.

No Need for any man to teach

So we do not need men to teach us in reality, for God does it directly? And where is man’s order in this? Scripture reveals this to us,

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. “ (1 John 2:27)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)


As John clearly said, it is the anointing that teaches us all things and not just some things in our walk. He wrote this against some men that were seducing the saints (1 John 2:26). He uses this truth against all attacks and it is a sure guard against deception. And this truth is espescially needed in our time as well, with many false teacher everywhere and great deception and doctrines of devils abounding, not to mention mans order. John uses this anointing which is the word of God, and Christ in us as a sure bulwark against all deceivers. Some may say, "but anyone can claim to be listening to the anointing". True enough but this is still the way to know and discern all things. The anointing of the Spirit was in the writers of the scripture and so the Spirit will guide us into all truth as well. We also have the body of Christ and every member who has the anointing to bear witness to the truth.
Some will immediately say, But didnt God give teacher gifts?" . Yes he did and the GIFT of teaching is as God leads them. We do not listen so much to the man but the truth and witness in our spirit as they speak. It is not a mans own wisdom we listen for. Paul said he did not come to them with the eloquency of speech but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power. And we know that the word of God is quick and powerful.
All believers must be led by the Spirit to follow God’s order in this way. Even those who God gives the gift of teaching to must be led this way. It is the anointing that reveals all things to us and this witness is in our hearts where God dwells. As we wait on God, listen in our hearts and minds, and are led of his Spirit we will have the kind of ears that hear and eyes that see.
In the church gatherings this waiting and listening is very important to be able to follow God’s order and to be led by the Spirit in all things as Christ effectually works in us, and for that door of utterance he gives as we walk in the gift of God and His grace (Romans 12:7,8, Romans 8:14, 1 Corinthians 1:5, Ephesians 6;18, Colossians 4:2, 2 Timothy 4:5, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Colossians 4:3, Ecclesiastes 5:1,2, Proverbs 16:1, Hebrews 13:5, Hebrews 2:Isaiah 40:31, Isaiah 41:1, 1 Corinthians 14:1, 30, Ephesians 4:16, 21). And all things must be in line with Holy scriptures, which were given by the same Spirit, and who inspired men to write what we have today (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20)
Sadly though, many believe that God does not lead us this way today, and many teach that we cannot hear God’s voice today except through scripture, and so they have come to rely on mans wisdom and natural means to know the things of God, contrary to Paul's words where he said, “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them” (1 Corinthias 2:14).
Even among those that do teach more acceptance to spiritual gifts today, they still often rely on human wisdom and mans eloquence with a dominant leader over the body rather than the anointing of God to teach all things..
While we are to test all things by Holy Scripture and God has given us scripture for our perfecting and furnishing, and we magnify the scriptures, still, without the Lord in us and his working effectually we can do nothing and know nothing (John 15:5, 1 Cor. 2:14). Even if men rely only on scripture, they will find themselves very much like the pharisees, who had the scripture and yet missed the living Word, Jesus who was right in front of them. We have God directly working in us to make us perfect (Hebrews 13:20,21) , the body of believers and God’s working in them, to make us perfect, (Ephesians 4:10-16) and the Holy scriptures to make us perfect (1 Timothy 3:16,17) all are needed as we walk in the Spirit.
But God has not ceased from his working today and He continues to work in every believer through Christ, it is the word and anointing that builds us up and teaches us all things. God still speaks to the hearts of all His children, as it is written “To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.” (Hebrews 3:5). To know God is eternal life ( John 17:??) and how can believers know God unless they can hear his voice and his word. In the spirit we can ears to hear and eyes to see. and we see and hear Christ the Word of God (Matthew 13:16, Galatians 4:6, Colossians 3:15,16, 2 Thessalonians 3:5, Revelation 3:13,20, ).
God also equips every member severally as he wills with giftings and power, ( 1 Cor 12:7-25)-?? All the gifts of God as well have not ceased for the church, and we are always in need of every member of the body (1 Corinthians 14:26-37, Ephesians 4:16, 1 Peter 4:10,11). But this is too large a discussion for here


And elders are not the same word as pastor and elders are not just pastors. Peter was an elder and an apostle .
 
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daydreamergurl15

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In the Scriptures the name "Pastor" is another name for Shepherd/Presbyter/Bishop/Elder/Overseer where each name points to a role that they do and it is all interchangeable. A preacher and an pastor are not the same thing unless the Pastor is also a preacher and vice versa.

I am not looking to have a debate on what you are saying because I agree "one man" does not oversee the church, however I wanted to get clarification on your definition of "Pastor".
 
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LoveofTruth

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In the Scriptures the name "Pastor" is another name for Shepherd/Presbyter/Bishop/Elder/Overseer where each name points to a role that they do and it is all interchangeable. A preacher and an pastor are not the same thing unless the Pastor is also a preacher and vice versa.

I am not looking to have a debate on what you are saying because I agree "one man" does not oversee the church, however I wanted to get clarification on your definition of "Pastor".

The gift of pastor is one of the five fold gifts in Ephesians 4. The elders (matutre men in the faith older etc, are also called overseeres, they are the same person. The pastor apostle evangelist prophets and teachers are giftings that may be among the elder overseeres. The word elder and pastor are not synonomus words meaning the same thing. Also apostles can be elders as well 1 peter 5 and not just pastors, and so can any gift be among the elders in the five fold giftings.

Nowhere in all the New Testament do we ever read of one man over a church called the pastor getting a regular salary and doing most of the ministry. We see the entire body ministering to one another and edifying one another.

What we see today of the modern pastor role is unbiblical. Plurality of elder/overseers ( with apostle, prophet or evangelist pastor or teachers gifts), is biblical.
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Acts 20:17,28
Tit. 1:5,7
1 Peter 5:1,2
All shows the interchangeability of the term for elders. FYI, this depends on your translation for some versions don't use specific terms. Shepherd pastor the sheep, that's what elders do.

Anyway, good luck finding someone to debate with you on this topic.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Acts 20:17,28
Tit. 1:5,7
1 Peter 5:1,2
All shows the interchangeability of the term for elders. FYI, this depends on your translation for some versions don't use specific terms. Shepherd pastor the sheep, that's what elders do.

Anyway, good luck finding someone to debate with you on this topic.

I agree that elder/overseer are the same person. The elder is who he is , He is a mature believer, older in the faith, the overseer is what he does, he watches over the weaker brothers and feeds often who is apt to teach by God's grace. And the elder/overseer may be a pastor apostle, eveangelist, prophet or teacher gift.

The word pastor is not the same as an elder. the two are not joined in scripture as only elders are the pastor. In fact we never see a pastor gift over a whole church getting a regular salary and doing most of the ministry in the new testament ( except Jesus who is the head of the church Eph 4;15,16) . Elders plural in every church is the order.
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Shepherd is usually interchanged with Pastors in some translations. That's probably where you are getting the misunderstanding. The verse that use "pastor" please realize it is not associated with Preaching/Minister/Evangelist.

Ephesians 4:11 clearly states that He gave some to be
-Apostles
-Prophets
-Evangelists
-Pastors (Shepherd's in some translations--Ex. Darby, ESV)
-Teachers

I don't know Greek but maybe this will help: http://biblehub.com/greek/4166.htm

But anyway, you keep injecting your initial arguments when commenting to me. I have no desire to debate with you about that issue.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Shepherd is usually interchanged with Pastors in some translations. That's probably where you are getting the misunderstanding. The verse that use "pastor" please realize it is not associated with Preaching/Minister/Evangelist.

Ephesians 4:11 clearly states that He gave some to be
-Apostles
-Prophets
-Evangelists
-Pastors (Shepherd's in some translations--Ex. Darby, ESV)
-Teachers

I don't know Greek but maybe this will help: http://biblehub.com/greek/4166.htm

But anyway, you keep injecting your initial arguments when commenting to me. I have no desire to debate with you about that issue.

Yes I understand that God gave GIFTS (not titles) to men, as the five fold gifts in Ephesians. And I understand that pastor and shepherd have affinity. I am not speaking about that. i am speaking about elder and overseer being the same person. And an elder/overseer may have one of the five fold gifts. there is no understanding the modern role of the one man ministry over all called the pastor is unbiblical. Nowhere in the whole new testament do we ever see one man over a church called the pastor ( in the modern role of the pastor) who gets a regular salary and who does most of the ministry and who is the head of the church and senior CEO, or president, or senior pastor etc. All man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect.

and i am sure that no one here will try to debate me because there really is not argument against sc rpture and the trth i speak. But the sad thing is that the modern one man ministry that we see over all today where the one gift of pastor is over all is not biblical and this quenched the ministry and gifts on the whole body by not allowing freedom for Christ to effectually work in the measure of every part and edify .

And yes there are "pastor gifts" in the body today. What speak about is the wrong one man pastor ministry over all today as the head and who is the man dominating and exalted over all.

But I doubt any will try to debate this, although I have heard some in another thread. usually they get themselves bound p in the traditions of men and sway away from scripture and start quoting so called "church fathers etc" and don't stick with the apostles doctrine and teaching from the Lord in scripture. Or they will just look at how they do things in their gathering and just try to defend it, which usually they cannot with scripture.

there is also no such thing as church buildings programs for meetings, worship leaders, tithing, paid pastors over all, registration with the government for tax breaks etc etc etc.
 
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