Interesting new angle on rights that allow bakers to do what they want....

NothingIsImpossible

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So obviously christians are losing when it comes to having the right to deny making a cake for certain types of people. Mainly because the nation is growing more secular. And while we tend to say freedom of religion, freedom of speech.... a new idea has come forth that I really like. One that I think can win our rights to not bake a cake for certain individuals. Granted I don't see baking the cake as the end of the world, Gods not sending me to hell for it. But none the less its about principle. So heres a article (cut down for length issues) that I REALLY love and hope more christians (and those of any religion) read that could help us win our rights (link at bottom):

The First Amendment freedom, nonetheless, is worth defending. But it clearly is not enough. Thus, conservatives need to battle on other beaches, starting by more vigorously invoking the First Amendment’s freedom of association.

Americans enjoy the freedom to associate with and without whom we wish. This liberty is enshrined in merchants’ placards that read: “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” An atheist baker who prefers not to associate with Bible-waving Baptists should be free to refer them elsewhere. Conversely, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim bakers should be free to invite gay couples to order their cakes from bakers who welcome their business.

Likewise, a baker who also runs the Houston chapter of the Climate Action Network should not be forced to make a cake honoring Exxon’s Oil Man of the Year. The First Amendment’s freedom of speech clause should be another conservative battlefield. If a judge can force a Christian baker to use her frosting pen to write on a cake, “Happy Wedding Day, Bill and Ted,” that same judge could force a pro-NARAL baker to use a frosting pen to adorn a cake with the words “Abortion is murder.”

If frosting pens do not involve free speech, how about calligraphy pens? Compelling a fundamentalist Muslim calligrapher to write an invitation to the wedding of Simon and Shlomo is no less oppressive than demanding that Rachel Maddow whip out a pen and write the words, “America needs Donald J. Trump.”

If calligraphy is not art, photography surely is. Denying a women the right to choose whether or not to take pictures at a wedding constitutes art at gunpoint. Just ask Elaine Huguenin, whom New Mexico’s Supreme Court ruled must photograph a lesbian wedding. (The U.S. Supreme Court spurned her appeal.) What could be more un-American than that? Rather than militate solely for religious liberty, conservatives and libertarians should rail against coerced speech and compulsory expression.

Meanwhile, “Neither slavery nor involuntary nor involuntary servitude . . . shall exist within the United States,” the 13th Amendment holds. While professionals likely need less time, BridalMusings.com advises: “Set aside a whole day to make your cake.” If bakers must spend hours and hours creating cakes unwillingly, this is involuntary servitude. Is this picking cotton in the blazing sun while being whipped? No. Is this exerting one’s labor against one’s wishes? Yes. This insults the free society.

Ironically, Christians are losing the Wedding Cake War because they are too Christian. Rather than forgive, they need to fight.

http://www.newsmax.com/DeroyMurdock/gay-wedding-cake/2016/04/28/id/726291/
 

durangodawood

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I know that commerce is not treated the same as other arenas of life, constitutionally speaking. For instance, commercial speech can be regulated in ways that private or artistic or journalistic speech never would be.

Do you think association will treated different than speech, in the arena of commerce?

And if, against all precendent, freedom of association does get greater protection than freedom of speech in its application to commerce.... will this end up with businesses being legally entitled engage in racial discrimination?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Americans enjoy the freedom to associate with and without whom we wish. This liberty is enshrined in merchants’ placards that read: “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.”

Bzzzzt. Freedom of association is not connected to the right to refuse service in a public business. If you set up your bakery as a private club, with a membership list, you might be able to discriminate as much as you want, like whites-only or men-only golf courses.
 
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Gene2memE

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It's hardly a new angle (at all). In fact, it's so old there is a palpable stench of decay about it.

Lets take a look at the article:

Americans enjoy the freedom to associate with and without whom we wish. This liberty is enshrined in merchants’ placards that read: “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.”

Merchants do not have an unrestricted right to refuse service, despite what the placards read.

The US Civil Rights Act does not allow merchants to deny service to a member of the public on the basis of characteristics such as race, colour, religious belief, sex, sexual orientation or nationality. Similarly, US case law generally frowns on refusal service for arbitrary reasons, such as disfigurement or pieces of attire.

An atheist baker who prefers not to associate with Bible-waving Baptists should be free to refer them elsewhere. Conversely, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim bakers should be free to invite gay couples to order their cakes from bakers who welcome their business.

If you are a merchant operating a business in the public market and providing service to the public, then you cannot be selective about which section of the public you serve and which you don't.

If you do, this is known as discrimination.

Likewise, a baker who also runs the Houston chapter of the Climate Action Network should not be forced to make a cake honoring Exxon’s Oil Man of the Year.

Here, we get a little trickier. Businesses are not considered as member of the public. As such a business is not a protected class under the US civil rights acts.

So, a baker could, in fact, refuse to offer their product to Exxon and legally they'd be fine doing so.

If a judge can force a Christian baker to use her frosting pen to write on a cake, “Happy Wedding Day, Bill and Ted,” that same judge could force a pro-NARAL baker to use a frosting pen to adorn a cake with the words “Abortion is murder.”

This would be a case of compelled speech, not discrimination.

The recent court decisions about the Colorado bakery found that “the act of designing and selling a wedding cake to all customers free of discrimination does not convey a celebratory message about same-sex weddings likely to be understood by those who view it.”

In contrast, writing “Abortion is murder” would be a case of compelled speech, as it would convey a message about an ideological position, in this case re abortion and murder.

If frosting pens do not involve free speech, how about calligraphy pens? Compelling a fundamentalist Muslim calligrapher to write an invitation to the wedding of Simon and Shlomo is no less oppressive than demanding that Rachel Maddow whip out a pen and write the words, “America needs Donald J. Trump.”

Again, if the Muslim calligrapher is offering their services to the public, they cannot discriminate against any of the protected classes. Demanding that Rachel Maddow write the words, “America needs Donald J. Trump." is compelled speech, and would therefore violate her First Amendment rights.

Denying a women the right to choose whether or not to take pictures at a wedding constitutes art at gunpoint. Just ask Elaine Huguenin, whom New Mexico’s Supreme Court ruled must photograph a lesbian wedding. (The U.S. Supreme Court spurned her appeal.) What could be more un-American than that? Rather than militate solely for religious liberty, conservatives and libertarians should rail against coerced speech and compulsory expression.

What could be more un-American than discrimination based on someone's sexual orientation? The US Declaration of Independence notes that "all men are created equal", and the Eighth Amendment requires equal protection under the law for all citizens.

Why then, should religious beliefs be any exemption to equal treatment for all citizens when doing business?

If bakers must spend hours and hours creating cakes unwillingly, this is involuntary servitude.

No, it isn't. Disliking or having a religious objection to the person who has hired you for you services is not sufficient for this to be considered involuntary servitude.

Legally, involuntary servitude requires not only compulsory service or labor performed against a persons will, but it also need to be due to force, threats, intimidation or other similar means of coercion and compulsion directed against that person other than financial needs.

So, while they may not like doing it (I've done editing work for writers that I've positively LOATHED), there is no coercion by force or other measures (apart from equal protection under the law), thus no involuntary servitude.
 
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Belk

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So obviously christians are losing when it comes to having the right to deny making a cake for certain types of people. Mainly because the nation is growing more secular. And while we tend to say freedom of religion, freedom of speech.... a new idea has come forth that I really like. One that I think can win our rights to not bake a cake for certain individuals. Granted I don't see baking the cake as the end of the world, Gods not sending me to hell for it. But none the less its about principle. So heres a article (cut down for length issues) that I REALLY love and hope more christians (and those of any religion) read that could help us win our rights (link at bottom):


No. That is not the reason you are losing these cases.
 
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Murby

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Granted I don't see baking the cake as the end of the world, Gods not sending me to hell for it. But none the less its about principle.

And what principle would that be again?

If I was a person of the Christian faith (or any faith for that matter), I'd be real careful about persecuting others....
Those who persecute others don't tend to garner a lot of empathy when they end up being persecuted themselves.

Edit:
How would you like it if your internet service provider cut off your service because they didn't agree with the things you type into forums like this? Would you like being disconnected because they disagreed "on principle?"
 
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SkyWriting

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Edit:
How would you like it if your internet service provider cut off your service because they didn't agree with the things you type into forums like this? Would you like being disconnected because they disagreed "on principle?"

No. That is not the reason you are losing these cases.

You are both correct!

The reason these cases are won is based entirely on expansion of the Christian Biblical golden rule.

We can't deny service to any group of people based on a non economic characteristic we deem important
unless we allow that same group to deny us business based on the same method of discrimination.

For example, we can't deny black people cakes, just as black caterers can't deny cakes to whites.

It's the Christian rule being properly applied.
 
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SkyWriting

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Mainly because the nation is growing more secular.

No, it's because the courts are following Mathew 7:12

12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want
them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
.
 
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SkyWriting

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The US Civil Rights Act does not allow merchants to deny service to a member of the public on the basis of characteristics such as race, colour, religious belief, sex, sexual orientation or nationality. Similarly, US case law generally frowns on refusal service for arbitrary reasons, such as disfigurement or pieces of attire.

Ask, Seek, Knock
11"If you then, being evil (secular), know how to give good gifts to (only) your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him! (how much better our country will operate if we don't allow non-economic factors to interfere with free commerce)

12 "In everything (business) , therefore, (we shall all) treat people the same way you want them to treat you,
for this is the Law and the Prophets.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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Now I did say I myself am not really against baking a cake for a gay wedding. I mean its not world ending. However with that said I also believe in standing up for what you believe. Which is why if the time came where christians were being persecuted I'd stand up against any law. Throw me in jail, fine me... that nothing to me. I only answer to God. Not man who is corrupt by nature. But baking a cake for someone.... not going to waste my time getting thrown in jail over that.

How would you like it if your internet service provider cut off your service because they didn't agree with the things you type into forums like this? Would you like being disconnected because they disagreed "on principle?"
Well the internet is limited on how you can access it. Getting a cake baked is not limited.
 
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SkyWriting

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Now I did say I myself am not really against baking a cake for a gay wedding. I mean its not world ending. However with that said I also believe in standing up for what you believe. Which is why if the time came where christians were being persecuted I'd stand up against any law.

Exactly! If all bakers refused to provide Christian Wedding cakes, and stores refused to sell
cake mixes to Christians, we'd need to stop that.
 
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Ana the Ist

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So obviously christians are losing when it comes to having the right to deny making a cake for certain types of people. Mainly because the nation is growing more secular. And while we tend to say freedom of religion, freedom of speech.... a new idea has come forth that I really like. One that I think can win our rights to not bake a cake for certain individuals. Granted I don't see baking the cake as the end of the world, Gods not sending me to hell for it. But none the less its about principle. So heres a article (cut down for length issues) that I REALLY love and hope more christians (and those of any religion) read that could help us win our rights (link at bottom):

The company that provides water to my home is privately owned...

You would be in favor of this company being able to decide that they don't want to provide their services to all whites where I live? Keep in mind they are the only company that provides water to this area...the city doesn't.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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Huh?? :scratch:
You're either not making any sense or I'm not interpreting your statement correctly.. Please clarify..
What I mean is there are only a few ISPs to get internet access from. Where as with a baker, you can find hundreds of thousands in america. In other words, if a cake won't be baked for you, you go half a mile away to another place.
 
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Moral Orel

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I liked this part the most:

"Ironically, Christians are losing the Wedding Cake War because they are too Christian."

You think people are being "too Christian" and they ought to be less Christian?

When the article itself notices that they are advocating something that is less than the ideal Christian, that ought to raise some red flags...
 
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Hank77

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The US Civil Rights Act does not allow merchants to deny service to a member of the public on the basis of characteristics such as race, colour, religious belief, sex, sexual orientation or nationality.
As far as public accomodations, I don't think the US CR Act covers for sexual orientation, those discrimination laws are state, county, and city laws.
This would be a case of compelled speech, not discrimination.

The recent court decisions about the Colorado bakery found that “the act of designing and selling a wedding cake to all customers free of discrimination does not convey a celebratory message about same-sex weddings likely to be understood by those who view it.”

In contrast, writing “Abortion is murder” would be a case of compelled speech, as it would convey a message about an ideological position, in this case re abortion and murder.
Another case would be the T-Shirt shop which could not be compelled to print shirts for a LGBT group because what they wanted printed on the shirts was something that the shop would not print for anyone, not just them.
In other words, if a cake won't be baked for you, you go half a mile away to another place.
Really? Where I live the closet bakery for a wedding cake is 60 miles away and the next closest is over 100 miles away. Then the bakery usually delivers the cake to the site of the reception and sets it up.
 
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Gene2memE

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As far as public accomodations, I don't think the US CR Act covers for sexual orientation, those discrimination laws are state, county, and city laws.

Not explicitly. However, it does cover sex/gender as a protected class. It has been successfully argued legally that discrimination base on on sexual orientation discrimination is also discrimination based on gender.
 
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KCfromNC

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Now I did say I myself am not really against baking a cake for a gay wedding. I mean its not world ending. However with that said I also believe in standing up for what you believe.

If people really want to stand up for what they believe in this case, close up shop. Enduring some hardship to show that you really believe is a lot more impressive display of ones convictions than making a minor nuisance to paying customers.
 
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KCfromNC

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In other words, if a cake won't be baked for you, you go half a mile away to another place.

What about places where businesses aren't so plentiful? Seems like we'd need some sort of government oversight to make sure all people have equal access. Perhaps we could set up some agency to grill business owners on their religious beliefs and only let the most sincere ones discriminate. In more densly populated areas the bar would be lower, but in areas where things are more empty the religious beliefs and practices of various business owners would need to be monitored much more closely. Can't prove you went to church this week? You no longer get to turn away black people. Any someone's going to have to pay for this, so it only seems fair to heavily tax churches who support this kind of behavior.

Or we could just have it as it is now - religious beliefs of various employees don't allow businesses to ignore the law.
 
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Murby

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What I mean is there are only a few ISPs to get internet access from. Where as with a baker, you can find hundreds of thousands in america. In other words, if a cake won't be baked for you, you go half a mile away to another place.

So you want discrimination laws to be based on the number of participants??? :scratch:
 
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