Intelligent Design

Can Intelligent Design be Identified Scientifically

  • Yes

  • No

  • Possibly (explain)

  • It's a stupid question (really explain)


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mark kennedy

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Mark, you did not seem to answer the most important piece of shernren's post:

And the reason this matters is because mRNA isn't heritable, but DNA is, so if you confuse something that happens to mRNA for a mutation, you're going to think of a lot of things as heritable when they actually aren't (directly, at least)
.​

Is this true or not? If not, why? Because if it is, you really don't seem to have a dog in this fight.

That's not even an issue, the question raised is whether or not a transcript error is a mutation. I was focused on DNA-transcription-RNA-translation, whether or not they are heritable was never an issue. Now, transcription is the process that begins with the unzipping of the double helix and results in the mRNA sequence that begins the building process.

He keeps introducing unrelated issues as a diversionary tactic but I'll answer the question. It all depends.

The most important question is whether or not evolutionists can understand the difference between an error during transcription and a transcription error. I knew the difference the first time the subject came up but a transcription error is a mutation and he will never have to admit that.

Damage and transcription error
Mitochondrial DNA is susceptible to damage from free oxygen radicals from mistakes that occur during the production of ATP through the electron transport chain. These mistakes can be caused by genetic disorders, cancer, and temperature variations. These radicals can damage mtDNA molecules or change them, making it hard for mitochondrial polymerase to replicate them. Both cases can lead to deletions, rearrangements, and other mutations. Recent evidence has suggested that mitochondria have enzymes that proofread mtDNA and fix mutations that may occur due to free radicals.(Human mitochondrial genetics)​

Transcript errors are mutations, that's the issue.
 
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shernren

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Sigh, mark, you're just too funny.

I knew the difference the first time the subject came up but a transcription error is a mutation and he will never have to admit that.

Someday I hope you'll have the guts to stop lying about evolutionists and start listening to them.

I have to say that according to what I have found thus far Mark appears to be correct. Do with that information what you will, but I figure I would chip in and see if the conversation could move along.

It's really a question of how mutations are defined. And I must say that the blame lies squarely on me for harping too much on the other definitions and not the definition of a mutation. ... the authors of a recent study re(?)define "mutation" to simply be "error in genetic code" in the following extract:
Errors occur both during DNA replication (i.e., cell division) and during transcription of DNA to RNA and subsequent translation into protein. We call errors of the first kind genotypic mutations and those of the second kind phenotypic mutations.
Why Are Phenotypic Mutation Rates Much Higher Than Genotypic Mutation Rates? -- Bürger et al. 172 (1): 197 -- Genetics

So mark, you were somewhat right - and evolution is actually a whole lot easier than you thought! ;)

Your [mark's] opinion is apparently also supported by some official definitions.

Personally, I think you're both arguing semantics. Yes, technically transcription errors can be called mutations, but that term could definitely become misleading when discussing the heritability of mutations.
 
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crawfish

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Transcript errors are mutations, that's the issue.

Thanks. Seems cut and dried to me.

Tracking down post references, This seems to be the root of the argument:

Mark Kennedy said:
I don't know how much a transcript error, deletion, insertion, point mutation or rearrangement can help adapt organisms over time. It's difficult for me to track down but I get the impression that I have stumbled into a very complicated world of exploration.

Complicated, indeed.
 
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mark kennedy

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Thanks. Seems cut and dried to me.

Tracking down post references, This seems to be the root of the argument:



Complicated, indeed.

It can be, there is a lot going on during the transcription process, my original point that transcript errors are mutations stands:

Darwin's scientific theory of the evolution of speciesThis article discusses biological species. Also see combinatorial species for the mathematical meaning of the term. Species is also a movie by Roger Donaldson. In English "species" is both singular and plural. The word " specie" is unrelated and is used t through natural selection starts from the premise that an organism's traits vary in a non-deterministic way from parent to offspring, a process called "individuation" by Darwin. This theory does not make any specific claims as to how this process works, although more recent scientific discoveries in genetics explain several mechanisms that occur in the process of reproduction: in the case of both asexual and sexual reproduction, random mutation (including DNA transcription errors) Natural selection


Right now I I'm reading Meyer's book 'the signature inside the cell'. It will probably be a couple of days before I start posting again. Maybe when I get back we can actually discuss Intelligent Design....we'll see.
 
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Papias

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Meyer has no degree related to genetics (or even biology) so it no surpise that his book is filled with falsehoods about genetics. He has made millions from dupes who also lack degrees in genetics or biology who pay for his book. Worse, they not only come away poorer, but also filled with misinformation, ready to post it on innocent message boards.

Perhaps instead read a book that contains actual science, by someone who is a real biologist. That would be "Relics of Eden", by Fairbanks, who is a Christian himself. Amazon.com: Relics of Eden: The Powerful Evidence of Evolution in Human DNA (9781616141608): Daniel J. Fairbanks: Books

Papias
 
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mark kennedy

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It's telling that atheists hate ID but Christian scholars love them, especially evangelicals. I just can't help but wonder how you could have so much animosity for a creationist or intelligent design world view and still maintain New Testament conviction. You guys are not just critical, you are down right nasty the way you hurl these unrelenting insults and mockery.

RC Sproul is a radio preacher who covers subject like, the history of philosophy, theology, Bible study, apologetics, intelligent design, and has written over 60 books. See unlike our Darwinian brethren who choose to attack bible believing Christians there are evangelicals who actually minister to them, building them up in their faith.

Stephen Meyer is interviewed on Renewing Your Mind, I found it very interesting that he relates his interest in Origins and how it's related to Christian Apologetics. RC Sproul also interviewed Ben Stein when Expelled was coming out. RC Sproul's book on Justification By Faith and his series of lessons on the subject was a big influence on me at a crucial time.

Why do acorns become oak trees rather than elephants? Drs. R.C. Sproul and Stephen Meyer discuss how DNA reveals intelligent design. (Intelligent Design Interview (Part 1))​

Now hurry up and bury the post, heaping as much scorn and derision as possible. We wouldn't want Christians to get the idea that a belief in God as creator or designer is somehow related to our faith. If you actually follow the link before you start your fallacious credulity bashing you'll find RC Sproul speaks often to the philosophical and theological importance of theistic reasoning.

That's one of the reasons I've remained a strict YEC, if I have to choose sides between that atheistic materialism of Darwinian evolution and Bible believing Christians, think I would rather err on the side of faith. You guys act like you don't get it but I think you do, just a word of warning, friendship with the world is emnity against God:

know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)​

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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Also, getting your biology definitions from "economicexpert.com"? Seriously?

At least I know where my theology comes from and why it's essential to causality and logic. By the way, still think an error during transcription is not a mutation?

dna-9a.jpg
In a eukaryote, DNA never leaves the nucleus, so its information must be copied. This copying process is called transcription and the copy is mRNA. How DNA Works
Translation.gif

Meyer has no degree related to genetics (or even biology) so it no surpise that his book is filled with falsehoods about genetics. He has made millions from dupes who also lack degrees in genetics or biology who pay for his book. Worse, they not only come away poorer, but also filled with misinformation, ready to post it on innocent message boards.

Yea he had some poultry Ph.D. in history and philosophy of science from Cambridge, how could he have possibly learned Biology and Genetics well enough to conclude an Intelligent Designer in 20 years.

Do you know no shame, how do you just heap all this ridicule on Christians and scholars to the exclusions of substantive issues? Does it take a lot of practice, coaching or training because I think it edifies and encourages only the most zealous of anti-theistic intellectual pirates.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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shernren

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It's telling that atheists hate ID but Christian scholars love them, especially evangelicals. I just can't help but wonder how you could have so much animosity for a creationist or intelligent design world view and still maintain New Testament conviction.

And yet even before Darwin, there were astute Christians who spoke up against Intelligent Design, then proposed by Paley.
I have no wish to speak lightly of the merits of this so-called Natural or, more properly, Physical Theology. There are a great many minds so constituted that, when they turn their thoughts to the question of the existence of a Supreme Being, they feel a comfort in resting the proof mainly or solely on the Argument of Design which the Universe furnishes. To them this science of Physical Theology is of high importance. Again, this science exhibits, in great prominence and distinctness, three of the more elementary notions which the human reason attaches to the idea of a Supreme Being, that is, three of His simplest attributes, Power, Wisdom, and Goodness.

These are great services rendered to faith by Physical Theology, and I acknowledge them as such. Whether, however, Faith on that account owes any great deal to Physics or Physicists, is another matter. The Argument from Design is really in no sense due to the philosophy of Bacon. The author I quoted just now has a striking passage on this point, of which I have already read to you a part. "As respects Natural Religion," he says, "it is not easy to see that the philosopher of the present day is more favourably situated than Thales or Simonides. He has before him just the same evidences of design in the structure of the universe which the early Greeks had. We say, just the same; for the discoveries of modern astronomers and anatomists have really added nothing to the force of that argument which a reflecting mind finds in every beast, bird, insect, fish, leaf, flower, and shell. The reasoning by which Socrates, in Xenophon's hearing, confuted the little atheist, Aristodemus, is exactly the reasoning of Paley's Natural Theology. Socrates makes precisely the same use of the statues of Polycletus and the pictures of Zeuxis, which Paley makes of the watch."

Physical Theology, then, is pretty much what it was two thousand years ago, and has not received much help from modern science: but now, on the contrary, I think it has received from it a positive disadvantage,—I mean, it has been taken out of its place, has been put too prominently forward, and thereby has almost been used as an instrument against Christianity...

Observe, then, Gentlemen, that Physical Theology teaches three Divine Attributes, I may say, exclusively; and of these, most of Power, and least of Goodness.

And in the next place, what, on the contrary, are those special Attributes, which are the immediate correlatives of religious sentiment? Sanctity, omniscience, justice, mercy, faithfulness. What does Physical Theology, what does the Argument from Design, what do fine disquisitions about final causes, teach us, except very indirectly, faintly, enigmatically, of these transcendently important, these essential portions of the idea of Religion? Religion is more than Theology; it is something relative to us; and it includes our relation towards the Object of it. What does Physical Theology tell us of duty and conscience? of a particular providence? and, coming at length to Christianity, what does it teach us even of the four last things, death, judgment, heaven, and hell, the mere elements of Christianity? It cannot tell us anything of Christianity at all.

Gentlemen, let me press this point upon your earnest attention. I say Physical Theology cannot, from the nature of the case, tell us one word about Christianity proper; it cannot be Christian, in any true sense, at all:—and from this plain reason, because it is derived from informations which existed just as they are now, before man was created, and Adam fell. How can that be a real substantive Theology, though it takes the name, which is but an abstraction, a particular aspect of the whole truth, and is dumb almost as regards the moral attributes of the Creator, and utterly so as regards the evangelical?

Nay, more than this; I do not hesitate to say that, taking men as they are, this so-called science tends, if it occupies the mind, to dispose it against Christianity. And for this plain reason, because it speaks only of laws; and cannot contemplate their suspension, that is, miracles, which are of the essence of the idea of a Revelation. Thus, the God of Physical Theology may very easily become a mere idol; for He comes to the inductive mind in the medium of fixed appointments, so excellent, so skilful, so beneficent, that, when it has for a long time gazed upon them, it will think them too beautiful to be broken, and will at length so contract its notion of Him as to conclude that He never could have the heart (if I may dare use such a term) to undo or mar His own work; and this conclusion will be the first step towards its degrading its idea of God a second time, and identifying Him with His works. Indeed, a Being of Power, Wisdom, and Goodness, and nothing else, is not very different from the God of the Pantheist.
- John Henry Newman, The Idea of a University, 1852
Newman Reader - Idea of University
 
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shernren

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At least I know where my theology comes from and why it's essential to causality and logic. By the way, still think an error during transcription is not a mutation?

Depends on the definition of "mutation". Princeton's WordNet has:
any event that changes genetic structure;
any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence of the genotype of an organism.

Yes, a transcription error "changes genetic structure" in the sense that DNA and RNA are mismatched;
no, a transcription error does not cause "any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence" of an organism (except by the most indirect means or under the most unusual circumstances, notably recombinative hypermutation).

I should not hesitate to point out that you did not define what a mutation is (in general - and as anyone can see, the definition is not necessarily clear), you did not cite any scientific papers backing up your definition of transcript errors as mutations, and you did not show how that concept is at all useful in the discussion of evolution.

On the other hand, I defined mutations, I showed papers that backed up your use of the concept, and I described how phenotypic mutations are important in evolution.

Tell me something mark, if my priorities really consist in ridiculing and tearing down Christians, why is it that I was able to make your own case for you in one post more strongly than you were able to in five years?
 
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mark kennedy

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Depends on the definition of "mutation". Princeton's WordNet has:
any event that changes genetic structure;
any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence of the genotype of an organism.

Yes, a transcription error "changes genetic structure" in the sense that DNA and RNA are mismatched;
no, a transcription error does not cause "any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence" of an organism (except by the most indirect means or under the most unusual circumstances, notably recombinative hypermutation).

Well, now you are tossing a lot of verbage around, splitting hairs and droning on and on, further and further from the substantive issues of the thread. I think thats the whole point:

Phenotypic mutations (errors occurring during protein synthesis) are orders of magnitude more frequent than genetic mutations...They did so, primarily, by increasing TEM-1's tolerance to destabilizing deleterious mutations that arise from transcriptional errors...Thus, although phenotypic mutations are not individually subjected to inheritance and natural selection, as are genetic mutations, they collectively exert a direct and immediate effect on protein fitness. (Potential role of phenotypic mutations in the evolution of protein expression and stability)​

I never said transcription errors were inheritable, I said they were mutations.

I should not hesitate to point out that you did not define what a mutation is (in general - and as anyone can see, the definition is not necessarily clear), you did not cite any scientific papers backing up your definition of transcript errors as mutations, and you did not show how that concept is at all useful in the discussion of evolution.

I have said repeatedly that mutations are a failure of DNA repair. Your the one who asks all the questions and never defines his central and fulcrum terms.

On the other hand, I defined mutations, I showed papers that backed up your use of the concept, and I described how phenotypic mutations are important in evolution.

Tell me something mark, if my priorities really consist in ridiculing and tearing down Christians, why is it that I was able to make your own case for you in one post more strongly than you were able to in five years?

You have never made my points for me, you rarely address them. You grossly misrepresent my views and then tear down the caricature of a creationist you contrive and conflate. The thing about you is that you ridicule the believing Christian while never so much as contradicting unbelievers. You are defending an atheistic philosophy whether or not you are a Christian, whether you like it or not, whether you want to admit it or not. You can't heap this kind of bitter opposition of God as creator and designer and honestly expect me not to wonder if God is more then an abstraction to you.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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shernren

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I have said repeatedly the a mutations is a failure of DNA repair. Your the one who asks all the questions and never defines his central and fulcrum terms.

If mutations are a failure of DNA repair, then no, transcript errors are not mutations.

During a transcript error, aka a phenotypic mutation, the DNA is not damaged. What happens is that entirely fine DNA gives a wrong RNA transcript, without at all ceasing to be entirely fine DNA. As such, after a transcript error, there simply isn't any damaged DNA to repair, much less a failure of DNA repair aka a mutation.

Of course, the DNA itself (particularly the untranscribed strand) can get bombed during the transcription. However that is not a transcript error because the transcript itself is (or will normally be) fine.

For a moment there I thought you had something, and then you had to snuff that hope out yourself.

(Also note that the paper often reduces to simply saying "mutations", without specifying whether the mutations involved are phenotypic or genetic. The context is often necessary to figure out which is which.)
 
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Assyrian

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At least I know where my theology comes from and why it's essential to causality and logic. By the way, still think an error during transcription is not a mutation?

dna-9a.jpg
Sorry Mark, you have me confused here. Why do you use an illustration of DNA replication when you are talking about transcription?
 
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shernren

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Sorry Mark, you have me confused here. Why do you use an illustration of DNA replication when you are talking about transcription?
Also, that picture was added after my post #91. I suppose he thinks I don't know what DNA replication is. Or something. You're confused after seeing one post; I've had to put up with five pages of this!

Also, here is a good review of Meyer's Signature in the Cell - respectful but still disagreeable. The opening and closing paragraphs are especially insightful:
I believe there is a Mind who was before all things and through whom all things are held together (Colossians 1:17): I believe that Mind is the intelligence behind all that exists in the universe. Hence, I believe in intelligent design. Does that by definition then, place me in the Intelligent Design (ID) movement?

No.

The recent book, Signature in the Cell
ir
, by ID movement leader Stephen C. Meyer, illustrates why. ...

There is no question that large amounts information have been created by materialistic forces over the past several hundred million years. Meyer dismisses this without discussing it. What about at the very beginning, 3.5 billion years ago? Everyone doing the science, Meyer notwithstanding, would say the jury is still out. There are some very elegant feasibility experiments going on at the present time. However, it is far too early for a philosopher to jump into the fray and declare no further progress will be made and that this science is now dead.

If the object of the book is to show that the Intelligent Design movement is a scientific movement, it has not succeeded. In fact, what it has succeeded in showing is that it is a popular movement grounded primarily in the hopes and dreams of those in philosophy, in religion, and especially those in the general public. With all due respect for the very fine people associated with the ID movement, many of whom I have met personally and whose sincerity I greatly appreciate, our hopes and dreams need to be much bigger than this. The science of origins is not the failure it is purported to be. It is just science moving along as science does—one step at a time. Let it be.
 
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gluadys

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I never said transcription errors were inheritable, I said they were mutations.



I have said repeatedly that mutations are a failure of DNA repair.


Mark

By your own definition then, a transcription error is not a mutation, since the error occurs in the mRNA not in the DNA and the DNA is in no need of repair.
 
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mark kennedy

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Sorry Mark, you have me confused here. Why do you use an illustration of DNA replication when you are talking about transcription?

Because the replication of DNA happens during transcription. Again, DNA-transcription-RNA-translation. Try to get it right next time.
 
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mark kennedy

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Very nice to see you again after all this time, just wanted to add that.

By your own definition then, a transcription error is not a mutation, since the error occurs in the mRNA not in the DNA and the DNA is in no need of repair.

No, that is not my definition. My definition is DNA-transcription-RNA-translation. Replication happens during transcription and a mutation is a failure of DNA repair, thus a transcription error. Now, the term is used other ways and refers to something going on with the messenger RNA but we have yet to discuss that because you guys never define your terms. That despite the fact you are forever telling me what I mean by mine.

Never the less, it is very nice to see you again gluadys, you have always been my favorite TE. You may well be the only one I am convinced actually believes the posts they are writing.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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Here we go again, are you just trying to make it easy so I'll get bored and quit?

If mutations are a failure of DNA repair, then no, transcript errors are not mutations.

Replication is part of the transcription process, it's the main event. There are cell cycle checks that make sure the DNA is being accurately transcribed or the cell does not happen, thus the term 'transcription'. What on earth would a mutation be except a failure of DNA repair?

During a transcript error, aka a phenotypic mutation, the DNA is not damaged. What happens is that entirely fine DNA gives a wrong RNA transcript, without at all ceasing to be entirely fine DNA. As such, after a transcript error, there simply isn't any damaged DNA to repair, much less a failure of DNA repair aka a mutation.

Ohhhh....so we are actually talking about two different things. There is transcription itself and the transcript error in another context. That's not a correction, you actually are misrepresenting what I'm talking about. I'm talking about transcription and you are playing semantical head games with phraseology.

Of course, the DNA itself (particularly the untranscribed strand) can get bombed during the transcription. However that is not a transcript error because the transcript itself is (or will normally be) fine.

A transcription error is a mutation and is referred to as such. You are talking about the completed transcript and never bothered to mention the context you are speaking of it in. That is not only a mistake, it's downright deceptive. Shame on you.

For a moment there I thought you had something, and then you had to snuff that hope out yourself.

I'm amazed at your audacity but not surprised since TEs do not hold one another accountable.

(Also note that the paper often reduces to simply saying "mutations", without specifying whether the mutations involved are phenotypic or genetic. The context is often necessary to figure out which is which.)

My point exactly, you never said squat about whether it was phenotypic or a part of the transcription process, thus convoluting the entire discussion.

Wise up, I know more then you give me credit for.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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