Infant baptism and baptismal regeneration

[CelticRebel]

These issues are two of the greatest obstacles to my becoming Orthodox.

Could I get some discussion on these topics from an Orthodox perspective?

 

[ArmyMatt]

what about them do you want to know?

 

[buzuxi02]

The mysteries of the Church are opened to all her adherents. Its not based on IQ levels. So whether an Infant or a person born with mental illness or retardation does not disqualify them from the body of Christ.

 

[CelticRebel]

what about them do you want to know?

Why are infants baptized?

If water baptism regenerates, where does faith come in?

Maybe that will get the conversation started.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why are infants baptized?

same reason infants were circumcised in the OT, you want them in the covenanted community as soon as possible. think again of the hospital. a baby does not need to know how the medicine works for it to work.

If water baptism regenerates, where does faith come in?

throughout that person's life. everyone everyday who has been baptized as a baby has the choice to walk away or walk toward God. faith is about a life lived in God, and that starts at baptism whenever that is.

 

[CelticRebel]

same reason infants were circumcised in the OT, you want them in the covenanted community as soon as possible. think again of the hospital. a baby does not need to know how the medicine works for it to work.



throughout that person's life. everyone everyday who has been baptized as a baby has the choice to walk away or walk toward God. faith is about a life lived in God, and that starts at baptism whenever that is.

Thank you for your answer.

I know that Presbyterians see infant baptism as parallel to circumcision but don't believe in baptismal regeneration, generally speaking. I have studied these doctrines from many denominational perspectives, but I wanted to get some thoughts directly from Orthodox members.

AM, do you believe, and do Orthodox believe, that a baby is spiritually reborn through water baptism?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you for your answer.

I know that Presbyterians see infant baptism as parallel to circumcision but don't believe in baptismal regeneration, generally speaking. I have studied these doctrines from many denominational perspectives, but I wanted to get some thoughts directly from Orthodox members.

we do. that is when one is truly born again to Christ (as He told St Nicodemus in John's Gospel).

 

[CelticRebel]

we do. that is when one is truly born again to Christ (as He told St Nicodemus in John's Gospel).

That belief would prevent me from being Orthodox, I think.

 

[gzt]

We say that as many as have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death and have been raised with Him and we also say that they have "put on Christ". We've certainly done something to them, and the Scriptures there seem to suggest that they've died and risen again with Christ, which seems to be a rebirth, as it were.

 

[buzuxi02]

Circumcision is just to show that infants were not excluded from the house of Israel. That membership is not individualistic, but collectively gathered under he who is the head of the household. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Faith and instruction is complimentary a lifelong process.. While modern day "wisdom" tells us parents should raise their kids with nothing and they can then choose from the myriad ideologies, this was not so from the beginning.

If you remember the first american fighter to join Al Quaeda was John Walker Lindh. A jew by birth he converted to Islam at age 16. His father rejecting the ancient command of God told media that he found his son's adventure of traveling and seeking out spirituality as "noble" endeavor.

Even psycologists agree that an interfaith couple should raise their child in just one faith. Because if they raise them in no faith in order for him to choose later in life or instead raise them in both in order to pick from two options later, the person will reject both.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That belief would prevent me from being Orthodox, I think.

well, it's the only way of entering the Church you see in Scripture and in history. so the idea that being born again is anything else is very modern.

 

[CelticRebel]

We say that as many as have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death and have been raised with Him and we also say that they have "put on Christ". We've certainly done something to them, and the Scriptures there seem to suggest that they've died and risen again with Christ, which seems to be a rebirth, as it were.

I don't see how spiritual rebirth can happen apart from personal faith.

 

[CelticRebel]

well, it's the only way of entering the Church you see in Scripture and in history. so the idea that being born again is anything else is very modern.

What I see in scripture is that personal faith is required for spiritual rebirth, for water baptism, and for entering the church.

 

[All4Christ]

What I see in scripture is that personal faith is required for spiritual rebirth, for water baptism, and for entering the church.

Household baptism was very common in the early church, as is evident in scripture. Faith is required, but whose? Only the person themselves, or can a parent have their child be baptized in account of the faith they have? "And as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord". "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, you and your household." "He was baptized, and all his household". I can't recall an account where those of age, or those who became believers in a household were baptized...The scripture talks about the entire household being baptized.

A clarification though - those who are baptized, even if baptized as an infant, must still choose to follow God. Faith is still required, on a personal level as well.

 

[CelticRebel]

Household baptism was very common in the early church, as is evident in scripture. Faith is required, but whose? Only the person themselves, or can a parent have their child be baptized in account of the faith they have? "And as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord". "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, you and your household." "He was baptized, and all his household". I can't recall an account where those of age, or those who became believers in a household were baptized...The scripture talks about the entire household being baptized.

A clarification though - those who are baptized, even if baptized as an infant, must still choose to follow God. Faith is still required, on a personal level as well.

I see one requirement for baptism in scripture -- personal faith, not the faith of parents, sponsors, or anyone else. And that applies to household baptisms, too.

I don't see how pouring water on someone, or submerging them in water, can bring about spiritual rebirth. I also don't see in scripture where proxy faith brought about spiritual rebirth, with or without water baptism.

I concur with your last paragraph.

 

[All4Christ]

I see one requirement for baptism in scripture -- personal faith, not the faith of parents, sponsors, or anyone else. And that applies to household baptisms, too. I don't see how pouring water on someone, or submerging them in water, can bring about spiritual rebirth. I also don't see in scripture where proxy faith brought about spiritual rebirth, with or without water baptism. I concur with your last paragraph.

Regarding spiritual rebirth and baptism -

Romans 6:3–4

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

 

[CelticRebel]

Regarding spiritual rebirth and baptism -

Romans 6:3–4

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

I don't see that as teaching spiritual rebirth by water baptism.

 

[All4Christ]

I don't see that as teaching spiritual rebirth by water baptism.

fair enough...bedtime for me now, I'll get better info tomorrow - I have the references but not memorized

 

[buzuxi02]

What I see in scripture is that personal faith is required for spiritual rebirth, for water baptism, and for entering the church.

St. John Chrysostom recognizes over 10 benefits of baptism, but the candidate does not require to be in need of all 10.

 

[buzuxi02]

I see one requirement for baptism in scripture -- personal faith, not the faith of parents, sponsors, or anyone else. And that applies to household baptisms, too.

I don't see how pouring water on someone, or submerging them in water, can bring about spiritual rebirth. I also don't see in scripture where proxy faith brought about spiritual rebirth, with or without water baptism.

I concur with your last paragraph.

Spiritual rebirth is a lifelong process, its called theosis or the aquisition of the Holy Spirit. Has nothing to do with once saved always saved. And the only way to aquire the Holy Spirit is within the church through baptism and chrismation, after that its up to you to rekindle and stir up the gift within you. The parable of the 10 virgins had nothing to do with age restrictions, all 10 began the race full of faith and grace but only five finished in that state. St Gregory Nazianzen who himself was baptised as an adult gave this magnificent homily on baptism with the following excerpts:

But are you afraid lest you should destroy the Gift, and do you therefore put off your cleansing, because you cannot have it a second time? What? Are you afraid of the danger in time of persecution, and of losing the most precious Thing you have— Christ? Would you then on this account avoid becoming a Christian? Perish the thought. Such a fear is not for a sane man; such an argument argues insanity. O incautious caution, if I may so! O trick of the Evil One! Truly he is darkness and pretends to be light; and when he can no longer prevail in open war, he lays snares in secret,...O man of God, do thou recognize the plots of your adversary; for the battle is against him that has, and it is concerned with the most important interests. Take not your enemy to be your counsellor; despise not to be and to be called Faithful. As long as you are a Catechumen you are but in the porch of Religion; you must come inside, and cross the court, and observe the Holy Things, and look into the Holy of Holies, and be in company with the Trinity.....Have you an infant child? Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Fearest thou the Seal on account of the weakness of nature? O what a small-souled mother, and of how little faith! Why, Anna even before Samuel was born promised him to God(1Sam 1.10), and after his birth consecrated him at once, and brought him up in the priestly habit, not fearing anything in human nature, but trusting in God. You have no need of amulets or incantations, with which the Devil also comes in, stealing worship from God for himself in the minds of vainer men. Give your child the Trinity, that great and noble Guard.(Oration 40 ch16&17)