Indigenous Peoples Day/Columbus Day?

For this holiday.....

  • I don't know the history, and support it being Indigenous Peoples Day.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I know the history, and support it being Indigenous Peoples Day.

    Votes: 21 70.0%
  • I don't know the history, and support it being Columbus Day

    Votes: 1 3.3%
  • I know the history, and support it being Columbus Day

    Votes: 4 13.3%
  • I don't know the history, and am unsure

    Votes: 1 3.3%
  • I know the history, and am unsure

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 10.0%

  • Total voters
    30
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Papias

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Today is Indigenous Peoples Day, or Columbus Day, or just a day, depending on where you live. The number of places changing to Indigenous peoples day is increasing, and so it might be interesting to discuss the holiday.

Columbus Day was made a United States holiday in 1937. Since then, about half of the states have also made it a state holiday. Recently, recognition of the history has led a growing number of locations to change it to Indigenous Peoples Day.

I didn't know the history until recently, as it isn't taught in schools. It turns out that from his own letters and those of his crew, in addition to other records, Columbus acted like many others of his time, as if the Native Americans were not humans with rights.

Upon finding little gold to take back as booty, he had hundreds of Native Americans kidnapped and taken as slaves on his first trip. Those that survived the trip back to Europe were sold as slaves. He then enacted a brutal plan to get gold, where Native Americans were required to bring in a certain amount of gold dust from local rivers or have their hand cut off and then worn around their neck as a warning to others. The killing and enslavement continued under his command, and over 100,000 Native Americans were killed or enslaved on the island within a few years under his rule.

Not only did he profit from capturing and selling slaves, but many of these slaves were sex slaves. He gave his officers Native American girls as sex slaves, and his own letters state he can get as much for a Native American sex slave as he can from selling a farm, with "those aged 9 or 10 years being in demand".

This and more makes me think of the stuff the Islamic State is doing. Here in America, we have a holiday celebrating someone who did all this, and then turn around and condemn the same actions done by the Islamic State? Wow.

Here's a site, though with all this being well known by historians, other references are easy to find too.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwo...-christopher-columbus-and-columbus-day-151653

I don't know about you, but much of this was a surprise to me. Though I used to think a holiday for Columbus was good, I don't think so any more. What about you?

In Christ-

Papias
 

Albion

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It's still Columbus Day because its a holiday because Congress has declared it to be Columbus Day. Any local organization can call it Indigenous People's Day or Popsicle Day or anything else but it's still Columbus Day.

By the way, yesterday was also declared a day of solidarity against the wearing of the burka in America, and all women were called on to refuse to wear one to show their support. It is reported that there was a widespread show of agreement on the part of American women by the attire they choose to wear yesterday!
 
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Red Fox

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Albion

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I didn't know the history until recently, as it isn't taught in schools. It turns out that from his own letters and those of his crew, in addition to other records, Columbus acted like many others of his time, as if the Native Americans were not humans with rights.
I'm guessing that you probably aren't in favor of Columbus being declared a saint by your church, either. It hasn't been done yet, but it's been urged by many in the church for some years now. And we know that Fr. Junipero Serra's canonization wasn't prevented because of his attitude towards the natives.

Here's an informative link from a similar thread now running on the OBOB forum:
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/columbia/detail/why-columbus-sailed.html
 
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Albion

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mmksparbud

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Yah--I never thought the Native Americans were happy to have been discovered by anyone--but Columbus taking of slaves would put him at the bottom of their list of favorite historical figures. I can't imagine any of them celebrating Columbus Day. Besides, he wasn't the first to discover this land. It was inevitable for the influx of other countries coming here in such numbers, but the way it happened is horrible.
 
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Albion

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Yah--I never thought the Native Americans were happy to have been discovered by anyone--but Columbus taking of slaves would put him at the bottom of their list of favorite historical figures. I can't imagine any of them celebrating Columbus Day. Besides, he wasn't the first to discover this land. It was inevitable for the influx of other countries coming here in such numbers, but the way it happened is horrible.
Columbus Day is what it is mainly because of the desire of the Italian-American population for recognition of their place in American life--and we know how important it is nowadays for every last ethnic group to have its culture celebrated by everyone else whether or not they care to.
 
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Papias

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Yah--I never thought the Native Americans were happy to have been discovered by anyone--but Columbus taking of slaves would put him at the bottom of their list of favorite historical figures.

It sounds like you are saying that only Native Americans would be concerned with his taking of slaves and genocide (because, I'd guess, the victims were Native American). Is that what you mean?

I have only a tiny trace of Native Ancestry, and I'm deeply troubled by those actions, regardless of the race of the victims. I'd be just as upset if the genocide victims were, say, Chinese. Do you only care about atrocities against humans if those humans are of your race?

I'm guessing that you probably aren't in favor of Columbus being declared a saint by your church, either.

Good guess. : )

I think saints should generally not include people who practice genocide, kidnap girls into sex slavery, nor those who mutilate and kill thousands of innocent people. But hey, I guess that's just me. Who's next, Saint Jeffry Dahmer?

I didn't hear your view - what do you think of Columbus' actions?

In Christ-

Papias
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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I read the history of Columbus's journeys from the time he landed to the time he died. He was a greedy man out for personal and professional gain. He did invade and was responsible for the enslavement and butchery of many innocents. What was even worse was the Church followed and did things in the name of Christ. We have no reason what-so-ever to celebrate him in any ways, shape or form.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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Well, as a Native American myself, I am all in favor of abolishing Columbus Day and ending the annual celebration of genocide committed against my ancestors.
You have my full and undivided support from me on this. My Friend.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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I think there's better Italians we can use to celebrate Italian culture in America without honoring a genocidal slave trader and pirate who got lost on his way to India.
 
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Albion

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I think saints should generally not include people who practice genocide, kidnap girls into sex slavery, nor those who mutilate and kill thousands of innocent people. But hey, I guess that's just me. Who's next, Saint Jeffry Dahmer?

I didn't hear your view - what do you think of Columbus' actions
Well, yours is one of the very few churches that declare people into heaven, so it doesn't affect me very directly. However, I think you'd find that link I included to be of interest. Let us know if reading it affects your thinking about Columbus at all.
 
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mmksparbud

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It sounds like you are saying that only Native Americans would be concerned with his taking of slaves and genocide (because, I'd guess, the victims were Native American). Is that what you mean?

I have only a tiny trace of Native Ancestry, and I'm deeply troubled by those actions, regardless of the race of the victims. I'd be just as upset if the genocide victims were, say, Chinese. Do you only care about atrocities against humans if those humans are of your race?



Good guess. : )

I think saints should generally not include people who practice genocide, kidnap girls into sex slavery, nor those who mutilate and kill thousands of innocent people. But hey, I guess that's just me. Who's next, Saint Jeffry Dahmer?

I didn't hear your view - what do you think of Columbus' actions?

In Christ-

Papias


Why does everyone like to read so much into things---I said, nor implied any such thing---vent your anger on someone else--I am of Hispanic/German descent with a little English thrown in--Other members of my family have all sorts of "races" in them--so pick a fight with someone else. I believe we are all of the "human race", created by God, in His image--period. Which means slavery of anybody, any color is objectionable--period. The OP is about Columbus and this Continent, which means the originals were more than likely considered Native Americans on Columbus's arrival --and that is how the question was answered. Good grief---perhaps a plate full of hot chilies might mellow you out. It's a natural pain killer and your kind of anger generally springs from pain--emotional or otherwise. Have a better day and I suggest you chill out before you answer any more posts.
 
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Papias

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However, I think you'd find that link I included to be of interest. Let us know if reading it affects your thinking about Columbus at all.

It is interesting - I didn't know about the Jerusalem connection.

Some thoughts -

I'm surprised that she states that Columbus "wanted the natives treated with respect", or that "his relationship with the natives tended to be benign.". Based on multiple contemporary sources including his own letters, it's clear that when he was in charge, hundreds of Natives were enslaved, and shipped back to Europe in such brutal conditions that about half of them died during the trip. Also under his watch were the horrendous acts described earlier, and many of us know of his writing in a letter that he gets a good price for girls aged 9 and 10 for sex slaves.

Based on that, it's hard to see how any sane person could describe that "benign". It makes me really question her descriptions there and elsewhere if she's willing to have that big a distortion in her writings. Add that to the fact that not only can we read for ourselves many of these contemporary sources, but other historians can too, and they are clear that this was atrocious.

Some of the contemporary, original sources can be read here: http://genius.com/Howard-zinn-chapter-1-columbus-the-indians-and-human-progress-annotated/


I don't doubt her on the Jerusalem connection - though I haven't heard of it before or of other historians views of it. She mentioned in the article that it was previously written of in journals, so it's probably pretty well supported. However, it doesn't help him much in my view. Even if the second coming is seen as a good goal, it seems blasphemous to think that God would be prevented by the Muslims owning Jerusalem, and arrogant to think that God was so impotent as to need our help in freeing Jerusalem.

Even if I consider his Jerusalem plans as a good thing (I don't), good ends would still not justify barbaric means.

Do her points change my views? A little, by adding the Jerusalem motivations. Do they significantly exonerate Columbus? No.

We've both had a chance now, to read original sources and links from different views. I still haven't heard what you think of Columbus' actions.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Black Dog

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Well, as a Native American myself, I am all in favor of abolishing Columbus Day and ending the annual celebration of genocide committed against my ancestors.

Do you find it hypocritical how some people can completely ignore the holocaust against the indigenous people of North America, yet if someone says anything against Israel, or the holocaust against Jews, these same people act as if only a monster could ignore or wash over such a thing?
 
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Papias

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Why does everyone like to read so much into things---I said, nor implied any such thing---vent your anger on someone else--...--so pick a fight with someone else. ....Good grief---perhaps a plate full of hot chilies might mellow you out. It's a natural pain killer and your kind of anger generally springs from pain--emotional or otherwise. Have a better day and I suggest you chill out before you answer any more posts.

Um, saying "their list" does imply that it's not your view. I don't see how anything in my response to you suggests "anger" or "picking a fight". What part of my response to you suggested I was angry or picking a fight?

Thanks-

In Christ-

Papias

P.S. - It good to hear that we agree that enslaving anyone is wrong. Did you vote in the poll? How did you vote?
 
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Albion

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What I think is that most of the dynamic figures in history are either saints or scoundrels, depending on whose opinion we consult or which day in the life of those historic figures we are looking at. In addition, we always put our own, contemporary, value systems into the lives of those people when making our judgments--a very risky thing to do. Hence, Lincoln freed the slaves, but he considered them to be racially inferior and said that he declared the Emancipation Proclamation only in order to save the Union, and that if he had seen it as possible to save the Union without freeing the slaves, he'd have done that instead. So do we celebrate him or not? That's just one example.
 
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Red Fox

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Do you find it hypocritical how some people can completely ignore the holocaust against the indigenous people of North America, yet if someone says anything against Israel, or the holocaust against Jews, these same people act as if only a monster could ignore or wash over such a thing?

Yes. I find it incredibly hypocritical, and ironic.
 
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Papias

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What I think is that most of the dynamic figures in history are either saints or scoundrels, depending on whose opinion we consult or which day in the life of those historic figures we are looking at. .

Indeed. Sometimes current figures as well.


In addition, we always put our own, contemporary, value systems into the lives of those people when making our judgments--a very risky thing to do.

True. By contemporary standards, no historical figure would be perfect. We have come so far in valuing people's rights that nearly anyone from the past looks worse. Data show that this is true in even the past 50 years, and that the "liberals" of the 1960's are more conservative on most issues than the "conservatives" are today.

However, one can look at where a historical figures views are in comparison to those of the day. Are they within average, or are they on the side of progress? That can be taken into consideration, in addition to the absolute position of the views.



Lincoln ....considered them to be racially inferior and said that he declared the Emancipation Proclamation only in order to save the Union,.. So do we celebrate him or not? That's just one example.

and a good example for this discussion. Lincoln also considered the best solution, given that he considered Africans racially inferior, was to ship them all back to Africa.

However, Lincoln was clearly far on the equality end of the spectrum of his day. And he did not do things that were morally abhorrent.

Neither of these are true of Columbus. He was, at best, in the middle for views of his day - perhaps on the bloodthirsty side, being that other contemporaries complained about his barbarity (as can be seen in the original sources). And his acts are indefensible.

That's why I don't defend his actions. Do you?

In Christ-

Papias
 
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