Incredible genealogies

[jereth]

The purpose of this thread is not to start another heated and bitter argument. I'd just like us to have a discussion about the genealogies found in Genesis.

Many Christians, since the time of Archbishop Ussher, have assumed that the earth is 6000 years old based on the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11. The assumption behind this calculation is that there are no gaps in the genealogies.

Some time ago I was challenged to construct a timeline based on the genealogies. When I did so, the results were very startling, and it forever changed the way I've looked at these genealogies.

In the diagram below, pink represents the pre-flood era, the red line is the year of the Flood, and green represents the post-flood era. The yellow region is the lifetime of Peleg, which according to Genesis 10 is the time that the Tower of Babel was built. The blue bars represent the lifespan of each man.

The implications:

• Adam’s life overlapped with the next eight listed generations, including Lamech (father of Noah)

• Seth (Adam’s son) lived for more than 50 years after Enoch was taken by God.
• Enosh (Adam’s grandson) was around for the first 84 years of Noah’s life.
• Methuselah was killed by the flood.
• Noah and Shem, both present aboard the ark, were still living at the time the Tower of Babel was built.
• The earth was divided (i.e. Babel) not only in the days of Peleg, but also in the days of Noah, Shem, Arpachshad, Shelah and Eber. If Babel occurred in the second half of Peleg’s life, then even Terah (Abraham’s father) would have been around at the time.
• Noah outlived not only Peleg, but also Nahor (Abraham’s grandfather). He was still alive when Abraham was born.
• Shem outlived Terah (Abraham’s father), as did the next three generations (Arpachshad, Shelah and Eber).
• If Abraham was born no later than Terah’s seventieth year (as indicated by Genesis 11:26), then he was outlived not only by Shem, but also by Shelah and Eber.
• Shem, son of Noah, was a contemporary of Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Esau!!!

Whenever I've read Genesis 1-12 (including when I was a YECist), I always was led to believe that the stories of Adam, Noah, Babel and Abraham each took place in totally different eras of history. It always felt like each of these events were separated by many lifetimes. Yet when we construct a chronology based on the genealogies, assuming there are no gaps, we find that in fact these events lie in very close proximity to each other, or even overlap (in terms of human lifetimes).

Can we take this as strong evidence that the genealogies are not meant to be taken at face value?

 

[ChetSinger]

Whenever I've read Genesis 1-12 (including when I was a YECist), I always was led to believe that the stories of Adam, Noah, Babel and Abraham each took place in totally different eras of history. It always felt like each of these events were separated by many lifetimes. Yet when we construct a chronology based on the genealogies, assuming there are no gaps, we find that in fact these events lie in very close proximity to each other, or even overlap (in terms of human lifetimes).

Can we take this as strong evidence that the genealogies are not meant to be taken at face value?

Cool chart, jereth.

I think that perhaps there's a difference in how Christians and Jews study these genealogies. I was brought up in a Lutheran church, and we never studied genealogies, or had a chart like you provided. Like you said, I also was left with the impression that everybody lived in separate eras.

But Jews seem to have spent much more time on it. Although I'm no expert on this stuff, there are Jewish stories that say that Shem killed Nimrod, and that Shem was Melchizedek.

As for me, I think the overlapping genealogies improve the case for the oral transmission of early bible history.

 

[Daniels]

good information.

 

[jereth]

Cool chart, jereth.

The wonders of Microsoft Excel

I think that perhaps there's a difference in how Christians and Jews study these genealogies. I was brought up in a Lutheran church, and we never studied genealogies, or had a chart like you provided.

Same here! It never ever occurred to me to construct a chart like this, until someone else suggested it.

Like you said, I also was left with the impression that everybody lived in separate eras.

It's interesting how the literary information can convey a very different sense from the mathematical data.

 

[Proselyte]

The purpose of this thread is not to start another heated and bitter argument. I'd just like us to have a discussion about the genealogies found in Genesis.

Many Christians, since the time of Archbishop Ussher, have assumed that the earth is 6000 years old based on the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11. The assumption behind this calculation is that there are no gaps in the genealogies.

Some time ago I was challenged to construct a timeline based on the genealogies. When I did so, the results were very startling, and it forever changed the way I've looked at these genealogies.

In the diagram below, pink represents the pre-flood era, the red line is the year of the Flood, and green represents the post-flood era. The yellow region is the lifetime of Peleg, which according to Genesis 10 is the time that the Tower of Babel was built. The blue bars represent the lifespan of each man.

The implications:

• Adam’s life overlapped with the next eight listed generations, including Lamech (father of Noah)

• Seth (Adam’s son) lived for more than 50 years after Enoch was taken by God.
• Enosh (Adam’s grandson) was around for the first 84 years of Noah’s life.
• Methuselah was killed by the flood.
• Noah and Shem, both present aboard the ark, were still living at the time the Tower of Babel was built.
• The earth was divided (i.e. Babel) not only in the days of Peleg, but also in the days of Noah, Shem, Arpachshad, Shelah and Eber. If Babel occurred in the second half of Peleg’s life, then even Terah (Abraham’s father) would have been around at the time.
• Noah outlived not only Peleg, but also Nahor (Abraham’s grandfather). He was still alive when Abraham was born.
• Shem outlived Terah (Abraham’s father), as did the next three generations (Arpachshad, Shelah and Eber).
• If Abraham was born no later than Terah’s seventieth year (as indicated by Genesis 11:26), then he was outlived not only by Shem, but also by Shelah and Eber.
• Shem, son of Noah, was a contemporary of Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Esau!!!

Whenever I've read Genesis 1-12 (including when I was a YECist), I always was led to believe that the stories of Adam, Noah, Babel and Abraham each took place in totally different eras of history. It always felt like each of these events were separated by many lifetimes. Yet when we construct a chronology based on the genealogies, assuming there are no gaps, we find that in fact these events lie in very close proximity to each other, or even overlap (in terms of human lifetimes).

Can we take this as strong evidence that the genealogies are not meant to be taken at face value?

Why do you suppose the scriptures would quote genealogies not to be taken at face value? Why not then list the supposed correct genealogies in the first place? It seems like a lot of trouble to record incorrect data, or data to be uncovered with a decoder at a future date. Or perhaps are you thinking the scriptures are in error? Or, could it be we don't have all the answers, and trying to interpret the data to fit our current world view of theories is also incorrect?

 

[Driver]

A few observations:

None of those pre-Flood ancestors (besides Noah) surivied the year of the Flood.

Enoch happened to have lived 365 years, which happens to match (approximately) to a solar day, except in years rather than days.

Lamech lived 777 years, Mathusela 969 years. It looks like they died in the year of the Flood (either by natural causes or in the Flood).

Enoch and Noah both are said in Scripture to have "walked with God".

 

[Driver]

It might also be added that Enoch is the only one not to have died, according to the Scripture's language.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
​

As compared with Lamech and Methusela, for instance:

Genesis 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

Genesis 5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
​

 

[Proselyte]

Lamech lived 777 years, Mathusela 969 years. It looks like they died in the year of the Flood (either by natural causes or in the Flood).

That is very interesting! That would actually seem to support the Flood story more than it does not.

 

[Driver]

That is very interesting! That would actually seem to support the Flood story more than it does not.

I totally agree!

 

[Mallon]

That is very interesting! That would actually seem to support the Flood story more than it does not.

Well, it indicates that the Torah is internally-consistent on this issue. But you can't use the Torah as evidence in support of the Torah.

 

[Driver]

Actually, after doing a further calculation, I came up with Lamech (who lived 777 years) dying 5 years before the Flood.

 

[Proselyte]

Well, it indicates that the Torah is internally-consistent on this issue. But you can't use the Torah as evidence in support of the Torah.

Good thing that I don't require evidence to prove my belief in the truth of the Bible.

 

[jereth]

Hi Proselyte

Why do you suppose the scriptures would quote genealogies not to be taken at face value?

Ancient genealogies worked differently from modern (Western) ones. The purpose was not so much to provide a precise and comprehensive chronological account as to supply evidence of a family-link to important ancestors. Thus it was quite normal for generations to be omitted. It is a well documented fact that the Biblical genealogies of Moses, Ezra and Jesus are abbreviated, with many generations missing. So why should it be a surprise if these far more ancient genealogies (pre-dating written records) are likewise abbreviated?

There are 10 generations from Adam to Noah, and 10 from Shem to Abraham. Do you think that is a coincidence?

Why not then list the supposed correct genealogies in the first place?

Several possible reasons:
A. Certain names were lost over the centuries of oral transmission.
B. Names were deliberately left out in order to make the lists shorter and thus easier to memorise
C. Names were consciously left out because the writer considered them superfluous

I suspect these mechanisms all played a part.

It seems like a lot of trouble to record incorrect data, or data to be uncovered with a decoder at a future date.

No one is suggesting tha the data is incorrect or encoded. Just incomplete.

Or perhaps are you thinking the scriptures are in error?

No. Being incomplete does not make a genealogy false. See Jesus' genealogy in Matthew 1. Do you consider Matthew in error because he missed out several names?

Or, could it be we don't have all the answers, and trying to interpret the data to fit our current world view of theories is also incorrect?

I would suggest that Ussher was the one in error when he "interpreted" the genealogical data in a way that clashes with their original purpose.

 

[jereth]

Enoch happened to have lived 365 years, which happens to match (approximately) to a solar day, except in years rather than days.

What is this significance of this, in your opinion?

 

[ChetSinger]

...Ancient genealogies worked differently from modern (Western) ones. The purpose was not so much to provide a precise and comprehensive chronological account as to supply evidence of a family-link to important ancestors. Thus it was quite normal for generations to be omitted. It is a well documented fact that the Biblical genealogies of Moses, Ezra and Jesus are abbreviated, with many generations missing. So why should it be a surprise if these far more ancient genealogies (pre-dating written records) are likewise abbreviated?...

I accept that when ancient genealogies state "was the son of" that they can mean "was the descendent of".

But in the case of the pre-flood and immediate post-flood genealogies, I think they're intended to be comprehensive. My reason is their wording, in which the record of births and deaths is specific to the year. For example:

"When Methuselah had lived a hundred and eighty-seven years, he became the father of Lamech. Methuselah lived after the birth of Lamech seven hundred and eighty-two years, and had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred and sixty-nine years; and he died."

Instead of being vague, the text seems to go out of its way to be specific.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that there are additional generations between Methuselah and Lamech, contained within that 187 year span between their two births. Even if that is granted, the total range of years from the creation of Adam to the flood would still be the same. And their amazingly long lifespans would still be the same.

 

[Driver]

What is this significance of this, in your opinion?

I'm not quite sure, but we find addtional information about Enoch in the book of Jude in the New Testament:

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The "judgment" mentioned in Jude 15 (in Enoch's day) could be in reference to the impending Flood.

365, if it ties in to a solar day, could be trying to tell us something about the impending judgment and the resurrection of believers.

 

[Willtor]

I'm not quite sure, but we find addtional information about Enoch in the book of Jude in the New Testament:

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The "judgment" mentioned in Jude 15 (in Enoch's day) could be in reference to the impending Flood.

365, if it ties in to a solar day, could be trying to tell us something about the impending judgment and the resurrection of believers.

The quote in Jude is a direct quote of the Book of Enoch (Enoch 1:9). The Book of Enoch was probably written in the second century, BC. Although some Churches, today, include this text in the deuterocanon, I don't think anybody thinks it was written by Enoch. In Jude, this is presented in the context of a number of judgments in which God saved a faithful few from perishing. It leads up to a warning against scoffers, dividers, and people following after their own lusts. It's not clear to me that reading Enoch's age into this is meaningful.

 

[Driver]

The quote in Jude is a direct quote of the Book of Enoch (Enoch 1:9). The Book of Enoch was probably written in the second century, BC. Although some Churches, today, include this text in the deuterocanon, I don't think anybody thinks it was written by Enoch. In Jude, this is presented in the context of a number of judgments in which God saved a faithful few from perishing. It leads up to a warning against scoffers, dividers, and people following after their own lusts. It's not clear to me that reading Enoch's age into this is meaningful.

Could the Book of Enoch have been quoting from Jude, who said this in the first place?

 

[Poke]

when we construct a chronology based on the genealogies, assuming there are no gaps, we find that in fact these events lie in very close proximity to each other, or even overlap (in terms of human lifetimes).

Can we take this as strong evidence that the genealogies are not meant to be taken at face value?

I haven't the slightest clue of how you reach your conclusion that "events lie in very close proximity" means that the genealogies are not to be taken at face value (whatever that means).

BTW, Creationists generally do not assert that there are no gaps.

 

[Willtor]

Could the Book of Enoch have been quoting from Jude, who said this in the first place?

No. The Book of Enoch is older than the Epistle of Jude. If I recall, a copy of Enoch was recovered from among the Dead Sea Scrolls.