Inconsistency Amongst Our Clergy/Hierarchs

Aug 27, 2012
2,126
573
United States of America
✟41,078.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Why is it that when someone with white supremacy/nationalistic beliefs get excommunicated (not that I necessarily disagree with that decision) for speaking publicly on a topic that could be considered going against the teachings of the Church, but...

People like Inga Leonova et al are allowed to speak publicly on a topic that is very much against the teachings of the Church, namely homosexual actions without any consequences?

Why this inconsistency from our clergy/hierarchs?
 

Kristos

Servant
Aug 30, 2006
7,379
1,068
Minnesota
✟37,552.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Why is it that when someone with white supremacy/nationalistic beliefs get excommunicated (not that I necessarily disagree with that decision) for speaking publicly on a topic that could be considered going against the teachings of the Church, but...

People like Inga Leonova et al are allowed to speak publicly on a topic that is very much against the teachings of the Church, namely homosexual actions without any consequences?

Why this inconsistency from our clergy/hierarchs?

Isn't the answer obvious?

The day is coming and is already here, when failure to embrace homosexuality as equal will result in persecution.
 
Upvote 0

InnerPhyre

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2003
14,573
1,470
✟71,967.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I don't know who Inga Leonova is, but if I had to guess, I would say that promoting immoral sexual behavior as normal doesn't get as much attention as literally beating people with a 3 barred cross in public because one is civilized (if wrong) and the other is blatantly anti-social.
 
  • Like
Reactions: seashale76
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I don't know who Inga Leonova is either, but in reading briefly about the other case, it seems the young man in question implied that the Orthodox Church supported his beliefs?

What I read from his priest seemed to say that because it was linked with the church in such a public way, the handling of the situation required public discipline, in order to make the church's stance understood.

Can that be a reason?
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,272
Central California
✟274,069.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The paradigm shift from Catholicism to Orthodoxy was hard for me regarding the whole catechism/set in stone approach of Catholicism going to Orthodoxy where your spiritual Father has so much say and input and involvement in morality.

Take one small example:

My children go to a private Lutheran school. My priest and deacon ripped me a new butt because I'm not sending my kids to private school. Both of them are opposed to private school and home-schooling, and extoll the virtues of witnessing to non-believers in the public system. It caused a painful exchange between my godfather (our deacon) and myself for a while. We forgave each other and tried to move on after that.

However, there was a couple that attended our parish for many years who moved back to the Midwest, Illinois. They have a priest who told them that, if humanly possible, they should put their little sons in A PRIVATE SCHOOL, PREFERABLY LUTHERAN!!! He said that he highly respected the Lutheran LCMS schools (the school my kids are in!!) system and that it was the easiest for an Orthodox Christian to navigate through with parental input and adjustments. He recommended going to the EXACT OPPOSITE approach of my priest!

So the question is, how much credibility should we give our "spiritual Father?" We know these guys are only human and subject to sin and bad advice just like the next man. They come with prejudices and opinions. Opinions are like, well, you know, and everybody has one! ^_^

Now where to put your children in school is a HUGE decision if you ask me. I am a teacher, and I know a lot about education. I know what to look for with standards and rigor, skills, discipline, leadership, and I know what to avoid. I have confidence in what is right for my children and in how my parenting plays into the equation. Why would one priest have such passionate anti-private and anti-home-schooling sentiments while another priest in the same communion feels the exact opposite with passion?

Fact is, the Spiritual Father aspect is still something that gives me a little pause. My priest, and I adore him incidentally, has given me some political, work, and education advice that I find to be WAY OFF.

For Catholics, things are always more black and white, so converting to Orthodoxy creates some grey areas to be sure.

At some point we have to wonder.

Anyway, my point is that I concur with the OP to some degree that our hierarchs are subject to human failures, so it makes one wonder...
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The paradigm shift from Catholicism to Orthodoxy was hard for me regarding the whole catechism/set in stone approach of Catholicism going to Orthodoxy where your spiritual Father has so much say and input and involvement in morality.

Take one small example:

My children go to a private Lutheran school. My priest and deacon ripped me a new butt because I'm not sending my kids to private school. Both of them are opposed to private school and home-schooling, and extoll the virtues of witnessing to non-believers in the public system. It caused a painful exchange between my godfather (our deacon) and myself for a while. We forgave each other and tried to move on after that.

However, there was a couple that attended our parish for many years who moved back to the Midwest, Illinois. They have a priest who told them that, if humanly possible, they should put their little sons in A PRIVATE SCHOOL, PREFERABLY LUTHERAN!!! He said that he highly respected the Lutheran LCMS schools (the school my kids are in!!) system and that it was the easiest for an Orthodox Christian to navigate through with parental input and adjustments. He recommended going to the EXACT OPPOSITE approach of my priest!

So the question is, how much credibility should we give our "spiritual Father?" We know these guys are only human and subject to sin and bad advice just like the next man. They come with prejudices and opinions. Opinions are like, well, you know, and everybody has one! ^_^

Now where to put your children in school is a HUGE decision if you ask me. I am a teacher, and I know a lot about education. I know what to look for with standards and rigor, skills, discipline, leadership, and I know what to avoid. I have confidence in what is right for my children and in how my parenting plays into the equation. Why would one priest have such passionate anti-private and anti-home-schooling sentiments while another priest in the same communion feels the exact opposite with passion?

Fact is, the Spiritual Father aspect is still something that gives me a little pause. My priest, and I adore him incidentally, has given me some political, work, and education advice that I find to be WAY OFF.

For Catholics, things are always more black and white, so converting to Orthodoxy creates some grey areas to be sure.

At some point we have to wonder.

Anyway, my point is that I concur with the OP to some degree that our hierarchs are subject to human failures, so it makes one wonder...

That is certainly something to think about.

The priest at the church I go to is planning for his wife to homeschool their children (in co-op it would seem), and there are a number of homeschool families in the church, I believe.

But I do see a lot of "grey area" - you're right. And the priest / spiritual father would seem to be the one to defer to and go to for advice?

I have not spoken to very many. I have of course watched the priest at our church very closely, seen how he interacts with people and why, and carefully weighed all the implications of that. I have done as much as possible with other priests as well. Not to sound like I do this in a bad way, but I need to evaluate the church for myself.

In every case, I have been very pleasantly surprised at the depth of understanding and the reasoning behind what is done. I have found, thus far, the reasoning behind the pastoral care in the church to be the most outstanding I have seen yet. (Which might not be quite as glowing a recommendation as it sounds, depending on one's opinion of what I've seen up until this point - which were a few excellent pastors, a few good ones, and quite a few poorer ones as well.) I was thinking that the church must have a very excellent program of preparing priests for their jobs.

Of course, they ARE human as you say, and we must keep that in mind. I do know of one person, known to me only online, who seems quite "questionable" in his way of saying things and in what he believes - he claims to be a monk-priest (hieromonk?), if he truly is.

With that being said though, I chose the church I am attending now very largely on the basis of how the priest interacted with me on first meeting. I spent a couple of hours with each of the local priests, and while I liked the other one just as well, I thought the one at the Greek church was just a better "fit", and the activity level of the church suited me better as well.

My experience of course is going to be a lot more limited than just about anyone else's. It's a helpful reminder.

I have a very hard time imagining Fr. M. (or Fr. D.) responding as you mentioned your priest having done over the choice of where to school one's children.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,553
3,534
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟240,029.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The paradigm shift from Catholicism to Orthodoxy was hard for me regarding the whole catechism/set in stone approach of Catholicism going to Orthodoxy where your spiritual Father has so much say and input and involvement in morality.

Take one small example:

My children go to a private Lutheran school. My priest and deacon ripped me a new butt because I'm not sending my kids to private school. Both of them are opposed to private school and home-schooling, and extoll the virtues of witnessing to non-believers in the public system. It caused a painful exchange between my godfather (our deacon) and myself for a while. We forgave each other and tried to move on after that.

However, there was a couple that attended our parish for many years who moved back to the Midwest, Illinois. They have a priest who told them that, if humanly possible, they should put their little sons in A PRIVATE SCHOOL, PREFERABLY LUTHERAN!!! He said that he highly respected the Lutheran LCMS schools (the school my kids are in!!) system and that it was the easiest for an Orthodox Christian to navigate through with parental input and adjustments. He recommended going to the EXACT OPPOSITE approach of my priest!

So the question is, how much credibility should we give our "spiritual Father?" We know these guys are only human and subject to sin and bad advice just like the next man. They come with prejudices and opinions. Opinions are like, well, you know, and everybody has one! ^_^

Now where to put your children in school is a HUGE decision if you ask me. I am a teacher, and I know a lot about education. I know what to look for with standards and rigor, skills, discipline, leadership, and I know what to avoid. I have confidence in what is right for my children and in how my parenting plays into the equation. Why would one priest have such passionate anti-private and anti-home-schooling sentiments while another priest in the same communion feels the exact opposite with passion?

Fact is, the Spiritual Father aspect is still something that gives me a little pause. My priest, and I adore him incidentally, has given me some political, work, and education advice that I find to be WAY OFF.

For Catholics, things are always more black and white, so converting to Orthodoxy creates some grey areas to be sure.

At some point we have to wonder.

Anyway, my point is that I concur with the OP to some degree that our hierarchs are subject to human failures, so it makes one wonder...
I've had two priests with differing views on this as well. My SF was ok with whatever we decided. The one priests we talked to around here in an Antiochian church was suggesting we move to another city (also get rid of our pets) so our boys could go to that school because nothing's more important than education. Both of the priests gave their opinions, not any official advice of what the Church teaches or believes. I admit, I was a bit offended by the latter priest's suggestions. His wife tried to assuage me saying her husband doesn't have a closeness to animals. Anyhow, maybe he was just trying to carry on a convo, but sometimes when I say I'm homeschooling, the moment of silence comes about and the looks of uncertainty start up. But, anyhow, I don't think getting rid of our pets and moving to another city after the long haul we made from CO so they can go to some great school because education is the most important thing....I don't think education is most important thing when such suggestions are put forth that are not realistic and would cause much pain in our family.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 27, 2012
2,126
573
United States of America
✟41,078.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I'm sorry but this tread is not about where we should send our kids to school. I would hardly put that issue anywhere remotely close to the public proclamation of racism and homosexuality and passing them off as Orthodox, while the 1st gets a severe response while the latter gets a free pass.

Please stay on topic
thanks
 
Upvote 0

Kristos

Servant
Aug 30, 2006
7,379
1,068
Minnesota
✟37,552.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm sorry but this tread is not about where we should send our kids to school. I would hardly put that issue anywhere remotely close to the public proclamation of racism and homosexuality and passing them off as Orthodox, while the 1st gets a severe response while the latter gets a free pass.

Please stay on topic
thanks

Interestingly there seems to be some (on progressive orthodox) that think the opposite is true - that racist get offs and homosexuals are punished....

It seems to me that there is actually quite a bit of "racism" tolerated in the Orthodox Church - it's just not by "whites" and now when it appears that way it's outrage. Hmm....

I did an honest self assessment last night with my wife and concluded that I am "racist", mainly against Somalis.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Racism is not about race. It is about our own hatred of parts of our own selves that we are unwilling to accept as coming from within ourselves. These "sins" of ours (our own negativity, misery, evil) are then blamed upon those whom we find most suitable to be made responsible for them, and then we aggressively seek to destroy the bearers of those sins so that we may be completely purged of them.

But Christ became our curse for us, once and for all, so why is it that we must still seek to sacrifice those other races, or the homosexuals, for that matter? Should we not rather take ownership of our own sins, and be cleansed of them via repentance?

Bishops are correct to speak out against the practice of "negative projection", whether it is against particular human races or against homosexuals. And if they use any authority that they may have to discipline members of the Church accordingly, then so be it.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 27, 2012
2,126
573
United States of America
✟41,078.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
"Bishops are correct to speak out against the practice of "negative projection", whether it is against particular human races or against homosexuals. And if they use any authority that they may have to discipline members of the Church accordingly, then so be it"

You're missing the point, please read again the original post:
 
Upvote 0

Joseph Hazen

The Religious Loudmouth
May 2, 2011
1,331
190
The Silent Planet
✟17,422.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If one is bothered by what they see as inconsistencies between hierarchs, rather than asking some random people on the internet "why?" they should write to the hierarchs. Why on earth should we know about the intentions and practices of others?

Better yet, why is the salvation of others any of our business? It seems that there are multiple threads on this forum right now about how X, Y, and Z are being done wrong by the bishops and priests and how, for some reason, this becomes our personal God-given podvig to correct them by writing about them on anonymous internet forums. Write the bishop if its any of your business (which it sometimes is) and if it isn't, guess where you should be looking?

Oh look, my plate is over there, where I left it.
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
The clergy is too scared to reprimand those that promote homosexuality because it's the new cool thing to be. The witchhunt by the secularists will turn on the Church. On the other hand unpopula racist talk is easy to punish as the popular opinion is on your side.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,553
3,534
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟240,029.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm sorry but this tread is not about where we should send our kids to school. I would hardly put that issue anywhere remotely close to the public proclamation of racism and homosexuality and passing them off as Orthodox, while the 1st gets a severe response while the latter gets a free pass.

Please stay on topic
thanks
Sorry. I'm glad the Bishop and the priest spoke and cleared up that particular issue. I don't know why some of our bishops don't speak out or reprimand as much on other issues that you mentioned. I am not familiar with the woman or heard her name before that you mentioned.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,272
Central California
✟274,069.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Nobody sought to to put the issue remotely close to the other, Greg. Chill, brother. I was simply making a point that these spiritual Fathers are human, and they are sometimes inconsistent among one another, and I used my education situation as ONE EXAMPLE. I never suggested we make this an education topic. I wouldn't call one poster's response to my post a total derailment.

Do you understand why I said what I did? Just a small microcosm of inconsistency. The racism and homosexuality thing is pretty glaring. I agree. But keep in mind that Orthodox hierarchs aren't very vocal anyway? I have been wishing they'd come out and condemn MANY THINGS in the U.S. The Catholic Church, until they got this liberal pope, were pretty good about blasting the secular humanist cult decisions in our country. I wish we did as well. And it seems odd to go after the softball, which is racism, and ignore the tough topic, sodomy and ssa.

I'm sorry but this tread is not about where we should send our kids to school. I would hardly put that issue anywhere remotely close to the public proclamation of racism and homosexuality and passing them off as Orthodox, while the 1st gets a severe response while the latter gets a free pass.

Please stay on topic
thanks
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,272
Central California
✟274,069.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Respectfully, why can't he pose the question in here? What's wrong with asking why there are inconsistencies? He can write the bishop AND talk in here about it, can't he? I don't see the problem. Several of us have voiced concerns that the hierarchs have been awful quiet during some big issues in this country morally going down. I think the issue of why a hierarch blasts one item and ignores another is a valid question. We don't want to make people feel like they can't ask questions in here. TAW often has that culture of reactionary blasting when someone asks a question or vents. I think people should be able to do both. In the past, if I just vented that I wish Orthodoxy were more aggressive in the church-building arena, the reaction TAW folks give me is, "Quit whining, dude! Don't worry about what priests are or are not doing! You get out and do something! What have you done to church-build, huh!?" kind of replies. They don't help much. Sometimes people just want to speculate a bit and analyze, not single-handedly try to save the world and what not. Hard telling, but I think the OP is just asking a simple question.

I can't even find my plate! ^_^:p

If one is bothered by what they see as inconsistencies between hierarchs, rather than asking some random people on the internet "why?" they should write to the hierarchs. Why on earth should we know about the intentions and practices of others?

Better yet, why is the salvation of others any of our business? It seems that there are multiple threads on this forum right now about how X, Y, and Z are being done wrong by the bishops and priests and how, for some reason, this becomes our personal God-given podvig to correct them by writing about them on anonymous internet forums. Write the bishop if its any of your business (which it sometimes is) and if it isn't, guess where you should be looking?

Oh look, my plate is over there, where I left it.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It also occurs to me that racism necessarily puts one against others. By definition, it IS a type of hate/despising.

Otoh, homosexuality is considered simply a struggle, isn't it? The church is opposed to sexual relations outside of marriage anyway, so a practicing homosexual would be sinning in the same sense people unmarried but having sex would be. But simply to find oneself with that struggle is not inherently sinful, according to the church, is it?

As I said, I know nothing about the person mentioned, but the two "crimes" could be looked at as being other-focused (a problem) or self-focused (a struggle, as we all must endure?)

Just wondering ...
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,272
Central California
✟274,069.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Very insightful, Kylissa!

It also occurs to me that racism necessarily puts one against others. By definition, it IS a type of hate/despising.

Otoh, homosexuality is considered simply a struggle, isn't it? The church is opposed to sexual relations outside of marriage anyway, so a practicing homosexual would be sinning in the same sense people unmarried but having sex would be. But simply to find oneself with that struggle is not inherently sinful, according to the church, is it?

As I said, I know nothing about the person mentioned, but the two "crimes" could be looked at as being other-focused (a problem) or self-focused (a struggle, as we all must endure?)

Just wondering ...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gzt

The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years
Jul 14, 2004
10,592
1,863
Abolish ICE
Visit site
✟116,222.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Well, if somebody gets on Frontline (national news!) as the new face of advocating people engage in homosexual behavior, dresses it up in the cross, and then shortly after converts to Orthodoxy, we can have that discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: seashale76
Upvote 0