In Saudi Prison, Artist Facing Death Says He's No Atheist

[LivingWordUnity]

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
NOV. 26, 2015, 11:30 A.M. E.S.T.

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — A Palestinian artist sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia for apostasy was quoted by a local news website Thursday as saying that he is not an atheist and that his case centers around a personal dispute he had with someone.

Source

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Religion in Saudi Arabia

Muslim (official; citizens are 85-90% Sunni and 10-15% Shia), other (includes Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, and Sikh) (2012 est.)

note: despite having a large expatriate community of various faiths (more than 30% of the population), most forms of public religious expression inconsistent with the government-sanctioned interpretation of Sunni Islam are restricted; non-Muslims are not allowed to have Saudi citizenship and non-Muslim places of worship are not permitted (2013)

Source:
CIA - The World Factbook

 

[seashale76]

non-Muslims are not allowed to have Saudi citizenship and non-Muslim places of worship are not permitted (2013)

That's racist. People shouldn't offend the non-Muslims over there in Saudi Arabia.

And- on the topic of the alleged apostate facing death (which is what the Islamic faith dictates for those that leave their faith)- that's really sad. However- does anyone expect anything different from that religion? I don't.

I notice we don't have the Islam defenders here going on about how this isn't Islam (well- at least not yet). It very much is. I live for the day when people will quit repeating that tired lie and stop fooling themselves.

 

[Oafman]

I notice we don't have the Islam defenders here going on about how this isn't Islam (well- at least not yet). It very much is. I live for the day when people will quit repeating that tired lie and stop fooling themselves.

It's not Islam in general. It's Wahhabism. You might have noticed that most Muslims do not execute apostates.

 

[essentialsaltes]

'not that there's anything wrong with that'

 

[GoldenBoy89]

And- on the topic of the alleged apostate facing death (which is what the Islamic faith dictates for those that leave their faith)- that's really sad. However- does anyone expect anything different from that religion? I don't.

No, I don't expect much wisdom out of ancient desert beliefs and superstition. People have learned a lot since then. Better to do away with those ancient forms of government altogether.

 

[seashale76]

It's not Islam in general. It's Wahhabism. You might have noticed that most Muslims do not execute apostates.

That's because most Muslims don't follow Islam as dictated in their holy book and the hadiths. Have you read the Quran? I have.

And- I know an apostate Muslim. She escaped an arranged marriage and married a non-Muslim. She changed her first and last name and moved as far as she could from her family out of fear for her life. Another Muslim friend of mine insinuated she should be killed for it. She'd never do it herself, of course, but she told me the local Muslim community was outraged over it.

Don't fool yourself. It's to their credit that most Muslims wouldn't actually kill anyone- but this action is part of their religious beliefs for apostates. You'd also need look no further than the testimonies of former Muslims anywhere on-line. No matter where they're from, they tend to keep their apostasy to themselves, out of fear for their lives.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It's not Islam in general. It's Wahhabism. You might have noticed that most Muslims do not execute apostates.

No, most do not execute, however, a very large number give their tacit approval as shown by their inaction against people who do commit these sorts of violent acts.

This is a scene right before they decided execute 4 people by throwing them off of a roof.

Are you suggesting that the thousands of people who gathered to watch the show and cheer "aren't real Muslims"?

This idea that "You're not an extremist as long as you don't actually swing the sword or pull the trigger yourself" is muddying the waters in terms of recognizing how pervasive some of these violent ideas are in some Muslim communities.

This notion that 'it's only a very small minority that hold these pernicious beliefs, the rest are all peace loving moderates' is a false one.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Ah Saudi Arabia. our favorite ally......

Why haven't we bombed these barbarians yet? It was a bunch of Saudis who committed the biggest act of terrorist on US soil.

oh yeah...

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Saudi Arabia has probably beheaded more people than ISIS and commit human atrocities on a daily basis, and nobody will do nothing to them ever. Their people fund and support just about every terrorist organizations across the globe and they teach people their BS version of Islam. Why do so many muslims believe as seahale and minichivi speak of? Because of the tireless efforts of Saudi arabia to spread their poison.

I will boldly state this: In the long term they are the biggest threat to the world. even bigger than ISIS.

 

[Oafman]

That's because most Muslims don't follow Islam as dictated in their holy book and the hadiths. Have you read the Quran? I have.

And- I know an apostate Muslim. She escaped an arranged marriage and married a non-Muslim. She changed her first and last name and moved as far as she could from her family out of fear for her life. Another Muslim friend of mine insinuated she should be killed for it. She'd never do it herself, of course, but she told me the local Muslim community was outraged over it.

Don't fool yourself. It's to their credit that most Muslims wouldn't actually kill anyone- but this action is part of their religious beliefs for apostates. You'd also need look no further than the testimonies of former Muslims anywhere on-line. No matter where they're from, they tend to keep their apostasy to themselves, out of fear for their lives.

I judge people on their actions, not the contents of their holy book. Religious texts are a buffet, from which you choose the parts you want to follow. This is as true of Christianity as it is of Islam. If it wasn't, we'd have slaves, bomb attacks on divorce courts and stonings for those wearing mixed fabrics. The reasonable majority of every religion ignores the immoral parts, and those commands which are unsuitable for the 21st century. Sadly, Wahhabis follow just about every command, no matter how crazy. Like I said, this is Wahhabism, not Islam in general.

No, most do not execute, however, a very large number give their tacit approval as shown by their inaction against people who do commit these sorts of violent acts.

This is a scene right before they decided execute 4 people by throwing them off of a roof.

Are you suggesting that the thousands of people who gathered to watch the show and cheer "aren't real Muslims"?

This idea that "You're not an extremist as long as you don't actually swing the sword or pull the trigger yourself" is muddying the waters in terms of recognizing how pervasive some of these violent ideas are in some Muslim communities.

This notion that 'it's only a very small minority that hold these pernicious beliefs, the rest are all peace loving moderates' is a false one.

So, I point out that most Muslims are too reasonable, and are not such Koranic literalists, that they could ever countenance violence for apostasy. And in response, you post a picture from Raqqa?!

I wasn't talking about Muslims living under IS. I meant the hundreds of millions in places like India, or Indonesia, or many others, including western countries. Murder motivated by someone declaring they've left Islam is extremely rare in such places, and is certainly not done by the state, as it is in Wahhabi Saudi Arabia.

It is idiotic to draw conclusions about hundreds of millions of people based on the actions of a minority of them. Regardless of the stuff in the book which hardly any of them act on, and regardless of the fact that people in Raqqa, or in almost-as-crazy Saudi, turn up to provide tacit approval. Like I said, this is Wahhabism, not Islam in general.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I wasn't talking about Muslims living under IS. I meant the hundreds of millions in places like India, or Indonesia, or many others, including western countries. Murder motivated by someone declaring they've left Islam is extremely rare in such places, and is certainly not done by the state, as it is in Wahhabi Saudi Arabia.

It is idiotic to draw conclusions about hundreds of millions of people based on the actions of a minority of them. Regardless of the stuff in the book which hardly any of them act on, and regardless of the fact that people in Raqqa, or in almost-as-crazy Saudi, turn up to provide tacit approval. Like I said, this is Wahhabism, not Islam in general.

I also mentioned Muslims living in western societies in other posts as well...

You said that you pointed out that "most muslims are reasonable"...what's your definition of 'most' and 'reasonable'.

In UK, over 60% said that insulting their faith should be a codified crime warranting prosecution.

I acknowledged that most don't engage in violent activities...however, that doesn't make a person 'reasonable' by default. There's a lot of horrible things you can do to other people apart from actual physical violence.

 

[AionPhanes]

Saudi Arabia spends millions to export their right wing interpretation of Islam. They will go into areas where more moderate forms of Islam are common and flood the market with their propaganda and build schools to teach their uber-conservative nonsense. A lot of the free Islamic materials you see handed out here in the states are funded and paid for by Saudi Arabia. We should kick them to the curb as allies.

 

[ranunculus]

Are you suggesting that the thousands of people who gathered to watch the show and cheer "aren't real Muslims"?

This idea that "You're not an extremist as long as you don't actually swing the sword or pull the trigger yourself" is muddying the waters in terms of recognizing how pervasive some of these violent ideas are in some Muslim communities.

Does that make all the people who support Ted Cruz or Mike Huckabee extremists since they attended an event where pastor Kevin 'roll in manure' Swanson called for the execution of gays?

youtube link

Or was his call for death “not explicit enough" to warrant that label?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

It's not Islam in general. It's Wahhabism. You might have noticed that most Muslims do not execute apostates.

Saudi Arabia is to Muslims what Rome is to Catholics. Have there ever been any large-scale protests of Saudi Arabia's interpretation of Islam by Sunni Muslims?

"Some critics may object that this account of Islam in the modern world does not pay much attention to Islamic moderation, to the everyday wish of everyday Muslims for a quiet life. This is not because such moderates are rare, but because they are rarely important. Religions, like political ideologies, are pushed along by money, power, and tiny vocal minorities. Within Islam, the money and the power are all pushing the wrong way. So are the most active minorities. The urgent need is to recognize this. Our problem is not prejudice about Islam, but folly in the face of its violence and cruelty. And in any case, the willingness of moderates to be what are objectively bad Muslims, because they reject key teachings of historical Islam, may be laudable in human terms but does nothing to modify Islam as a doctrine." - Serge Trifkovic

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Does that make all the people who support Ted Cruz or Mike Huckabee extremists since they attended an event where pastor Kevin 'roll in manure' Swanson called for the execution of gays?

youtube link

Or was his call for death “not explicit enough" to warrant that label?

There's a difference between a blowhard pastor shooting off at the mouth, and an actual killing. So they're not extremists in the same sense...I doubt Cruz would be taking his kids to go watch people get tossed off a building.

However, in the interest of being consistent, Cruz & Huckabee aren't moderates in my book either.

If we were to have a scale where 0=moderate 10=extremist

The guys actually physically tossing people off the building would be a 10
The people who would enjoy going (and taking their kids) to watch that would be a 7-8
A guy like Kevin Swanson would be a 5-6
The people would would enjoy listening to Swanson would be a 3-4

However, as I stated before, the weak standard some on the left use to define what a 'moderate' is when discussing islam, the Muslim equivalent of a Ted Cruz would be called a 'Moderate' by the left in our country.

 

[AionPhanes]

Saudi Arabia is to Muslims what Rome is to Catholics. Have there ever been any large-scale protests of Saudi Arabia's interpretation of Islam by Sunni Muslims?

I don't think that's an accurate comparison. Rome is the seat of an infallible patriarch who has absolute jurisdictional control over Roman Catholics and who also has the power to single handedly define dogma. Saudi Arabia, and the Muslims there, have no special institutional power over Sunni Muslims. A Muslim from say Jordan, Pakistan, etc... who has earned the respect of others can have all the power of influence or more that a Saudi happens to posses.

In fact of the four schools of Sunni Islamic Jurisprudence only 1 school, Hanabali (the smallest of the four schools) dominates Saudi Arabia and those outside that school wouldn't even look to members of that school for guidance in jurisprudence. Nor would those who follow the more traditional interpretation of said school follow the "reformed" more puritanical extremist interpretation often called "Wahhabism" that is, unfortunately, fairly popular in SA.

Yes, Saudi Arabia does have a lot of money and a powerful propaganda machine so they can win a good deal of influence but it isn't based on any sort of religious requirement. In other words the religion doesn't grant them any sort of special status.

 

[He is Risen 72]

Source

I didn’t read anything in that article that sated he was a Christian. If you don’t worship the risen Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, well, you are an atheist.

 

[AionPhanes]

I didn’t read anything in that article that sated he was a Christian. If you don’t worship the risen Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, well, you are an atheist.

You're making up your own definition for the term atheist rather than using the accepted dictionary defenition here it seems..

 

[He is Risen 72]

You're making up your own definition for the term atheist rather than using the accepted dictionary defenition here it seems..

Jesus Christ is God, is He not?