I'm Totally Depraved

[jimmyjimmy]

Many of my friends have no problem thinking that about me, but fewer think it of mankind.

Does mankind, after the fall of Adam, suffer from what is referred to as, "total depravity" or not?

What is total depravity and why or why not is it a vital Christian doctrine?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Total Depravity

Virtually every church historically that has a creed or a confession has agreed that something very serious happened to the human race as a result of the first sin—that first sin resulted in original sin. That is, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, the entire human race fell, and our nature as human beings since the fall has been influenced by the power of evil. TULIP and Reformed Theology: Total Depravity​

 

[Jeshu]

Many of my friends have no problem thinking that about me, but fewer think it of mankind.

Does mankind, after the fall of Adam, suffer from what is referred to as, "total depravity"?

What is total depravity and why or why not is it a vital Christian doctrine?

As someone brought up an Calvinist I have now great problems with this teaching as often taught for it is often but the teaching of man and not what the word of God says.

Let us examine how many times the word righteous, doing good, right is used, why would God use those terms if no one has ever been righteous or has no ability to do right?

If this where biblical then Romans 2:12-16 is nonsense it seems to me.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Also the O.T has plenty of reverence to the righteous, so obviously they must be around at times. Just think about God boasting about Job - he was righteous though we all know still also a sinner in need of grace.

I think Isaiah 57:1-4 sums it up very nicely.

The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.
“But you—come here, you children of a sorceress,
you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes!
Who are you mocking?
At whom do you sneer
and stick out your tongue?
Are you not a brood of rebels,
the offspring of liars?

Clearly the Word teaches that we are born righteous spirits placed in corrupted flesh - just see Acts 18:27 and Psalm 51:5 respectively to confirm both these conditions.

Furthermore we should not forget that God is always first, He says Himself 'I'm the Alpha and Omega' - in our lives this is true as well. Just read Psalm 139 and know this speaks true about all His children. But sadly sin dwelling down here comes through our flesh, satan and the world around us, and constantly kills His/our good life within us, and so we die true people and become untrue - time and again - and stand condemned as Christ killers, for He is the life of us all.

However every day God's mercies are new and every day we get new chances to walk in His Spirit - truthfully loving to be or to continue being untrue and corrupt, as our fleshly egos demand we are and ought to behave.

This way we can only be truthfully loving in part, for we will always fail to be perfect for our flesh, satan and this world have made sure of that through our flesh.

So yes we are ultimately totally corrupt as sinners down here for from ourselves no good things come, only through God's Spirit can we do good things. Only Jesus can work good in people. Now everyone has life in God every day all day long and sadly everyone corrupts it in part if not totally.

So yes it is true we need Jesus to be perfect, or be foolish and think we can be 100 percent true in our own right. For 100 percent true remains not otherwise. Yet for as long as we carry flesh very little chance of perfection, yet paradoxically all of us can be truthfully loving at any time, so all of can be righteous at any time, but we are bound by our sinful nature much more than by our desire to be and do right - this has been the sad tale of humanity everywhere. (Though some cultures have stuffed up much more than others with regard to this.)

Peace

 

[truefiction1]

No.

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

Many of my friends have no problem thinking that about me, but fewer think it of mankind.

Does mankind, after the fall of Adam, suffer from what is referred to as, "total depravity"?

What is total depravity and why or why not is it a vital Christian doctrine?

Are you asking if your depraved or all of mankind? Shall we play we are saved,mankind is not? I have played this game before,it is the way I climb upon my high horse, shall we not bother and put our righteous horses back in the stables?

 

[brinny]

Many of my friends have no problem thinking that about me, but fewer think it of mankind.

Does mankind, after the fall of Adam, suffer from what is referred to as, "total depravity"?

What is total depravity and why or why not is it a vital Christian doctrine?

Perhaps it depends on whether "sin" is partial depravity?

If so, which "part" of sin is NOT depraved?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Perhaps it depends on whether "sin" is partial depravity?

If so, which "part" of sin is NOT depraved?

Interesting.

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

Interesting.

Shall we await your wordy reply full of scripture and self satisfying proxy.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Are you asking if your depraved or all of mankind? Shall we play we are saved,mankind is not? I have played this game before,it is the way I climb upon my high horse, shall we not bother and put our righteous horses back in the stables?

If you read the OP I think it's clear. I had a little fun with the title, as I sometimes do. Humor is good, though sometimes depraved, and always requiring the ability to laugh.

I have no idea what the second part of your post means.

 

[brinny]

Interesting.

It would be an excellent subject for a study.

 

[brinny]

If you read the OP I think it's clear. I had a little fun with the title, as I sometimes do. Humor is good, though sometimes depraved, and always requiring the ability to laugh.

I have no idea what the second part of your post means.

The voting options are limited.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It would be an excellent subject for a study.

A different angle than usual. . .

 

[brinny]

A different angle than usual. . .

What would be a different angle? The study?

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

Am I guilty of attacking this mans beliefs ? Or am I demonstrating a difference of opinion. Should I ask a question if it does not fit in with the beliefs of others on this forum. Is it depravity to question a mans credibility his authority?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

What would be a different angle? The study?

No. Your previous post.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The voting options are limited.

That's intentional.

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

If you read the OP I think it's clear. I had a little fun with the title, as I sometimes do. Humor is good, though sometimes depraved, and always requiring the ability to laugh.

I have no idea what the second part of your post means.

Are you feeling defensive? It looks to me like you already knew the answer to your question before You even started your wordy debate. Why the misleading question ? Shall we trick the unfaithful into listening ?

 

[brinny]

That's intentional.

LOL!

Alas, i cannot vote then.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

LOL!

Alas, i cannot vote then.

Come on. Throw me a bone.

 

[brinny]

Come on. Throw me a bone.

Unfortunately, neither option fits.