I'm lost please help me and answer me

[lost9933]

I have been Christian all the time, but before a few days I just started thinking on God appearing in flesh in a logical way and now I just can't be convinced that it's possible for god to appear in flesh even if he can do anything but how the great, unseen, unlimited god who created the heaven and earth and every single creature would take a flesh and be born from a woman !!

I just find this not logical ! I'm now losing my faith because of these thoughts
I know god loves us but I just can't be convinced that he did so ! i think god only communicate with us by sending prophets and scriptures but god appearing in flesh seems to me not logical

it's like god appear in an ant (because according to the unlimited god we are a very tiny small creature even if we are better than ants and animals but still we are nothing according to him ! )

please help me I just wish I can be convinced and return back to my faith !!

thank you

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Actually God appearing in the flesh is THE MOST logical thing God could ever do!

Mankind sinned in the The Garden, and fell into death. Before Adam and Eve's great sin, there was no death. The human body was in a higher state of existence, holiness, and glory. All of nature was in a profoundly different state. Humanity was altered that day with the Original Sin, and thanks to this alteration we have disease, illness, perversions, deceit, jealousy, mental illness, same-sex attraction, and a massive litany of other ailments of the body and mind.

Death was the ultimate unnatural malady that stemmed from the Original Sin.

For God to something as AWESOME as save our bodies and souls, He had to BECOME like us. When Christ took on human flesh, He joined complete humanity to complete divinity. In Christ NOTHING is lacking. He is perfect. He joined His perfection and touched humanity in an intimate way that completely reboots our existence.

The Lord took on human flesh, joined His divinity to it, took this Divine Body and Soul into the mouth of Hades itself, and hell could not contain it. Jesus conquered death with death and bestowed life to those in the tombs.

You're making the Incarnation about speaking to us and teaching us. That is only ONE facet of the Incarnation. Jesus becoming flesh is about him being FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN at the same time to perfect humanity and beat death for us. In our baptism, we participate in that divine and also human life with Christ and will beat death in Him as well.

God chose to make Himself like us and yet at the same time fully as Himself in order to touch humanity and reboot us to what we were always supposed to be--immortal and growing in theosis.

The Incarnation is not just about God talking to us, it's about God WORKING through us. It's about the Cross, the Tomb, life and death....not just about coming here to preach. That is another aspect of Christ's mission here.

If you can believe God exists, speaks through prophets, and has done all these awesome deeds, why would an omnipotent and prescient, all-powerful God be unable to condescend to our humanity and join with us?

In fact, it is the Incarnation that makes our religion unique and more beautiful and obviously True than the other religions that worship a distant, cold, detached God. Our God has dwelled among us, and lives in us through baptism, and we partake of His Body and Blood each Divine Liturgy....and through this Holiest of Communions, we live that fully God fully Man nature of God through a mystery.....

Focus on life and death, salvation and seeing God in these terms, not in such cynical skepticism and just prophesy and teaching.

 

[ryND]

Actually God appearing in the flesh is THE MOST logical thing God could ever do!

Mankind sinned in the The Garden, and fell into death. Before Adam and Eve's great sin, there was no death. The human body was in a higher state of existence, holiness, and glory. All of nature was in a profoundly different state. Humanity was altered that day with the Original Sin, and thanks to this alteration we have disease, illness, perversions, deceit, jealousy, mental illness, same-sex attraction, and a massive litany of other ailments of the body and mind.

Death was the ultimate unnatural malady that stemmed from the Original Sin.

For God to something as AWESOME as save our bodies and souls, He had to BECOME like us. When Christ took on human flesh, He joined complete humanity to complete divinity. In Christ NOTHING is lacking. He is perfect. He joined His perfection and touched humanity in an intimate way that completely reboots our existence.

The Lord took on human flesh, joined His divinity to it, took this Divine Body and Soul into the mouth of Hades itself, and hell could not contain it. Jesus conquered death with death and bestowed life to those in the tombs.

You're making the Incarnation about speaking to us and teaching us. That is only ONE facet of the Incarnation. Jesus becoming flesh is about him being FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN at the same time to perfect humanity and beat death for us. In our baptism, we participate in that divine and also human life with Christ and will beat death in Him as well.

God chose to make Himself like us and yet at the same time fully as Himself in order to touch humanity and reboot us to what we were always supposed to be--immortal and growing in theosis.

The Incarnation is not just about God talking to us, it's about God WORKING through us. It's about the Cross, the Tomb, life and death....not just about coming here to preach. That is another aspect of Christ's mission here.

If you can believe God exists, speaks through prophets, and has done all these awesome deeds, why would an omnipotent and prescient, all-powerful God be unable to condescend to our humanity and join with us?

In fact, it is the Incarnation that makes our religion unique and more beautiful and obviously True than the other religions that worship a distant, cold, detached God. Our God has dwelled among us, and lives in us through baptism, and we partake of His Body and Blood each Divine Liturgy....and through this Holiest of Communions, we live that fully God fully Man nature of God through a mystery.....

Focus on life and death, salvation and seeing God in these terms, not in such cynical skepticism and just prophesy and teaching.

Beautifully stated ...
Sums it up perfectly for me.

 

[lost9933]

Actually God appearing in the flesh is THE MOST logical thing God could ever do!

Mankind sinned in the The Garden, and fell into death. Before Adam and Eve's great sin, there was no death. The human body was in a higher state of existence, holiness, and glory. All of nature was in a profoundly different state. Humanity was altered that day with the Original Sin, and thanks to this alteration we have disease, illness, perversions, deceit, jealousy, mental illness, same-sex attraction, and a massive litany of other ailments of the body and mind.

Death was the ultimate unnatural malady that stemmed from the Original Sin.

For God to something as AWESOME as save our bodies and souls, He had to BECOME like us. When Christ took on human flesh, He joined complete humanity to complete divinity. In Christ NOTHING is lacking. He is perfect. He joined His perfection and touched humanity in an intimate way that completely reboots our existence.

The Lord took on human flesh, joined His divinity to it, took this Divine Body and Soul into the mouth of Hades itself, and hell could not contain it. Jesus conquered death with death and bestowed life to those in the tombs.

You're making the Incarnation about speaking to us and teaching us. That is only ONE facet of the Incarnation. Jesus becoming flesh is about him being FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN at the same time to perfect humanity and beat death for us. In our baptism, we participate in that divine and also human life with Christ and will beat death in Him as well.

God chose to make Himself like us and yet at the same time fully as Himself in order to touch humanity and reboot us to what we were always supposed to be--immortal and growing in theosis.

The Incarnation is not just about God talking to us, it's about God WORKING through us. It's about the Cross, the Tomb, life and death....not just about coming here to preach. That is another aspect of Christ's mission here.

If you can believe God exists, speaks through prophets, and has done all these awesome deeds, why would an omnipotent and prescient, all-powerful God be unable to condescend to our humanity and join with us?

In fact, it is the Incarnation that makes our religion unique and more beautiful and obviously True than the other religions that worship a distant, cold, detached God. Our God has dwelled among us, and lives in us through baptism, and we partake of His Body and Blood each Divine Liturgy....and through this Holiest of Communions, we live that fully God fully Man nature of God through a mystery.....

Focus on life and death, salvation and seeing God in these terms, not in such cynical skepticism and just prophesy and teaching.

That's nice I know that ! but I don't know we are according to god a very limited creature according to his unlimited nature!

can god appears in an ant ? you will say yes but it's not logical and god doesn't do something which dishonors his nature

the same as human !! we are like any other creature ,, we are limited

i find it a dishonor for god to take a human flesh and be born from a woman!!
how can the divinity fill a human body and inside mother mary's body !!

 

[Lukaris]

Without the salvation of Jesus Christ we suffer in this world:


Romans 5:12-15New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.



رومية 5 : 12-15Previous Chapter | Entire Chapter | Next Chapter
12 مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَأَنَّمَا بِإِنْسَانٍ وَاحِدٍ دَخَلَتِ الْخَطِيَّةُ إِلَى الْعَالَمِ وَبِالْخَطِيَّةِ الْمَوْتُ وَهَكَذَا اجْتَازَ الْمَوْتُ إِلَى جَمِيعِ النَّاسِ إِذْ أَخْطَأَ الْجَمِيعُ. 13 فَإِنَّهُ حَتَّى النَّامُوسِ كَانَتِ الْخَطِيَّةُ فِي الْعَالَمِ. عَلَى أَنَّ الْخَطِيَّةَ لاَ تُحْسَبُ إِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ نَامُوسٌ. 14 لَكِنْ قَدْ مَلَكَ الْمَوْتُ مِنْ آدَمَ إِلَى مُوسَى وَذَلِكَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُخْطِئُوا عَلَى شِبْهِ تَعَدِّي آدَمَ الَّذِي هُوَ مِثَالُ الآتِي. 15 وَلَكِنْ لَيْسَ كَالْخَطِيَّةِ هَكَذَا أَيْضاً الْهِبَةُ. لأَنَّهُ إِنْ كَانَ بِخَطِيَّةِ وَاحِدٍ مَاتَ الْكَثِيرُونَ فَبِالأَوْلَى كَثِيراً نِعْمَةُ اللهِ وَالْعَطِيَّةُ بِالنِّعْمَةِ الَّتِي بِالإِنْسَانِ الْوَاحِدِ يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحِ قَدِ ازْدَادَتْ لِلْكَثِيرِينَ.
رومية 5 : 12-15





The redemption from the Lord was prophesied by Isaiah (see Isaiah 53 from this link: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+53&version=NKJV

Know that Jesus Christ the Word is God:
John 1:1-5New King James Version (NKJV)

The Eternal Word

[FONT='Helvetica Neue', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.[/font]
Footnotes:

• John 1:5 Or overcome

يوحنا 1 : 1-5Entire Chapter | Next Chapter
1 فِي الْبَدْءِ كَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ وَالْكَلِمَةُ كَانَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَكَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ اللَّهَ. 2 هَذَا كَانَ فِي الْبَدْءِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ. 3 كُلُّ شَيْءٍ بِهِ كَانَ وَبِغَيْرِهِ لَمْ يَكُنْ شَيْءٌ مِمَّا كَانَ. 4 فِيهِ كَانَتِ الْحَيَاةُ وَالْحَيَاةُ كَانَتْ نُورَ النَّاسِ 5 وَالنُّورُ يُضِيءُ فِي الظُّلْمَةِ وَالظُّلْمَةُ لَمْ تُدْرِكْهُ.
يوحنا 1 : 1-5





Note that God became one of us to heal us within our human framework except He was without sin.

John 1:14New King James Version (NKJV)

The Word Becomes Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

يوحنا 1 : 14Entire Chapter | Next Chapter
14 وَالْكَلِمَةُ صَارَ جَسَداً وَحَلَّ بَيْنَنَا وَرَأَيْنَا مَجْدَهُ مَجْداً كَمَا لِوَحِيدٍ مِنَ الآبِ مَمْلُوءاً نِعْمَةً وَحَقّاً.
يوحنا 1 : 14




He calls us by faith & to imitate Him by good works:

Ephesians 2:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

افسس 2 : 8-10Previous Chapter | Entire Chapter | Next Chapter
8 لأَنَّكُمْ بِالنِّعْمَةِ مُخَلَّصُونَ، بِالإِيمَانِ، وَذَلِكَ لَيْسَ مِنْكُمْ. هُوَ عَطِيَّةُ اللهِ. 9 لَيْسَ مِنْ أَعْمَالٍ كَيْلاَ يَفْتَخِرَ أَحَدٌ. 10 لأَنَّنَا نَحْنُ عَمَلُهُ، مَخْلُوقِينَ فِي الْمَسِيحِ يَسُوعَ لأَعْمَالٍ صَالِحَةٍ، قَدْ سَبَقَ اللهُ فَأَعَدَّهَا لِكَيْ نَسْلُكَ فِيهَا.
افسس 2 : 8-10

 

[Lukaris]

We dishonor God by not believing that He wants us to be saved.


John 3:16-20New King James Version (NKJV)

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.


6 لأَنَّهُ هَكَذَا أَحَبَّ اللَّهُ الْعَالَمَ حَتَّى بَذَلَ ابْنَهُ الْوَحِيدَ لِكَيْ لاَ يَهْلِكَ كُلُّ مَنْ يُؤْمِنُ بِهِ بَلْ تَكُونُ لَهُ الْحَيَاةُ الأَبَدِيَّةُ. 17 لأَنَّهُ لَمْ يُرْسِلِ اللَّهُ ابْنَهُ إِلَى الْعَالَمِ لِيَدِينَ الْعَالَمَ بَلْ لِيَخْلُصَ بِهِ الْعَالَمُ. 18 اَلَّذِي يُؤْمِنُ بِهِ لاَ يُدَانُ وَالَّذِي لاَ يُؤْمِنُ قَدْ دِينَ لأَنَّهُ لَمْ يُؤْمِنْ بِاسْمِ ابْنِ اللَّهِ الْوَحِيدِ. 19 وَهَذِهِ هِيَ الدَّيْنُونَةُ: إِنَّ النُّورَ قَدْ جَاءَ إِلَى الْعَالَمِ وَأَحَبَّ النَّاسُ الظُّلْمَةَ أَكْثَرَ مِنَ النُّورِ لأَنَّ أَعْمَالَهُمْ كَانَتْ شِرِّيرَةً. 20 لأَنَّ كُلَّ مَنْ يَعْمَلُ السَّيِّآتِ يُبْغِضُ النُّورَ وَلاَ يَأْتِي إِلَى النُّورِ لِئَلَّا تُوَبَّخَ أَعْمَالُهُ.
يوحنا 3 : 16-20





God never wanted us to perish in iniquity:

Ezekiel 33:11New King James Version (NKJV)

11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’



11 قُلْ لَهُمْ: حَيٌّ أَنَا يَقُولُ السَّيِّدُ الرَّبُّ, إِنِّي لاَ أُسَرُّ بِمَوْتِ الشِّرِّيرِ, بَلْ بِأَنْ يَرْجِعَ الشِّرِّيرُ عَنْ طَرِيقِهِ وَيَحْيَا. إِرْجِعُوا ارْجِعُوا عَنْ طُرُقِكُمُ الرَّدِيئَةِ. فَلِمَاذَا تَمُوتُونَ يَا بَيْتَ إِسْرَائِيلَ؟
حزقيال 33 : 11

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

With all due respect, you sound like a Muslim. They find it inconceivable that God would enter into human flesh and dwell among us. They think it impossible for such greatness to come down to our level. Your doubts are very Islamic in their tone.

I think you miss the whole point of who God is, and what HE wants of us. Was it "too low and menial" for Christ to wash the feet of the apostles? Was that character unbecoming a King? What kind of King do you want? A snob who sits high aloft in his throne ignoring the plight and daily struggles and ultimately salvation of His people, or do you want a God who joins with us in what it means to be human?

You need to get off the "ant" analogy. God doesn't see us as miniscule insects. He loves us. Pure, simple, He loves us. He made us and said that His creation was "good." He put man above all of nature, and created us to love him and for Him to love us, for us to magnify His Holy Name, and to become like Him. That is the whole point of why we're here!!!!! You're missing that. You're so hung up on how GREAT God is, and how LOW we are that you can't wrap your mind around the concept of LOVE!

Why would God create Man, go to such great lengths to give man a world to live in, create all of nature surrounding Man for him, and go through all of the motions of the Old Testament if He just saw us as microscopic ants? God sees us with more love than you are comprehending.

The Old Testament tells us that God's ways are SO FAR above our ways and so utterly different than our ways! He IS infinitely greater than we are! Of course! But how are we to be like Him if He cannot come to us in the flesh? Do you expect us to become like God without the Incarnation? How will we find eternal life? How will we have the Resurrection? How will we attain theosis if we have a distant, cold, foreign god?

You say you already understand the Incarnation, but I don't think you really do, with all due respect. It is not about a great god and a little bunch of crumby ants. It's about a God who created a noble creature whom He LOVES so much that He's willing to dwell among them and save them. Bottom line. And if you cannot accept that most basic reality, you're not a Christian. If you see God as a cold, cruel, distant deity unwilling to incarnate himself and with man as so much cannon fodder and just some distant organism, you're seeing life in terms of Islam...

And what is so "dishonorable" about empathy? Do you think a king walking among his subjects in his kingdom to make him a lousy king? If a president goes to a grocery store and does his own shopping, or wears Levis and goes to Target or Walmart and eats at a barbecue, is he a crummy president? If a rich man visits his employees and listens to their problems, struggles to make ends meet, the way they do their jobs, is that a no-good CEO? Do you want a god of empathy or a god of distance? A god of love and condescension to a suffering people or a god of lofty majesty without feeling or love for his subjects? You choose...

That's nice I know that ! but I don't know we are according to god a very limited creature according to his unlimited nature!

can god appears in an ant ? you will say yes but it's not logical and god doesn't do something which dishonors his nature

the same as human !! we are like any other creature ,, we are limited

i find it a dishonor for god to take a human flesh and be born from a woman!!
how can the divinity fill a human body and inside mother mary's body !!

 

[lost9933]

Thank you for your quick replies,
actually i'm a christian but I live in a muslim country (jordan)
I admit it they effected on my thoughts and the concept of god !
thats why i'm lost I don't know which god should i worship
also I didn't get what do you mean to become like him !?! how can a human become like god!!

and another point why god just didn't find any other solution to save us why he would come to our low level

and now why we still worship jesus ? shouldn't we worship god the divinity ,, when we worship jesus we worship a man ,, jesus body is just a tool for our salvation but now we should go back and worship and pray for god in his divinity

i'm sorry for my bad english and i may have confused thoughts

thats why i came here

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Christ is God. He is the Third Divine Person within the Holy Trinity. God is Trinitarian, which means He has Three Divine Persons within Him--Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

God created Man to become like Him! yes! That is what Scripture tells us! But God meant for man to steadily walk with Him and grow to be godly. Becoming like God the Church calls "theosis." We are meant to be like God.

We worship Jesus Christ because He is part of the Holy Trinity. The Bible tells us that we know the Father through the Son. Christ reconciles us to God. He is the bridge between God and Man. He is fully God, fully Man.

Keep in mind that, before Islam went through the Middle East cutting people down with the sword and FORCING ISLAM on its people, your country, Jordan, was CHRISTIAN and Jewish!!!! Islam came to Jordan through the sword and violence, Christianity came to your land through the peaceful work of the apostles and saints!

You are correct. You are surrounded by Islam, and Islam DOES teach you that God is lofty, distant, violent, and wholly absent from our presence bodily. Beyond being a false religion, that very idea is what I find sad about Islam. God IS among us! He is with us through the workings of the Holy Spirit. And at Divine Liturgy on Sunday He is with us in His perfection in the Holy Eucharist, Christ Our God!

Are you a baptized Orthodox Christian? Were you raised and taught Christianity or are you discovering it for yourself just now?

Thank you for your quick replies,
actually i'm a christian but I live in a muslim country (jordan)
I admit it they effected on my thoughts and the concept of god !
thats why i'm lost I don't know which god should i worship
also I didn't get what do you mean to become like him !?! how can a human become like god!!

and another point why god just didn't find any other solution to save us why he would come to our low level

and now why we still worship jesus ? shouldn't we worship god the divinity ,, when we worship jesus we worship a man ,, jesus body is just a tool for our salvation but now we should go back and worship and pray for god in his divinity

i'm sorry for my bad english and i may have confused thoughts

thats why i came here

 

[lost9933]

Yes I have been baptized orthodox christian, I learnt in the school and read many many articles and threads in different christian forums

I still didnt get what do you mean to become like him ? do you mean to become like god so that we create things and manages the universe ? or what?

I know jesus is god but he took a FLESH for a reason which is our salvation after he saved us but when we pray for jesus we admit that god has a new nature and he has changed !! and this flesh can't do anything for us we should pray for the divinity of jesus or for god the father

what do you mean we know the father through the son ,, why we want to know the father why not the son or the holy spirit is it because he is greater than them ?

thank you

 

[Lukaris]

Thank you for your quick replies,
actually i'm a christian but I live in a muslim country (jordan)
I admit it they effected on my thoughts and the concept of god !
thats why i'm lost I don't know which god should i worship
also I didn't get what do you mean to become like him !?! how can a human become like god!!

and another point why god just didn't find any other solution to save us why he would come to our low level

and now why we still worship jesus ? shouldn't we worship god the divinity ,, when we worship jesus we worship a man ,, jesus body is just a tool for our salvation but now we should go back and worship and pray for god in his divinity

i'm sorry for my bad english and i may have confused thoughts

thats why i came here

I have added Arabic to the scriptures I have posted. I hope this can be of more help. Also see Isaiah 53 (that I previously linked) in the Arabic below:


1 مَنْ صَدَّقَ خَبَرَنَا وَلِمَنِ اسْتُعْلِنَتْ ذِرَاعُ الرَّبِّ؟ 2 نَبَتَ قُدَّامَهُ كَفَرْخٍ وَكَعِرْقٍ مِنْ أَرْضٍ يَابِسَةٍ لاَ صُورَةَ لَهُ وَلاَ جَمَالَ فَنَنْظُرَ إِلَيْهِ وَلاَ مَنْظَرَ فَنَشْتَهِيهِ. 3 مُحْتَقَرٌ وَمَخْذُولٌ مِنَ النَّاسِ رَجُلُ أَوْجَاعٍ وَمُخْتَبِرُ الْحُزْنِ وَكَمُسَتَّرٍ عَنْهُ وُجُوهُنَا مُحْتَقَرٌ فَلَمْ نَعْتَدَّ بِهِ. 4 لَكِنَّ أَحْزَانَنَا حَمَلَهَا وَأَوْجَاعَنَا تَحَمَّلَهَا. وَنَحْنُ حَسِبْنَاهُ مُصَاباً مَضْرُوباً مِنَ اللَّهِ وَمَذْلُولاً. 5 وَهُوَ مَجْرُوحٌ لأَجْلِ مَعَاصِينَا مَسْحُوقٌ لأَجْلِ آثَامِنَا. تَأْدِيبُ سَلاَمِنَا عَلَيْهِ وَبِحُبُرِهِ شُفِينَا. 6 كُلُّنَا كَغَنَمٍ ضَلَلْنَا. مِلْنَا كُلُّ وَاحِدٍ إِلَى طَرِيقِهِ وَالرَّبُّ وَضَعَ عَلَيْهِ إِثْمَ جَمِيعِنَا. 7 ظُلِمَ أَمَّا هُوَ فَتَذَلَّلَ وَلَمْ يَفْتَحْ فَاهُ كَشَاةٍ تُسَاقُ إِلَى الذَّبْحِ وَكَنَعْجَةٍ صَامِتَةٍ أَمَامَ جَازِّيهَا فَلَمْ يَفْتَحْ فَاهُ. 8 مِنَ الضُّغْطَةِ وَمِنَ الدَّيْنُونَةِ أُخِذَ. وَفِي جِيلِهِ مَنْ كَانَ يَظُنُّ أَنَّهُ قُطِعَ مِنْ أَرْضِ الأَحْيَاءِ أَنَّهُ ضُرِبَ مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَنْبِ شَعْبِي؟ 9 وَجُعِلَ مَعَ الأَشْرَارِ قَبْرُهُ وَمَعَ غَنِيٍّ عِنْدَ مَوْتِهِ. عَلَى أَنَّهُ لَمْ يَعْمَلْ ظُلْماً وَلَمْ يَكُنْ فِي فَمِهِ غِشٌّ. 10 أَمَّا الرَّبُّ فَسُرَّ بِأَنْ يَسْحَقَهُ بِالْحُزْنِ. إِنْ جَعَلَ نَفْسَهُ ذَبِيحَةَ إِثْمٍ يَرَى نَسْلاً تَطُولُ أَيَّامُهُ وَمَسَرَّةُ الرَّبِّ بِيَدِهِ تَنْجَحُ. 11 مِنْ تَعَبِ نَفْسِهِ يَرَى وَيَشْبَعُ وَعَبْدِي الْبَارُّ بِمَعْرِفَتِهِ يُبَرِّرُ كَثِيرِينَ وَآثَامُهُمْ هُوَ يَحْمِلُهَا. 12 لِذَلِكَ أَقْسِمُ لَهُ بَيْنَ الأَعِزَّاءِ وَمَعَ الْعُظَمَاءِ يَقْسِمُ غَنِيمَةً مِنْ أَجْلِ أَنَّهُ سَكَبَ لِلْمَوْتِ نَفْسَهُ وَأُحْصِيَ مَعَ أَثَمَةٍ وَهُوَ حَمَلَ خَطِيَّةَ كَثِيرِينَ وَشَفَعَ فِي الْمُذْنِبِينَ.
اشعياء 53



The Bible in Arabic & English can be found here:
Arabic/English Online Bible

 

[lost9933]

[QUOTE=Luk
thank you
what jews say about this text ? for who they refer it ??

 

[ArmyMatt]

I still didnt get what do you mean to become like him ? do you mean to become like god so that we create things and manages the universe ? or what?

no we become like Him meaning He fills us more with His love, light, joy, peace, etc and since He is infinite, we can always be filled more. we become like Him without ever actually becoming Him.

 

[lost9933]

no we become like Him meaning He fills us more with His love, light, joy, peace, etc and since He is infinite, we can always be filled more. we become like Him without ever actually becoming Him.

Can you please answer my whole questions in this thread?
I'd like to read all your opinions
thanks

 

[Lukaris]

They say it merely applies to an old testament king. I believe Josiah or Hezekia who were both great kings in contrast t many impious rulers but the prophecy is too great to apply to any man. During the time of Christ it would seem most Jews would have understood this passage as messianic since messianic expectations were so high.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know jesus is god but he took a FLESH for a reason which is our salvation after he saved us but when we pray for jesus we admit that god has a new nature and he has changed !!

well, the Divine Nature did not change. Divinity is Divinity. while a human nature was assumed with the Divine in One Person, no change of nature took place.

what do you mean we know the father through the son ,, why we want to know the father why not the son or the holy spirit is it because he is greater than them ?

well, I think we know the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit. so the only way to truly know one Person of the Trinity, is to know the other Two because none of the Persons can be separated.

 

[Dorothea]

Hi, lost. I would suggest that you pray that God help your unbelief. We all have periods of doubt and dry spells (walks in the dry desert of our spirituality).

 

[Lukaris]

In another forum re Isaiah 53 I also posted this:

Liturgically Isaiah 53 is read within the OT reading spanning Isaiah 52:13-54:1 during the 6th hour of the Royal hours on Holy Friday during Great & Holy Week. This is followed by an epistle reading from Hebrews 2:11-18 & the Gospel reading from Luke 23:32-49.

I perceive the church teaches the prophecy explained by the epistle & represented as fulfilled by the thieves on the cross representing sinful humanity that can repent or choose to reject Him who bore our sins.

I perceive the core message of the epistle is, " inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh & blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil." (Hebrews 2:14-15 Orth. Study Bible).


Regarding the full passage of Hebrews 2:11-18 in Arabic reads as:

لأَنَّ الْمُقَدِّسَ وَالْمُقَدَّسِينَ جَمِيعَهُمْ مِنْ وَاحِدٍ، فَلِهَذَا السَّبَبِ لاَ يَسْتَحِي أَنْ يَدْعُوَهُمْ إِخْوَةً، قَائِلاً: «أُخَبِّرُ بِاسْمِكَ إِخْوَتِي، وَفِي وَسَطِ الْكَنِيسَةِ أُسَبِّحُكَ». وَأَيْضاً: «أَنَا أَكُونُ مُتَوَكِّلاً عَلَيْهِ». وَأَيْضاً: «هَا أَنَا وَالأَوْلاَدُ الَّذِينَ أَعْطَانِيهِمِ اللهُ». فَإِذْ قَدْ تَشَارَكَ الأَوْلاَدُ فِي اللَّحْمِ وَالدَّمِ اشْتَرَكَ هُوَ أَيْضاً كَذَلِكَ فِيهِمَا، لِكَيْ يُبِيدَ بِالْمَوْتِ ذَاكَ الَّذِي لَهُ سُلْطَانُ الْمَوْتِ، أَيْ إِبْلِيسَ، وَيُعْتِقَ أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ خَوْفاً مِنَ الْمَوْتِ كَانُوا جَمِيعاً كُلَّ حَيَاتِهِمْ تَحْتَ الْعُبُودِيَّةِ. لأَنَّهُ حَقّاً لَيْسَ يُمْسِكُ الْمَلاَئِكَةَ، بَلْ يُمْسِكُ نَسْلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ. مِنْ ثَمَّ كَانَ يَنْبَغِي أَنْ يُشْبِهَ إِخْوَتَهُ فِي كُلِّ شَيْءٍ، لِكَيْ يَكُونَ رَحِيماً، وَرَئِيسَ كَهَنَةٍ أَمِيناً فِي مَا لِلَّهِ حَتَّى يُكَفِّرَ خَطَايَا الشَّعْبِ. لأَنَّهُ فِي مَا هُوَ قَدْ تَأَلَّمَ مُجَرَّباً يَقْدِرُ أَنْ يُعِينَ الْمُجَرَّبِينَ.
عبرانيين 2 : 11-18

 

[lost9933]

Another question came to my mind

jesus lived 33 years,, how was he acting through these years !!
how he was walking and talking to people and work was he using his divinity? or he was just a human until he became 33 years nd became making miracles ,,??

I can't imagine how god lived with people and work and talked to them ?
did they know that he was god?

 

[Lukaris]

Another question came to my mind

jesus lived 33 years,, how was he acting through these years !!
how he was walking and talking to people and work was he using his divinity? or he was just a human until he became 33 years nd became making miracles ,,??

I can't imagine how god lived with people and work and talked to them ?
did they know that he was god?

He chose to live his life as an ordinary man & did not reveal His divinity until His ministry as indicated in Matthew 13:54-55:


54 And when He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, "Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?
Matthew 13:54-55

54 وَلَمَّا جَاءَ إِلَى وَطَنِهِ كَانَ يُعَلِّمُهُمْ فِي مَجْمَعِهِمْ حَتَّى بُهِتُوا وَقَالُوا: «مِنْ أَيْنَ لِهَذَا هَذِهِ الْحِكْمَةُ وَالْقُوَّاتُ؟ 55 أَلَيْسَ هَذَا ابْنَ النَّجَّارِ؟ أَلَيْسَتْ أُمُّهُ تُدْعَى مَرْيَمَ وَإِخْوَتُهُ يَعْقُوبَ وَيُوسِي وَسِمْعَانَ وَيَهُوذَا؟
متى 13 : 54-55
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