I'm concerned about "True Orthodoxy"

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MichaelNZ

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Well, according to the laws of the Roman Catholic "church" (which did not change with Vatican II), the Pope wasn't even supposed to be in an Orthodox Church. Attending a non-Catholic service is forbidden in their "church".
 
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jckstraw72

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Oblio

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Schisms for 200 kopecks Alexios ...

And the answer is ....

I have decided that ...because I do not approve...

What is the Protestant attitude ?

Correct Oblioski ! You're now in the lead
 
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kamikat

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Well, according to the laws of the Roman Catholic "church" (which did not change with Vatican II), the Pope wasn't even supposed to be in an Orthodox Church. Attending a non-Catholic service is forbidden in their "church".

Big deal, that's on him, no one else.
 
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prodromos

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Read about Fr Porphyrios, Elder Ephreim and Elder Haralambos and the difficult and often nonsensical things they wer required to do as monks under the obedience of their spiritual elders. Yet they never questioned or complained, they simply obeyed. The Church is being tested and it is a test of obedience.

Study the history of the church and see how many times people left the church because Patriarchs were heretics. You will find very little reference of such a thing because they didn't leave the church. Eventually the heretical bishop was removed instead. Your priest, even EP Bartholomew, are just small blips in the life of the Church and they will be required to give a full account before God of what they have and have not done. Do not worry yourself about them, you have your own soul to worry about.
 
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Sothron

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This is all making me very, very sad.

Same here. It also bothers me that inquirers are reading this and may be led astray by someone who says they are technically still Orthodox only due to circumstance and stating a number of things that are not Orthodox doctrine while having an Orthodox icon. I earnestly pray Michael will come to his senses and turn his back to these schismatics. :crosseo:
 
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Macarius

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The confusion may be cleared up by a brief history lesson.

Michael is part of (or seeking to become part of, I'm not sure) a hyper-traditional group of churches which call themselves the "true Orthodox." They are a small schismatic group, not in communion with the 5 ecumenically recognized patriarchs - Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Moscow. They list a variety of reasons for this schism, but two things seem to come up a lot:

1) "Ecumenism" - this term is used a lot of different ways, and that's part of the confusion. The form of ecumenism that both sides consider wrong is the one that seeks a "lowest common denominator" between churches and then claims that they are one or that only that denominator is really doctrine. This is common among some of the evangelical churches - it is, in fact, the only unifying doctrine of the non-denominational churches (along with adament sola-scriptura and sola-fide, though theoretically one could disagree with those and be non-denominational; one could NOT disagree with "mere christianity" ecumenism and be non denominational). Because this allows for so much doctrinal wiggle room, it is called the "pan-Heresy" - it can encompas any number of "heresies" underneath it (technically something isn't a heresy unless an Orthodox Christian commits it and is anathematized - hence the quotes).

Because the Orthodox churches (in particular the Patriarch of Constantinople) are involved in things like the "World Council of Churches" and in dialogues with the Pope in Rome they are accused by the "true orthodox" as being in this same camp. We, however, see a big difference between whitewashing differences in an attempt to appear unified (ecumenism), and an honest dialogue in an attempt to bring the heterodox back to the Truth. If we didn't have that dialogue, we would be ignoring the Great Commission. If we fall into ecumenism in it's white-washing form, we ignore the commission of St. Jude to "contend earnestly for the faith once traditioned to all the saints."

Within this dialogue there is the possibility that compromises over smaller traditions can be made - things we don't consider central doctrines (things that can be changed). This is another place that disagreements arise, which leads us to the second hot-button issue.

2) Old Calander vs New Calander: This issue gives these groups the title "Old Calanderists" - perhaps a more common title (at least within the states). I'm not certain when the change took place, but at some point, in an effort to make our calander match up with actual astrological phenomena (to make it an accurate calander), the mainline Orthodox Church - the 5 Patriarchates - decided to start using the Gergorian rather than Julian calander. The Julian calander, while the traditional one of the East, didn't account for the leap year and so was continually off base. The Gregorian calander was created by the West long after the schism, so the East didn't have it, but it did accurately reflect astrology by accounting for a leap year every 4 years to automatically correct itself.

The accusation is that by using the Western calander from a post-schism West, we are committing ecumenism in its white washing form. So the Old Calanderists decry the practice and call us heretics for it. Note: there ARE communities who are in communion with the 5 patriarchs whoe use the Old Calander - the Julian calander. The Orthodox Church does not forbid its use, we just also allow a church / parish / monastery to use the Gregorian calander if they would like to, and encourage it. It is the schismatics who have dogmatized this issue.

And that's really why I disagree with them - they dogmatize legalistic issues and are hyper legalists, refusing to allow that customs and "little t" traditions change. They condemn us for allowing women (if they are contentious about it) to not wear head coverings, for allowing men and women to stand on the same side of the church, for allowing women to wear pants, for giving women communion while on their periods, for using an astrologically correct calander, and for talking to non-Orthodox.

Hope that helps!
Macarius
 
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jckstraw72

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i dont think the adoption of the New Calendar had anything at all to do with astrological correctness, but indeed, with Ecumenism. and various things that have been done and said by various Orthodox priests and bishops are indeed troubling -- going beyond simply sharing the faith, but this alas, does not justify a schism.

for instance, an Antiochian priest i know said he agrees with the sentiments of Esphigmenou (while not their schisming) and that he was quite upset at the visit of the Pope to Constantinople -- sitting on the Patriarch's throne and homilizing at an Orthodox service and what not -- he said were the Pope to ever come to his parish he would NEVER let him sit in the throne. the Pope was treated as if he were a true bishop, when in reality he's not even a laymen of our Church.
 
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Macarius

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i dont think the adoption of the New Calendar had anything at all to do with astrological correctness, but indeed, with Ecumenism. and various things that have been done and said by various Orthodox priests and bishops are indeed troubling -- going beyond simply sharing the faith, but this alas, does not justify a schism.

for instance, an Antiochian priest i know said he agrees with the sentiments of Esphigmenou (while not their schisming) and that he was quite upset at the visit of the Pope to Constantinople -- sitting on the Patriarch's throne and homilizing at an Orthodox service and what not -- he said were the Pope to ever come to his parish he would NEVER let him sit in the throne. the Pope was treated as if he were a true bishop, when in reality he's not even a laymen of our Church.
Certainly not without an ecumenical council to decide the issue... I am no bishop that I should judge these matters in my own prideful self.
 
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Vasileios

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Michael: Are you more Orthodox and more zealous than the elder Paisios and the elder Porphyrios?

Please, think about this question honestly and what it means.

Are you *really* saying that the elder Porphyrios was anathematized for following the new Calendar?

Lord have mercy...

And Lord have mercy on the poor souls of the esphigmenou monastery for their scandalizing the Church in such a despicable way.

You don't know the 10% of the real story behind the Esphigmenou monastery Michael. But seeing your attitude, learning the sad facts is the least of your problems right now...

You are willing to go to a Church that does not share the same cup with THE SAINTS. Have you even stopped to think what this means for your soul?
 
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MishaM

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This whole thread frightens me because I am plagued by these thoughts of "correctness" due to the amount of time I have spent in the "head" of the TOC movement. I still have thoughts that "World Orthodoxy" is not Orthodoxy, that it is not "good enough. "

It has taken me a long time to get to the point I am at now and I am no closer to an Orthodox way of life then I was when I was focusing on the letter of the Law and not on the Heart of the Church.

I fear that I will fall in to the pit of self-righteousness again, but I have found a Serbian parish and a Serbian priest who is willing ot walk with me through all of this. I thank God for him every day because without him I would be almost surely in a worse mess then when I started.

Michal I am praying for you. I wish there was more that I could do because I see so much of myself in you. I can only hope and pray that you will not have to go through half of the things I have and that you will be shown y the Grace of God the path of the Saints.

In Christ,
Juvenaly
 
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DarkNLovely

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Macarius- Thanks for that! With all do respect I think I see why Protestanism exists. It's far easier to say "You have your way, I have mine, so God Bless you and leave me alone!", than it is to be in churches with so many schisms and this idea that not being "right" condems another. I'm just now familiarizing myself with the EOC, but I can tell you for certainty that this is why soooo many people leave the RCC and many more are not interested. I can say so many good things about my non-denom Sola Scripturista background and one of them is that I was NEVER taught to write-off my fellow Christians just because they did not belive exactly how I belive. Our Savior gave us no such example. Thanks Macarius!
 
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nutroll

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To be fair, we don't have lots of schisms. There are those on the periphery that feel the need to break away from the church over various issues, but the church does not split. The Orthodox Church continues on, still united. There are far less of these splinter groups than there are Protestant denominations and non-denominational groups. We are not taught to condemn others, but we also recognize that the theology and the practice of the church have value, and that changing them is not to be taken lightly. However, what most of us are saying is that one ought not to take the unity of the church lightly. The church would have to be in grave error to necessitate a schism. There have been errors that have arisen over the history of the church, and they have been overcome and corrected.
 
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DarkNLovely

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nutroll!
I didn't mean to apply anything negetive to EOC. Just making genearl observations. I didn't want to target them in the post but I was mainly refering to RCC! Sorry if my RCC friends are offened! Didn't mean to do it! I love everybody!
 
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Orthosdoxa

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BTW, we're not condemning Michael or writing him off. We love him and are extremely concerned for him. It is no small thing to have found the Truth of Orthodoxy, then spit on it and join some schismatic group. There are Saints and Church Fathers who have said this is among the worst of sins. Don't misinterpret our nagging Michael as anything other than love and concern.
 
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