I'm concerned about "True Orthodoxy"

[Jacob4707]

Are these the kinds of things that you should speak or write to the priest about? If so, and if you do (or already have) and he doesn't acknowledge these things as being wrong, should you or have you written or spoken to the bishop about them?

Do the other members of the church care about these irregularities and illicit activities? Or are you a lone voice on the matter?

 

[Sothron]

Michael,

Can you not bring up these problems with that priest? And if that does not work his bishop? Don't you think giving up on the real Orthodox Church because of one priest's actions is a bit...drastic?

 

[jckstraw72]

if youre interested in "True" Orthodoxy, then please read this article by an Athonite Monk .. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/anti-patristic-stance-old-calendarist-zealots.aspx

to shcism is totally ANTI-Patristic.

and good Lord please stay away from Abp. Gregory of Denver, he's one of the craziest -- even other "True" Orthodox have warned about him.

think about people like Elder Joseph who inspired a resurgence of Athonite spirituality -- i read that he joined a schism group at one time but soon returned to a canonical Church bc of the constant schisming within the "True" Churches.

Michael -- it sounds like your priest is whacky, but that doesn't disprove the Church -- that's like saying that Judas disproves the disciples and even Christ's ability to lead.

 

[MishaM]

Michael,

Are you truly interested in "Abp." Gregory? Do you want to know of him from someone who put their trust in him? Do you want to know of him from someone who was baptized by him? Do you want to know of someone who was a part of the Synod that made him a Bishop and an Abp? Do you want to know from people who attended Liturgy at the Monastery and received Confession from him at the Monastery? Do you want to know from someone who was married in that monastery?

I have been and done and seen all of these things because I was under his care, living in his diocese, attending his Monastery, married in his monastery, baptized by him. I have seen all of these things. His various jumps and the reasons for these. Now he is the sole Bishop of his own jurisdiction and his own one bishop Synod, this is not the first time he has done this.

Michael please, I am only writing now because I have perssonal experience in this. I used ot be one of his followers. I was on this forum under a different name telling anyone and everyone that they wrre heretics and they were schismatics and that they were not Orthodox but when it al comes down t it I was the one who was not Orthodox because I as looking to the letter of the law to save my soul and not to the Mercy and Love and Compassion of God!

I am willing to share with you my whole story. I have repented of my sins and continue ot ask forgiveness of those here at this forum as well as others where my words led many (some of whom have contacted me later) away from the Church. I do not judge you. I have been where you are. On fire with zeal for the Truth. But trust me if this zeal is misdirected and wrongfully applied to your lifer and your understanding of the Faith then it will lead you (as it did me for three years) down a very dark and evil path.

Due to my sins I can not receive the Mysteries for some time. This is the price I must pay for my actions. I can only offer you my advice and my story. I can pray for you as I shall begin to right now. I only wish that anything I have said, even though my words are useless because of my sins, that something might have a small effect that ou would be open to talk about this before you make any sudden changes.

Live out your Faith and work out your Salvation in fear and trembling. I myself tarted with the Antiochians (as did Gregory, he was born and raised into their Church being he of Lebanese descent) and within one Sunday I "knew" that "this was not Orthodoxy." I attended the GOA parish in my town at the time once as well before shunning them as well as not Orthodox. Where did this get me? Lost. Without the Mysteries for 3 years and now I am left in the same situation due to my sins. The only thing different is now I am learning what Orthodox is from those who have lived it all their lives and not from those who take it upon themselves ot judge what is and is not Orthodoxy.

I have already said too much but I will pray for you and I am here if you ever want to talk.

In Christ.
Juvenaly

 

[prodromos]

Have you considered seeking the advice of priests in other canonical churches in New Zealand? I have had a fair bit to do with Hieromonk Ambrose of ROCOR through another forum (he has a heart condition that makes it painful to lie down, so he used time he might otherwise be sleeping, keeping the Catholics honest on the Catholic Answers forum ). He would no doubt recommend you correspond with Archimandrite Alexis, the abbot of the Holy Transfiguration Monastery near Bombala in NSW, Australia as he is often called upon to mediate whenever there have been disputes within the church. According to Fr Ambrose, he is graced by God with much discernment.

You can find contact details of these and many others in the ROCOR Parish Directory for Australia and New Zealand

Fr Ambrose is very approachable. He is a Kiwi of Irish descent who later joined the Serbian Orthodox Church, became a monk, was ordained a priest, and then later canonically transferred to the Russian Church Abroad to help with the large number of Russian immigrants in New Zealand. He is in Wellington though, which is not so close to you.

John

 

[AJB4]

Michael, can I ask you a question? Where did you get the idea about ecumenicism being the "mother heresy" anyway...who are you quoting on that?

 

[prodromos]

Michael, can I ask you a question? Where did you get the idea about ecumenicism being the "mother heresy" anyway...who are you quoting on that?

St Justin Popovich called ecumenism a "pan-heresy" because it encompasses all heresies previously known in the history of the Church.

In September 2004 in Thessaloniki a conference was held to discuss ecumenism titled "Ecumenism: Origins, Expectations, and Disenchantment". Attending and speaking were priests and monks from a wide range of canonical Orthodox Churches. Many of the papers presented at the conference can be found at Uncut Mountain Press, just click on the "Read More" link at the bottom of each article.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

I would like to add this for Michael's benefit. I hope that he like many traditionalists, respects Elder Cleopa of Sihastria and that, therefore, this episode related by him about the former starets of Sihastria when the new Calendar was introduced:

" In 1925, when the New Calendar was introduced, Protosingelos Ioanichie was much afflicted with grief. He did not know if it was right to switch to the New Style calendar. He then locked himself in his cell and began to fast and pray until he would receive an Indication from the Lord what he should do. After 20 days of this fast, the old man was found in his cell, very weakened. Then, having partaken of the Holy Eucharist, and been given a little food, after two days he said to his brethren and spiritual children:

"Many trials did I endure during those twenty days from the devil. I even had the thought to kill myself, and I beat myself with burning twigs. Then I saw before me a legion of demons who said: 'Come, let us cut down the old man who wants to be holy.' Then they cried out against me saying : 'Who told you that you could become holy?'
"'But who told you that man cannot become holy?' I responded.
"On another day they said to me: 'It matters little that you fast, for your life is still firmly in our hands!'
"Then I said to them: 'I place my hope in the mercy of God to deliver me from your hands!'
"After many more days of fasting, I saw above me in the air three saints dressed as hierarchs and recognized them as the Three Holy Hierarchs (Ss. Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian and John Chrysostom). From the midst of them, as in one loud voice, they said: 'Ioanichie, why do you struggle so and not submit to obedience? Do you not understand that obedience is far greater than sacrifice? Therefore be obedient to those placed over you, and do not any longer question the revised calendar.' Then, after imparting to me their blessing, the three ascended heavenward, and I never saw them again." From that day onward, the old man never again disputed the calendar issue."

You can find it in context here:
http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_ioanichie_moroi_life.htm

Elder Cleopa has always encouraged obedience even in such circumstances and would never encourage anyone to do what you, Michael, are proposing. I know how you feel. I've been there myself, though perhaps not quite so far down that road and it was the example of the likes of Elder Cleopa that prevented my going into schism. I hope such might also be the case with you.

James

 

[ma2000]

Father Gheorghe Calciu about Elder Cleopa:

Somebody told me that once some christians came to ask Father Cleopa about the two calendars. Father Cleopa had asked them: "Is there in our calendar or yours (the old calendar) a saint callled Saint Calendar? If there is non, why do you keep worshipping him? Do you make saints out of human things? Do you make an idol out of the calendar, which is a human thing? It doesn't have mouth and it doesn't speak, it doesn't have ears and it doesn't hear. Go to your homes and don't put the calendar ahead of saints."

 

[Vasileios]

Michael, both the elders Porphyrios and Paisios knew fully well the real deal about the calendars, plus more. This is a well-known story in Greece.

I agree that Metaxakis was a man who caused harm to the Church, including the business with the calendar. Fr. Romanides also acknowledged the masonry you did.

But the fact remains that these HOLY men, warned against moving away from the church.

The elder Porphyrios was on the new calendar, and imo he is the greatest saint of the 20th century. The elder Paisios was a desert father of the 20th century. Ioan just told you about the elder Cleopas.

So tell me, how do you think that you know better than people who have attained theosis, have seen the Uncreated Light of Mt. Tabor, have been truly temples of the Holy Spirit? In all our history as Orthodox WE LOOK TO THE SAINTS for guidance. We obey the saints.

Thank God we had such saints in the 20th century as some would want to distort the teachings of saints of centuries past. We obey the living tradition of the Church Michael, and that is OUR SAINTS.

Please, please, reconsider.

In Christ,
Vasileios

 

[ma2000]

http://www.ziua.net/display.php?id=199512&data=2006-05-13

Un-burried seven years after his death, the body of archimandrite Ilarion Argatu was found intact.

From Fr Argatu's book "445 spiritual answers":

403. There was a christian woman at Boroaia who came to church, fasted every time, was receiving communion, and was a good christian, although her mother believed in the Old Calendar. One day, she became very sick and couldn't get up out of bed. She then sent someone to tell me to come to give her communion. I hasted to her house and was amazed how aunt Ileana became so sick all of a sudden. When I started saying the prayers for the confession, she told me:
- "Father, please, this time and because it is the last time, I feel I must ask you to mention in your prayers the today saints by the old calendar!"
- Why, aunt Ileana, you have never asked this and never believed in the old calendar, you always thought they are wrong?
- I know, father, but please, this time, use the prayers for confession and Eucharisty for the old calendar. My mother died being upset with me because she had never convinced me to go to the old calendar church; I want to make up with mum at least in the last moments of my life.
No matter how much I insisted and how many arguments I broght to her, that in the last moment of their lives, people can loose their redemption and loose everything good they had in their lives and that that was a temptation from the devil, I couldn't do anything to convince her. So I had to give her the confession and communion the way she had asked. I had insisted that her family should bring her an old calendar priest, if she wanted so, but aunt Ileana didn't want other priest than me.
Soon after I received aunt Ileana's confession, she died. I burried her. I was moved by the woman's stubborness, because all the time I was carefull to convince her not to go to the old calendar church, knowing that her whole family went there, and in the last moments of her life loosing her without any way to save her. I prayed to God to show me where is aunt Ileana's soul!
While I was praying, the wall from east dissapeared and a young man dressed in white appeared.
- Did yoy ask from the Creator to show you where is the soul of aunt Ileana?
- Yes, I replied.
- Come with me and see! He took me in the air and went towards north. In an instant we passed over mountains, valleys, forrests, villages, cities and we descended in a dark place full of thorns, rocks and short and sharp grass. The youg man took some grass in his hand and opened the earth like a door.
- Descend! he ordered.
- I don't see anything, I said, because it was very dark and I couldn't see any stairs.
- Let there be light! the young man ordered. Then there was light an I saw some stairs; I don't know form what material they were made of, but we descended for a long time in the earth until we came in front of a wall, which was made neither out of stone, nor iron, nor cement; I don't know what it was made of. There were many doors. We stopped in fron of a door, at which the young man knocked. The door opened and I entered a room not too big, with dark grey walls. In the middle of the room sat aount Ileana on a chair in a very powerful and heavy light. When she saw me, her face lightened and said:
- You came to get me out of here! I didn'tlisten to you and look what I have to endure! This hot and heavy light; my shoulders hurt because it is so heavy!
The young man signaled me that it is time to leave and said:
- At the end of her life, she lost her place with the Creator. This is what those who separate themselves from the obedience of the Church, those who don't listen to their spiritual father and believe they are more enlightened have to endure! So she lost the place that was prepared for her for living a christian life, for considering that the separation of the church because of the calendar was the fault of those who disobbeyed and kept the old calendar. Did you see how the devil had patience and waited for her until the last moment? Then he have her the thought that she had dissobbeyed her mother to keep the old calendar? Do you see how a man can become lost even in the last moment of his life? There are so many who have been cheated this way! There are so many who say that there is nothing wrong with the old calendar, because it's still an orthodox church. It is orthodox, but it's a church fallen from the Holy Gift and obedience. If they returned to obedience, it would be something different. Because of this their prayers are not listened, although they keep a christian life and respect the canons.

 

[ma2000]

Even if you are right, and the teaching of the new calendar is wrong, you still have to obey the church. Those who originated the false teachings will be punished, not you. Outside the church, you will loose the Holy Gift.

If you truly want to follow the old calendar, then join the Serbian or the Russian Orthodox Church. This way, you will follow the old calendar and you will be in the Orthodox Church. Most Russians are anti-ecumenicists and you won't have to worry about that.

 

[ma2000]

The Old Calendar might be right, but the fact that they LEFT the Church makes them wrong.
Throughout its' history, Orthodox Church claimed that it was guided by the Holy Spirit. Even if they take a wrong decission at one time, the Holy Spirit will prove the wrong things. But if you LEAVE the church, then you have NO Holy Spirit. That is what makes them heretical.

The Old Calendarists from Romania LEFT the Church. We are in communion with the monasteries of Mount Athos (a month ago I attended the Divine Liturgy held at my Romanian Orthodox church by Staretz Ephraim of Vatopedion) and all the other Orthodox that keep the old calendar. I am talking about the churches that SEPARATED themselves from The Orthodox Church because of the new calendar.
The Orthodox Church of Basserabia is under the Romanian Orthodox church and they keep the Old Calendar!

 

[ma2000]

I don't know when is the exact moment when you actually leave your church.
Maybe when saying the prayer like the schismatics.

There is also the thing that the lady refused another spiritual father, but dissobeyed hers. Maybe things would have been different if she had confessed to schismatic priest. I don't know.

But I do believe Fr Argatu's story.

Like I said, there is the option of joining an Orthodox church who respects the old calendar. Like the Russian Orthodox Church or the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Btw, the monks on Holy Mount Athos are not in communion with the schismatics from Romania that keep the old calendar, but with the Romanian Orthodox Church.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

You actually believe that your wisdom is such that you dare to cast aspersions on the honesty of a father considered one of the greatest confessors of Romania in recent times and one that is, to boot, incorrupt through the grace of God? What hubris for one so young!

Have you not even stopped to consider that it was her adamant refusal to follow the advice of her confessor - her disobedience - that put her out of the Church? The point is that obedience, as Fr. Cleopa said, is important in itself and it is precisely through disobedience that the Old Calendarists have abandoned the Church and gone into schism. To be honest you are sounding more and more Protestant with every post you make in this thread. I implore you, for your own sake, look again at what you are doing. You are genuinely endangering yourself.

James

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

Honestly, come down off your high horse and get real. You aren't even old enough to properly remember communism. You certainly have no idea what life under the communists was like. Yes the MP made mistakes and compromises, yes there were priests and heirarchs that were communist stooges, but this is no longer the case. Those (like the schismatics who left ROCOR, and yourself apparently) who are unwilling to allow for the repentance of the MP, who still condemn it because of failings in the past, are doing nothing more than rehashing the Donatist heresy that so scandalised the Church after the end of the Roman persecutions.

And by the way, is ROCOR as traditional as the True Orthodox churches?

More so - it is not traditional to foment schism and set up rival synods.

James

 

[ma2000]

Here's the address of Vatopedion Monastery on Mount Athos. I'm sure you can't say they are anti-traditionalists, are ecumenicists or they keep the new calendar.
Write them a letter and ask for their guidance.

I.M.M. BATOPAIDIOU 63086 Karyes, GREECE

 

[kamikat]

I've thought about joining ROCOR in the past, but since the merger, ROCOR is now the Moscow Patriarchate Abroad. The MP is a communisitc church, which shares the "joys, sorrows, successes and failures" of the communist government.

And by the way, is ROCOR as traditional as the True Orthodox churches?

The MP is not a communistic church. The Russian government is not communist. It's been 20 years since the communist governemt of the USSR fell. Recently, there have been news articles about how Putin is concerned about the lnfluence the Russian church is having over the people. During the communist era, the Church was under prosecution, they did what they had to to survive. Ask any of the little old ladies and they'll tell you that it's different today.

As for ROCOR, they aren't in schism from the rest of the Church, so they are more traditional than any vagante group out there. As for the things that aren't so important, yes, they usually require headcoverings, women on one side of the church, men on the other, they don't permit women to receive during their periods and all kinds of other traditions (with a small t) that you seem to think are signs of an Orthodox church. Keep in mind that traditions of man are not the same as Holy Tradition. The traditions of man may change, but Holy Tradition does not.

 

[DarkNLovely]

What exactly does ecumenical mean in terms of the Orthodox Church?

 

[kamikat]

It's used in two different ways. When we talk about an Ecumenical Council, that means a meeting of all the Orthodox Bishops and it's rulings affect the whole Church. The other meaning is the ecumenical movement, such as the World Council of Churches or other interfaith groups or activities. The reason this type of ecumenism is considered a bad thing is because most of these groups insist that everyone recognize all the other participants' beliefs to be equal. Of course, we believe that the Orthodox Church is the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, so we don't believe that other faiths are true. Many times, people mistake events for being ecumenical, when they really aren't. For example, last year, the Pope visited the Patriarch of Constantinople. Many people assumed that the Patriarch and the Pope con-celebrated the Divine Liturgy. I recorded the the Divine Liturgy and watched it. The Pope did not celebrate the Liturgy, did not receive communion, acted like a visitor.