If your christian does this mean the war between body and soul stops?

[NothingIsImpossible]

So being on these forums awhile there are usually three types of people when the topic of messing up comes up. The first person says "If your a true christian, you can overcome any sin and never mess up!". Then you have the other person who says our sins are payed for and while we can overcome alot, it doesn't mean all messing up is gone. Then you have the third type who lives a life of doubt, sadness and struggle because they are not perfect or near it.

So my question to you is who is right and what would you tell the third person?

My belief is Jesus died for our sins. They are washed white as snow. So we don't answer for those in haven in terms of he won't be making a decision of heaven or hell based on sins. However I do believe we all have areas of our lives where we mess up on. For some its gambling or drinking or inappropriate contentography or a wicked tongue...etc. And I believe there in those areas we may never truly be free from them. Or even if we do, there will always be something to work on because we cannot obtain the level of perfection Jesus did.

We live in bodies that are of sin and corruption. And I also believe this doesn't mean we should mess up freely because we are still called to live a good life nor should we use Gods grace as an excuse to purposely mess up. And I believe, as this quote says:
".....waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner in my own body"

As in our bodies will always be at war, but they shouldn't be so bad that we feel stuck as a prisoner to the point of our life is stressful, sad, depressing and what not. Instead we should set our sights on God. We should work hard to not mess up. And when we do mess up pray for forgiveness, know its forgiven and move on. No doubts or continued pity/feeling bad about the forgiven sin.

What do you think?

I know me I have my own struggles. Many of which I have won some battles with. Others I am almost done with the battles. And one of which I am in the middle of. I may mess up but after praying for forgiveness and strength, I feel strong and know I can do it WITH Gods help (often we forget we need His help, we can't do it on our own). So to me life is great despite my bodies war at times. I look forward to hugging Jesus and God when I get into heaven. To be free of this vessel and sin.

 

[Greg J.]

So being on these forums awhile there are usually three types of people when the topic of messing up comes up. The first person says "If your a true christian, you can overcome any sin and never mess up!". Then you have the other person who says our sins are payed for and while we can overcome alot, it doesn't mean all messing up is gone. Then you have the third type who lives a life of doubt, sadness and struggle because they are not perfect or near it.

I haven't run into a Christian who believes what you state the first person believes, because you said "you can overcome any sin and never mess up!" The more time spent being faithful to God and/or refinement by fire a person has been through (which can only proceed so fast), the more faith God will grant, through which Christ will live through them. At some point it becomes possible to no longer sin, but it is only because of Jesus, not because "you" become capable of it.

The second type describes most of us Christians whom God hasn't brought to that point yet. Under typical peaceful worldly conditions, becoming the first type of person requires daily sacrifice (that costs you) to serve according to God's will.

The third type is the same type of person as the second, except the person has had extraordinary (or "regular") suffering in their lives without the faith in Jesus needed to remain joyful. Do not be deceived. This kind of faith comes only from God. While you can fight toward it, and God will reward you, it's not something that can be accomplished by human effort. It is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). To get more of this, approach it the same as someone who wants to have more faith in God (short answer: obey the first and second greatest commandments).

 

[ValleyGal]

I believe that "messing up" is about behaviour. And I guess we could reach a relatively sin-less level of behaviour - it reminds me of the list of rules I grew up with: don't drink, don't do drugs, don't date anyone you don't want to marry, don't get drunk, don't drive over the speed limit, attend church twice on Sundays and once during the week, and on and on. We can be behaviourally "good."

But I have come to believe that we don't need Jesus because we mess up behaviourally. We need him because we have an imperfect nature. We are not 100% motivated by love 100% of the time, and we do not have 100% pure character, thoughts, etc. We are inherently "defected". In the Bible, we are told to "put on Christ" - external, like a garment. We are told that because that is the holiness God will see when he looks at us. But we will never "be" Christ internally. So whether we "mess up" behaviourally or not is really irrelevant because even if we were perfect outwardly, we still need to put on Christ because we will never "be" him.

I think the only recourse for us is to admit our desperate need for him and accept that without him, we are hopeless. It is only when we know who we really are without him, that we can fully appreciate who we are IN him.

 

[Winken]

I know me I have my own struggles. Many of which I have won some battles with. Others I am almost done with the battles. And one of which I am in the middle of. I may mess up but after praying for forgiveness and strength, I feel strong and know I can do it WITH Gods help (often we forget we need His help, we can't do it on our own). So to me life is great despite my bodies war at times. I look forward to hugging Jesus and God when I get into heaven. To be free of this vessel and sin.

You have your answer........... be blessed!

 

[rjs330]

Paul speaks of this often in his letters. He himself says he struggles with his flesh and messes up. He says we do to.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Galatians 5:16‭-‬17 ESV
http://bible.com/59/gal.5.16-17.ESV




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[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Becoming a christian is when the battle begins. Atheists have no standard in which to hold themselves objectively speaking so theres little to no battle they do what they want. We however have christ to live up to. Which we will fail but which we die trying to live up to.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Really amazing responses so far! It reminded me to that you know your choosing God over a sinful act when you feel guilt after you messed up. As in you realize what you just did, did not make you feel good. But the opposite. For me when I mess up I feel guilt depending on how bad I think it was.

I remember my pastor two weeks ago talked about we don't answer to God (when you die) for "Oh you had sex unwed!", its more of we answer for what we did with our lives. Did we use the gifts He gave us right? Did we lead others to salvation? Did we lead a life that others would notice and say we truly acted like christians...etc. Hence our rewards will vary. I personally can't think of anyone I have lead to salvation, so maybe my rewards are less in heaven. Granted maybe they did get saved after, just not with me in person. Like maybe I started them down a good path to Christ.

I know on this forum I have helped so many people and I can only pray it has helped them and they remained christians or grew as Christians...etc. Whatever the case its only because of God I gave any wisdom. Because there are times when I respond to something and my people say "Your burning up the keyboard!" and I know thats the Holy Spirit giving me words of wisdom to say. Because looking back at some posts I know I could have not have structered it so perfetly.

 

[ValleyGal]

its more of we answer for what we did with our lives.

I think the question will be "what did you do with Jesus?"

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Yeah, phrased it better then me!

 

[Jenniferdiana]

I don't think it stops until we are fully mature and grow spiritually in Christ. Or when such things are practiced. I truly think Christians can be sinless. I think it is possible especially with God's help.. to say otherwise is only an excuse....correct me if I am wrong

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I don't think it stops until we are fully mature and grow spiritually in Christ. Or when such things are practiced. I truly think Christians can be sinless. I think it is possible especially with God's help.. to say otherwise is only an excuse....correct me if I am wrong

Well I'd argue Jesus was sinless while here and He was even tempted. So if someone who is perfect like Himself was tempted (but did not sin). Then we most certainly will never be perfect. That and if you consider what it means to mess up/sin. Its relatively easy to do. Even for the most perfect looking people.

Whether we look at the opposite sex just once when older. Maybe say we hate someone in our head once when older. Its messing up. Though I think the one thing we are likely to mess up the most when older is mans law. For example we are told to bey mans laws unless it interferes with Gods laws. Me? I have jaywalked many times. On VERY rare occasions (on short trips down the street) I don't wear my belt. So I am breaking mans law and thus messing up.

 

[ShaulHaTarsi]

I think the question will be "what did you do with Jesus?"

This hits the mark. I've been doing a lot of reading lately and am starting to realize that the more we make it about ourselves, how we mess up and how we need Jesus the more likely we are to fail and end up in misery. We are frail and imperfect, so let's not focus on that, but in Jesus, in whom we live.

So indeed, it's not a question of what we did with ourselves: the answer to that question will always fall short of where we want it to, and will always lead into a bottomless pit. Indeed the question is what we did in respect to Jesus.

Jesus says i am the way. Not that he leads the way, not that he helps us along our way. He is the way.

 

[Jenniferdiana]

Well I'd argue Jesus was sinless while here and He was even tempted. So if someone who is perfect like Himself was tempted (but did not sin). Then we most certainly will never be perfect. That and if you consider what it means to mess up/sin. Its relatively easy to do. Even for the most perfect looking people.

Whether we look at the opposite sex just once when older. Maybe say we hate someone in our head once when older. Its messing up. Though I think the one thing we are likely to mess up the most when older is mans law. For example we are told to bey mans laws unless it interferes with Gods laws. Me? I have jaywalked many times. On VERY rare occasions (on short trips down the street) I don't wear my belt. So I am breaking mans law and thus messing up.

I guess so but I still think it's possible

 

[Dave-W]

I haven't run into a Christian who believes what you state the first person believes, because you said "you can overcome any sin and never mess up!"

I have - on both ends of the scale. One that says if you ever mess up you were not really a christian ever to begin with, and the others that say that even if it LOOKS like we mess up, we really have not messed up.

That 1st case to me is very sad while the 2nd case to me is just wacky.

I am not sure which branch of Christendom you come from Greg, but I grew up in the Wesleyan Holiness branch which has a doctrine of "Entire Sanctification." (one doctrine I could never quite swallow)

John Wesley:

"...that habitual disposition of the soul which, in the sacred writings, is termed holiness; and which directly implies being cleansed from sin, 'from all filthiness both of flesh and spirit'; and, by consequence, being endued with those virtues which were in Christ Jesus; being so 'renewed in the image of our mind,' as to be 'perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.' ( A Plain Account of Christian Perfectionism, p. 12)


"In this is perfection, and glory, and happiness: the royal law of heaven and earth is this, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all they heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.' The one perfect good shall be your one ultimate end" (ibid.). Lastly, perfection is "deliverance from inward as well as from outward sin" (ibid., p. 26) and "a Christian is so far perfect as not to commit sin" (ibid., p. 25).

 

[Greg J.]

The truth will never contradict any of these statements:

1. Apart from Jesus you can do nothing.
2. All things are possible with God.
   
3. Only God is good.
4. God loves you a huge amount, and if you are seeking to be obedient, he will always help you and make sure it works out to your benefit in the long run.
5. It is no longer "you" (the "old man") who lives, but you are a new creation who has unity with Jesus. We still choose to follow the ways of our old selves, but don't have to. The more we are obedient out of love, the more Christ's life is revealed in our hearts, and as a result, in our thoughts, words, and actions.
6. If you want or need something God wants you to have, God will help you get it.

 

[Persis]

Nothingisimpossible, I believe that as long as we are on this Earth and living in fallen bodies,we will never be able to attain sinlessness or perfection. God is the only One Who is Perfect, and even our best works are like filthy rags in comparison to Him. I think that if we ever could attain perfection we would probably get very prideful, take the credit, and we might very easily fall away, thinking we don't need God. I think of St. Paul who had a thorn in the flesh that God never removed to keep himself humble.. I think of myself and all my flaws and shortcomings, and it reminds me who I am not, and how grateful I am that Jesus died on the cross for me, so undeserving, but yet so loved. I dont know if I will ever be able to wrap my brain around that.. it's just so awesome.. beyond words. I guess in short, it keeps me aware of my brokeness. and this clarity of comparison helps me to have compassion and to be able to relate to other people. Otherwise, if I was perfect I just might be staring down my nose at people, thinking I was better than them, and treating them badly. It's an interesting topic.. In any case, your note made me think of this verse:

Ephesians 2 : 3-10
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our fleshand following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Having said that I also believe Christians can mature in life, and they can win many battles, but the glory will always go to God for His help, his grace and mercy. I think too, it should be the goal of every Christian to not sin as a 'choice'. We can desire to be holy, but I believe we will always sin and fall short, even if it's small..it's still sin.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So being on these forums awhile there are usually three types of people when the topic of messing up comes up. The first person says "If your a true christian, you can overcome any sin and never mess up!". Then you have the other person who says our sins are payed for and while we can overcome alot, it doesn't mean all messing up is gone. Then you have the third type who lives a life of doubt, sadness and struggle because they are not perfect or near it.

So my question to you is who is right and what would you tell the third person?

My belief is Jesus died for our sins. They are washed white as snow. So we don't answer for those in haven in terms of he won't be making a decision of heaven or hell based on sins. However I do believe we all have areas of our lives where we mess up on. For some its gambling or drinking or inappropriate contentography or a wicked tongue...etc. And I believe there in those areas we may never truly be free from them. Or even if we do, there will always be something to work on because we cannot obtain the level of perfection Jesus did.

We live in bodies that are of sin and corruption. And I also believe this doesn't mean we should mess up freely because we are still called to live a good life nor should we use Gods grace as an excuse to purposely mess up. And I believe, as this quote says:
".....waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner in my own body"

As in our bodies will always be at war, but they shouldn't be so bad that we feel stuck as a prisoner to the point of our life is stressful, sad, depressing and what not. Instead we should set our sights on God. We should work hard to not mess up. And when we do mess up pray for forgiveness, know its forgiven and move on. No doubts or continued pity/feeling bad about the forgiven sin.

What do you think?

I know me I have my own struggles. Many of which I have won some battles with. Others I am almost done with the battles. And one of which I am in the middle of. I may mess up but after praying for forgiveness and strength, I feel strong and know I can do it WITH Gods help (often we forget we need His help, we can't do it on our own). So to me life is great despite my bodies war at times. I look forward to hugging Jesus and God when I get into heaven. To be free of this vessel and sin.

Yes there are a lot of different types of people out there, take the sin of sensuality, some as Paul said "use grace as an excuse for sensuality" which is not what God intended, others may be going through a tough time, and fall into it out of emotional weakness. I think it comes down to being able to decern or make a distinction when a person is weak and when they are using licence. As the bible says:

Jud 1:22-3 And of some have compassion, making a difference. And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

The weak need compassion, the rebellious a warning to not take grace for granted.

But in terms of overcoming the bible says "pray that you enter not into temptation", when Jesus said that he was not saying say a 5 minute prayer, he had just derided the disciples for not even praying for a hour with him. Consistent prayer is needed. The bible says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, pray therefore that you enter not into temptation". Prayer fills us up with strength a prayless life give the flesh full reign.

 

[protorayish]

Well Paul certainly seemed to struggle with the war between flesh and spirit!

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin.

(emphasis added)

But I also believe that God gives us strength to overcome any temptation and that we often fail by relying on our understanding and strength.