If you followed OSAS...

[ToBeLoved]

Hmm. I don't have this perfect, but let me try...
Well, somebody had to be chosen to set an example.
I use Romans 9:22-23 as a guide for determining purpose of specifics.
So I see Israel as the teaching tool.
First we had to learn what salvation is in order to value it.
I think the example was as much to show us what it isn't.
It isn't dependant on our understanding or efforts, although those have an appropriate place. And it isn't dependant on pedigree, although that has a meaningful and appropriate place as well, in the story.
"Salvation is of Israel" was the understanding, but Paul redefined Israel as all believers when he said, " Not all who are of Israel, are Israel."
Maybe that helps a little?

That doesn't explain the Jewish people during this time of the Gentiles.

Did God forget His Old Covenant people then? God does not change the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant is after Christ. So what about before & Judaism now? Aren't there other sheep? How does Calvinism reconcile the Old and New? Or does it only allocate for pieces of theology?

Because it all is suppose to come under Christ. If it is all His will. Then it all fits together.

 

[JLB777]

That still changes nothing when we're considering whether predestination is scriptural or not.

If a believing Christian comes to a point in their life, whereby they no longer believe, then they would stop confessing their sins, and would not be forgiven of those sins, nor cleansed of their unrighteousness.

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins;for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

"Knowing Him" is the definition of eternal life.... And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

This is how we know that we know Him... by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Knowing Him is eternal life, the thing you label as "fellowship", is the text book, biblical definition of eternal life.

The way the bible has given us to verify and prove that we know Him is: by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

There is a condition to having eternal life... it is keeping His commandments, the evidence of knowing Him.

If we stumble in this, we can confess our sin and be forgiven, as we have an Advocate with the Father...
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8-2:2

The Test of Knowing Him
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

That's why the Apostle Paul, constantly warned the Gentiles, who were used to living in immorality, not to practice the works of the flesh, because it would end up resulting in them being partakers of God's wrath on the day of judgement.

Paul warned them over and over of these things.


5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

Let no one deceive you with empty words...


JLB

 

[Albion]

If a believing Christian comes to a point in their life, whereby they no longer believe, then they would stop confessing their sins, and would not be forgiven of those sins, nor cleansed of their unrighteousness.

That person would most likely not be among the Elect, wouldn't you say? But if he were, he would repent later on.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Can someone against OSAS explain how the believer would loose the Holy Spirit?

Because we are 'sealed' by the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant UNTIL the Day of Redemption. The Holy Spirit TESTIFIES with our spirit we are Christ's Own! So who can remove us out of Jesus Christ's right hand after the Father has given us to Christ?

So can someone please explain how the New Covenant is broken?

When the Holy Spirit leaves a believer?

Who breaks the Covenant?

Surely not God.


That's what would have to happen to 'unsave' a believer. Let's stop beating around the bush and get to the meat.

We have been bought with a price. Who paid the price? We ARE Christ's!

One can only serve one master. God or satan. So something needs to change back from who we are.

 

[Dave-W]

If a believing Christian comes to a point in their life, whereby they no longer believe, then they would stop confessing their sins, and would not be forgiven of those sins, nor cleansed of their unrighteousness.

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins;for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

This makes one fatal assumption: that salvation is based on whether you have unrepented sins or not. That can lead to a situation where you do something that you do not know is a sin so you never repent of it; and you go to hell, but in your heart and mind you believe you love the Lord and are being faithful to Him.

I have been pressed many times in my life by the OSAS crowd on whether I believed it or not. Growing up with a Wesleyan Arminian doctrinal stance, I rejected it outright. But in the 90s my doctrines took a shift away from that to Messianic theology. So about 5 years ago I re-examined it in light of my new beliefs.

I came to a slightly different conclusion. Rather, I came up with a different conclusion on salvation in general. Is it by:

Works? Faith? Grace? Law?

All of the above; and NONE of the above.

It is on the basis of COVENANT is what I concluded. If you are in the covenant, you are saved. If not ... And scripture assumes for the most part that once you are in, you are in for good. (like marriage) But there are certain choices that can be made, certain actions taken that weaken the covenant, and if continued will eventually break it. (like ongoing unrepented sexual infidelity will eventually break a marriage) At this point salvation is lost because the covenant is broken. But that is a difficult place to get to, and must be actively pursued.

 

[JLB777]

That person would most likely not be among the Elect, wouldn't you say? But if he were, he would repent later on.

No.

This warning is to the Church, those who are Christians.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

This makes one fatal assumption: that salvation is based on whether you have unrepented sins or not. That can lead to a situation where you do something that you do not know is a sin so you never repent of it; and you go to hell, but in your heart and mind you believe you love the Lord and are being faithful to Him.

I have been pressed many times in my life by the OSAS crowd on whether I believed it or not. Growing up with a Wesleyan Arminian doctrinal stance, I rejected it outright. But in the 90s my doctrines took a shift away from that to Messianic theology. So about 5 years ago I re-examined it in light of my new beliefs.

I came to a slightly different conclusion. Rather, I came up with a different conclusion on salvation in general. Is it by:

Works? Faith? Grace? Law?

All of the above; and NONE of the above.

It is on the basis of COVENANT is what I concluded. If you are in the covenant, you are saved. If not ... And scripture assumes for the most part that once you are in, you are in for good. (like marriage) But there are certain choices that can be made, certain actions taken that weaken the covenant, and if continued will eventually break it. (like ongoing unrepented sexual infidelity will eventually break a marriage) At this point salvation is lost because the covenant is broken. But that is a difficult place to get to, and must be actively pursued.

It is on the basis of COVENANT is what I concluded.

I'm glad you understand that we are in a Covenant, and being in Covenant is based on conditions.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


If we are "in Him", then we are no longer "in Him", we will in deed, be thrown into the fire and burned.

If we don't remain connected to Him, then we are no longer connected to eternal life that He has.

We must have the Son, in order to have the eternal life that is within Him.



12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:12-13


It is those who endure to the end, that will be saved.



JLB

 

[Dave-W]

Molinism makes very good sense. Its explanatory power concerning God's sovereignty and human free will is, in my opinion, better than both Armenianism and Calvinism.

But it fails in the same way both Calvinism and Arminianism fail, it is trying to analyze a Hebraic concept from a Greek-logic framework. IOW, it makes the God of the bible subservient to a set of pagan logic rules.

 

[aiki]

But it fails in the same way both Calvinism and Arminianism fail, it is trying to analyze a Hebraic concept from a Greek-logic framework. IOW, it makes the God of the bible subservient to a set of pagan logic rules.

Are you saying God's truth is Hebrew-specific? That the rules of logic are a Greek invention rather than a divine one?

Selah.

 

[Dave-W]

Are you saying God's truth is Hebrew-specific?

The other way around. The Hebrew mindset and view point is formed from centuries of having the OT scriptures.

God did not form his revelations around a Hebrew viewpoint; rather the Hebrew viewpoint formed around God's revelations.

That the rules of logic are a Greek invention rather than a divine one?

Eh, Close.

The rules of logic the pagan Greeks codified is how God set up the physical time space universe we live in to operate. But the "rules of logic" concerning Him and matters of faith operate on an entirely different set of logic rules.

Do a search on "Hebrew Block Logic," or "Adductive Logic in the Torah." (yes, that is spelled correctly)

 

[aiki]

The other way around. The Hebrew mindset and view point is formed from centuries of having the OT scriptures.

God did not form his revelations around a Hebrew viewpoint; rather the Hebrew viewpoint formed around God's revelations.

Exactly.

The rules of logic the pagan Greeks codified is how God set up the physical time space universe we live in to operate. But the "rules of logic" concerning Him and matters of faith operate on an entirely different set of logic rules.

Yes...and no. An "entirely different set of logic rules" seems rather over-stated.

Do a search on "Hebrew Block Logic," or "Adductive Logic in the Torah." (yes, that is spelled correctly)

Um...no thanks.

Selah.

 

[Dave-W]

Yes...and no. An "entirely different set of logic rules" seems rather over-stated.

Not overstated if you read how adductive or block logic works. It is quite different. It may even appear to be in opposition to deduction and induction. It can hold things that are in diametrical opposition to each other as simultaneously true.

Aristotelian logic chokes on that; but not Hebrew Block logic.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The other way around. The Hebrew mindset and view point is formed from centuries of having the OT scriptures.

God did not form his revelations around a Hebrew viewpoint; rather the Hebrew viewpoint formed around God's revelations.

Eh, Close.

The rules of logic the pagan Greeks codified is how God set up the physical time space universe we live in to operate. But the "rules of logic" concerning Him and matters of faith operate on an entirely different set of logic rules.

Do a search on "Hebrew Block Logic," or "Adductive Logic in the Torah." (yes, that is spelled correctly)

Excuse me for coming in to your conversation but I think it is the opposite.

Jesus moved us forward from the OT.

Jesus decided it was now Jew and Gentile under one covenant. The New Covenant.

If Hebrews have issues with that they need to talk to God. The New Covenant is what it is. I get sick of many over and over trying to drag Gentiles through their issues.

With all due respect, work this out with God and stop pressuring Gentiles to understand or be part of the Old Covenant WE were NEVER under.

We are not placing ourselves there. We are brought there by others.

P.S. Don't bring this up to a Greek vs Hebrew issue. It is not about philosophy but language. We are well aware that you are comparing OT & Old Covenant. With NT & New Covenant. It is very transparent.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Also. Can someone answer my earlier questions ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dave-W]

Excuse me for coming in to your conversation but I think it is the opposite.
Jesus moved us forward from the OT.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

With all due respect, work this out with God and stop pressuring Gentiles to understand or be part of the Old Covenant WE were NEVER under.
We are not placing ourselves there. We are brought there by others.

How exactly am I pressuring YOU as a gentile in this matter, by saying that Jews STILL have to keep the Law? (but NOT the gentiles?)

P.S. Don't bring this up to a Greek vs Hebrew issue. It is not about philosophy but language. We are well aware that you are comparing OT & Old Covenant. With NT & New Covenant. It is very transparent.

I have no intent to obfuscate. I seek to be above board on this.

I am not trying to bind up anything on Gentile Christians. But what I want to do is to blast the false presentation of the NT that makes it entirely a start-from-scratch do-over. (part of the classic heresy of Marcionism)

The NT has great harmony with the OT. IT is a continuation and update of the OT. Both testaments were written by Jews. Most of their audiences were Jewish (including the NT) But that cannot be seen if approached from a Greek/Roman mindset. The NT can only be properly understood and appreciated if one has a firm grasp on the OT. Then and ONLY then can one say with the author of Hebrews: "He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." (8.6) How do you really know its better? (at a gut level, not an intellectual one)

 

[Dave-W]

Can someone against OSAS explain how the believer would lose the Holy Spirit?

I am not entirely against OSAS. I see it as the biblical norm - just as once married always married is supposed to be the biblical norm. But we all know that does not always happen.

Because we are 'sealed' by the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant UNTIL the Day of Redemption. The Holy Spirit TESTIFIES with our spirit we are Christ's Own! So who can remove us out of Jesus Christ's right hand after the Father has given us to Christ?

Since we have free will, we ourselves can repeatedly violate the covenant and renounce it.

So can someone please explain how the New Covenant is broken?
When the Holy Spirit leaves a believer?
Who breaks the Covenant?
Surely not God.

No, not God. Us.

But if a true believer goes against the voice of God; ("Today if you hear his voice do not harden your heart..." Heb 3.15) eventually they can start following other things that God. They could "convert" to islam or Orthodox Judaism which would include a renouncing of Jesus as God, renounce baptism, etc. IOW they make a new covenant with a false god. At that point the Holy Spirit would leave and they would lose their salvation.

IMO it takes something as drastic as a direct renunciation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

And ...... What?

We have been given two commandments by Jesus that fulfill ALL OF THE LAW.

Matthew 22:35-39
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him [a question], testing Him, 36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Again. A Hebrew issue. Talk to Jesus and see why He brought Jew and Gentile together under the New Covenant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

How exactly am I pressuring YOU as a gentile in this matter, by saying that Jews STILL have to keep the Law? (but NOT the gentiles?)

Your talking about how God formed the OT around Hebrew revelations,not Hebrew revelations being formed by Hebrews.

OSAS is a New Covenant topic, no? No salvation under Christ until the New Covenant. The New Covenant does not point back to the Old. The Old Covenant always pointed the New Covenant. Messiah. God with us

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am not entirely against OSAS. I see it as the biblical norm - just as once married always married is supposed to be the biblical norm. But we all know that does not always happen.

Then you missed my whole post a few pages back. Whoosh ~

Because salvation is what God says it is in His Word. We do not make the Bible, the Bible makes us.

 

[Dave-W]

And ...... What?

Fulfill does not mean abolish.

We have been given two commandments by Jesus that fulfill ALL OF THE LAW.

Rabbi Hillel in the previous century said the exact same thing. Hillel and Shammai started the 2 main schools of Pharasaism in Jerusalem in the late first century bc. It was said that a Roman Centurion came into Shammai's school and ordered him "Teach me your Torah while I stand here on one foot." (Torah = 5 books of Moses) Shammai threw him out of the house. So he went to Hillel and demanded the same. Hillel looked at him for a moment and then said "Love God with your whole mind, soul and strength; and Love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is just commentary."