Faith is not taking credit but believing God and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. No Christian is his right mind takes *credit* for believing God.
Upvote
0
If you followed OSAS...
- Thread starter HannahElizaW
- Start date
Matthew Twentyfour
Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Because the word faith has multiple meanings in the bible. Faith is mainly associated with obedience.
James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Hebrews 11:8-9
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
When told to leave Haran, Abraham obeyed and headed for the promised land.
Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
When told to sacrifice Isaac, he obeyed.
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
When God told Noah to build an ark, he obeyed and saved his family.
Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
When told to offer his best sheep as sacrifice, Abel gave God his best.
Hebrews 11:24-25
24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
When told to lead the Jews out of Egypt, as much as Moses hated to take the job, he obeyed.
Upvote
0
Faith is certainly associated with obedience, but faith is faith, and obedience is obedience. Faith should properly lead to obedience, but you cannot confuse and confound the two, since Scripture will not allow it. Even the Greek words are not interchangeable, neither are the English words.
Upvote
0
Matthew Twentyfour
Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
You have to read everything in the chapter of the bible where the verse alone uses the word faith, otherwise you would mistaken when God tells you to be obedient and do something while you think it's merely means just believing and doing nothing will make for a mistaken interpretation of the bible. And concerning salvation, that's a costly mistake.
Upvote
0
Ok. So I will follow your train of thought here. I'm looking at 1 Corinthians 1:18 in context (verses before, verses after) and this is what I see. and I'm going to highlight the parts I find meaningful as I consider how you used 1 Cor 1:18n (your above post).
1 Corinthians 1:10-24
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house ] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
So, I think that this passage is saying what I said. That just because it is SEEN as foolishness, does NOT STOP our preaching the gospel. Some will get it. I've see it happen over and over.
Now Paul says Christ called him to what? Preach the gospel. Paul makes that clear when he says not baptism.
I think that your quote above means the OPPOSITE of what you stated, and that it VALIDATES MY POINT.
Does that make sense?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Matthew Twentyfour
Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Hi Hannah,
Please read post#131 on page 7. Your salvation is very much dependant upon your good works. Paul's argument on works of the law is not what many Christians think being the 10 commandments. You do have to do the commandments. Paul encouraged it too as the scriptures in post#131 indicated. I'll explain in another post.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Matthew Twentyfour
Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Do you know what Matthew 18:5-6 is about? It's referring to those leading others upon a false grace doctrine. Unless you know with absolute certainty of the gospel, it's best to keep quiet. I suggest you also read post#131 as you don't believe in works but Paul clearly indicated works as mandatory to one's salvation. You just need to figure what works he was arguing against. And you're running out of time too as the start of the tribulation isn't far away.
Upvote
0
Matthew Twentyfour
Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Are you following the gospel of Christ in the bible or are you following the gospel of Christ created by the reformers of the 16th century the likes of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jacobus Arminius, Phillip Melanchthon, Thomas Muntzer and Menno Simmons? There's a false grace message that's affected huge portion of the church if you didn't know.
You should do some investigation of where it came from if you value your salvation.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
aiki
Regular Member
Do you know what a soft libertarian view of free will is? Well, that's the view I take on free will. I am not a determinist.
Apparently, you did not look at any contemporary writing on Molinism because if you had, you'd know in its modern form Molinism is extremely bibilcal. Try informing yourself: www.reasonablefaith.org or read "Salvation and Sovereignty: A Molinist Approach" by Kenneth Keathley.
Oh, I see. Now you're equivocating. Every writer of the Bible was concerned about holy, righteous living. Every one of them in some measure wrote about righteousness. No writer of the New Testament, however, taught that works are necessary to salvation. That's a false teaching of the very worst sort. Yes, Paul writes about good works. I already noted that in my last post. What I challenged you to show is that he taught works-salvation, which he most certainly does not.
That you use this passage surprises me for it confounds a works-salvation view utterly!
"...it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast." As Paul explains here, good works do not obtain the gift of God's salvation, although good works are a fundamental part of living as a saved person.
You have lifted this verse out of its context. Do you know to whom it was that Paul wrote these words? Context will reveal to you that Paul was describing an Old Testament (and a hypocritical) mind-set here. He goes on in the next chapter to explain a New Testament understanding of righteousness:
Romans 3:19-26
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Is not circumcision a commandment of the Law of God? Yes, it is. But Paul says this commandment is nothing. And then he says keeping the commandments of God is what matters. Is Paul schizophrenic? Is he contradicting himself here? Why this seeming contradiction? Do you know? As it stands, this verse both supports and denies the value of works. Kind of an odd choice of proof texts so far...
No mention here of works saving anyone...
No mention in either of these verses of a works-salvation doctrine, either.
All of the rest of the passages you've cited do nothing more than urge righteous living. Not one of them teaches that salvation comes by way of good works. As I said, I know you cannot establish works-salvation from the Bible - at least, not without twisting Scripture first.
Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Selah.
Upvote
0
Ok. Well Paul didn't do anything a Pharisee couldn't do. Really as long as Paul was born again then he could have stayed such.
As a matter of fact, Paul would have been more of a good apostle to the Pharisee's and Jews. But God didn't send Paul, He sent Peter. Maybe that one thing would have changed it all and brought all the sheep back.
So far God hasn't brought the Jewish people back to Him. So God has got exactly what He wants and wills. Then His will is to not have His chosen people and if His chosen people aren't chosen, then none are chosen.
Jesus had to go First to the Jew, than the Gentile.
So maybe it's not our turn yet?
How do the Jews fit in? Cause they're not coming, so did God stop calling or break his covenant with them? Are we in and they're out?
Because if God broke the Old Covenant than He may break the New Covenant. Which would make both null and void til God would be what He said He is. So is He up to it?
So then should we wait for God to fulfill the former before He takes on more?
The Jewish people and their covenant is throwing me off.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
...which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
JLB
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Sorry, but Paul wrote this to the Church, not the world.
His warning is to Christians who practice the works of the flesh.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.Galatians 5:19-21
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
JLB
Upvote
0
South Bound
I stand with Israel.
That's a touchy subject here. On ChristianForums, if someone has doubts about their salvation, you have to affirm them and tell them, "why, of course you're saved! That's just the Devil trying to make you doubt God!" or else you get an infraction for suggesting that they might not be saved and that their doubts might actually have a legitimate cause and may, in fact, be a prompting from the Holy Spirit to get right with God.
I actually got an infraction once for trying to counsel somebody here who doubted his salvation. I guess they're rather he go to Hell assured of his salvation, than to take the chance that he might actually take the opportunity to examine himself and make his calling and election sure. You know, like the Bible tells us to.
But if somebody came to me in my church and said that, the first thing I would do would be to point out that the Bible gives us four primary criteria by which we can know we are saved:
1. Their testimony
2. Their doctrine
3. Their fruit
4. Their sanctification
I would go over # 1,3-4 with them (not that their doctrine isn't important, it's just that the situation calls for more emphasis on 1, 3-4 right now. We can deal with #2 later.)
Under testimony, I would talk to him about whether or not there was a time when he understood that he was an enemy of God because of his sin, and was in danger of God's wrath. I would then ask him if there was a time he repented of his sin and trusted Christ and let him tell me about that.
I would talk to him about what it means to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us and what it means to receive a new nature when we're born again.
Under "fruit", I would ask him about his sin, what he's done about it, how he sees it, how he thinks God sees it, if he's repented of it, what he's doing to bring that area of his life under submission to Christ.
We all "struggle" with sin, but the question is, do we hate our sin? Are we warring with it or giving in to it and just asking forgiveness later?
I would then take him through 1 John, where it talks about the difference between someone who sins because they gave in to temptation in a momentary moral lapse, and someone who is actively serving sin.
If he's not repentant, then I would share the Gospel with him and call him to repent.
If he is, then we move on to stage 2, which is sharing the multitude of Bible verses about God's assurance and His faithfulness.
Upvote
0
Rick Otto
The Dude Abides
- Nov 19, 2002
- 34,112
- 7,406
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Hmm. I don't have this perfect, but let me try...
Well, somebody had to be chosen to set an example.
I use Romans 9:22-23 as a guide for determining purpose of specifics.
So I see Israel as the teaching tool.
First we had to learn what salvation is in order to value it.
I think the example was as much to show us what it isn't.
It isn't dependant on our understanding or efforts, although those have an appropriate place. And it isn't dependant on pedigree, although that has a meaningful and appropriate place as well, in the story.
"Salvation is of Israel" was the understanding, but Paul redefined Israel as all believers when he said, " Not all who are of Israel, are Israel."
Maybe that helps a little?
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Similar threads
