If You Don't Celebrate Christmas, Why Not?

[roamer_1]

Well, the acquisition of the Holy Spirit has always been and will always be the aim of the Christian Life (The aim of the Christian Life).

Yaright, but to y'all Spirit is real - visceral (for wont of a better word), substantive... That kind of thing is the domain of Pentecostals and charismatics on my side of the fence - basically Pentecostals, some strains of Baptists, the SDA... Most of the other protestant strains reject that visceral sense...

I admire that in you (y'all). Finding Christians who are even aware of the reality of the other side of the veil is a very rare thing, not to mention being able to be filled with the Spirit and/or stand against the demonic.

 

[truefiction1]

Christedom has been taking 'the House of Judah' and The House of Israel' out of context all the way along.



No... two distinct and separate physical entities, Ephraim and Judah, else one must throw out more than half of prophecy (which many are wont to do)

The two houses are what it's all about.

The Church has always... and truly always... seen every prophecy, story, and condition of Scripture as preparing for and pointing to Christ (the Bridegroom) and to His Church (the Bride: Israel). The Church reads the Old Testament in Light of the New Testament, and always has. There isn't anything that I can personally do to change this. I'm certainly not going to follow the trend of reading the New Testament in Light of the Old Testament, as those people who have started or joined the messianic movement that has appeared only recently (in the later part of the last century), and which is essentially a revival of the ancient "Judaizing" heresy.

I guess there is a certain Orthodox priest who was a prominent member of "Jews for Jesus" who authored a book titled "Surprised by Christ". Father James Bernstein is his name, I believe. I haven't read it so I don't know why he chose to become Orthodox.

 

[truefiction1]

Yaright, but to y'all Spirit is real - visceral (for wont of a better word), substantive... That kind of thing is the domain of Pentecostals and charismatics on my side of the fence - basically Pentecostals, some strains of Baptists, the SDA... Most of the other protestant strains reject that visceral sense...

I admire that in you (y'all). Finding Christians who are even aware of the reality of the other side of the veil is a very rare thing, not to mention being able to be filled with the Spirit and/or stand against the demonic.

The visceral sense is what the holy spiritual guides would inform us is not really spiritual experience, but carnal. Being in the Holy Spirit is not like this. As for demons, of course they are real, even the most inexperienced and sinful of ascetics, like myself, have to be exposed to their wiles and even their temptation through overt communications, by means of which they try to get us to enter into dialogue and eventually, spiritual intercourse with them.

 

[roamer_1]

The Church has always... and truly always... seen every prophecy, story, and condition of Scripture as preparing for and pointing to Christ (the Bridegroom) and to His Church (the Bride: Israel).

Yes, the Bride IS Israel - The House of Israel - One of the longest running prophecies there is. Who is the barren woman of Is 54, instructed to leap for joy just after the Is 53 death of Messiah? There is only one answer, and that changes everything...

The Church reads the Old Testament in Light of the New Testament, and always has. There isn't anything that I can personally do to change this.

Me neither. But it isn't right. It would be if 'the church' didn't think it had the right to change that which is unchangeable, but then, power corrupts. Always, when it comes to men.

I'm certainly not going to follow the trend of reading the New Testament in Light of the Old Testament, as those people who have started or joined the messianic movement that has appeared only recently (in the later part of the last century), and which is essentially a revival of the ancient "Judaizing" heresy.

I am no Judaizer. There is nothing prerequisite to my salvation but the very Blood that saves me... Nothing. That is not why I keep Torah.

 

[roamer_1]

The visceral sense is what the holy spiritual guides would inform us is not really spiritual experience, but carnal. Being in the Holy Spirit is not like this.

As I said, visceral, for wont of a better word - visceral in the sense of real, tangible, not carnal... perhaps 'palpable' is a better term.

As for demons, of course they are real, even the most inexperienced and sinful of ascetics, like myself, have to be exposed to their wiles and even their temptation through overt communications, by means of which they try to get us to enter into dialogue and eventually, spiritual intercourse with them.

And as I said, a rare quality to find. Most ignore the profane, and attribute 'idols' to money, football, and etc.. which is true too, I suppose, but only in the most pedestrian sense. The influence of demons, and the profane system that bows to them is very very real, and vast as can be.

It is my estimation that the church, in the most generic sense, is largely ignorant of what it must face, all too soon.

 

[truefiction1]

As I said, visceral, for wont of a better word - visceral in the sense of real, tangible, not carnal... perhaps 'palpable' is a better term.

Okay, I related the term visceral to the "viscera", which is where we experience sensations of emotion, like the other animals. That sort of spirituality is not spirituality at all. It is sensual and sentimental and tainted with sinful passion. I thought that you were referring to the pseudo spirituality of some Christian groups who mostly show signs of being the victims of spiritual deception, as opposed to the real spirituality of those who are in Christ.

And as I said, a rare quality to find. Most ignore the profane, and attribute 'idols' to money, football, and etc.. which is true too, I suppose, but only in the most pedestrian sense. The influence of demons, and the profane system that bows to them is very very real, and vast as can be.

It is my estimation that the church, in the most generic sense, is largely ignorant of what it must face, all too soon.

We are hearing you loud and clear. You'll not be disagreed with by any members of the Orthodox Church who've given themselves wholly to the business of repentance.

 

[roamer_1]

Okay, I related the term visceral to the "viscera", which is where we experience sensations of emotion, like the other animals. That sort of spirituality is not spirituality at all. It is sensual and sentimental and tainted with sinful passion. I thought that you were referring to the pseudo spirituality of some Christian groups who mostly show signs of being the victims of spiritual deception, as opposed to the real spirituality of those who are in Christ.

The Pentecostals get a bad rap - Like anything I guess, what you focus on is going to be where the problems are - Doctrine based organizations mess up in doctrinal ways... praise based organizations take praise too far... And the Spirit based attract a lot of spiritual noise.

Yeah, they got preachers dressed like Elvis, and snake handlers and such... But that's along the fringe. the mainstream in that bend, the more conservative, deal very well with Spiritual problems, to include demonic possession.

I have never understood the complicated and formulaic response of the Catholics (as an instance) in that vein... The Spirit filled get lit up and tell the damned thing to get out. And it does.

I don't see that elsewhere.

We are hearing you loud and clear. You'll not be disagreed with by any members of the Orthodox Church who've given themselves wholly to the business of repentance.

10-4

 

[jamespyles]

I think that we are forgetting that a Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, not outwardly. If we make being a Jew all about genetics (race) and religious observances, then we have extracted verses about the Jews and about Israel out of the context of the Gospel. I'm not going to claim that you don't make good points. I just think that how "Jew", and "Israel" are defined in the Gospel of the Kingdom are largely metaphors for Jews and gentiles alike who worship Jesus as God the Word. For Paul states all of these things about his people, (these teachings of Paul actually being what I was referring to when I alluded to them in an earlier post) yet He also says "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise."

The prophecy does not say that ten Jews grasp the cross of a Gentile Christian. Why? because the Jews are the one's grasping the crosses. (1 Corinthians 1:23).

Regarding the "Messianic" times, I suppose that you are talking about the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of time? Given Christ's own description of how this will be for us, it would seem that our most pressing concern should be whether we are "Jewish" inwardly (in Communion with God in the Holy Spirit). There seems to be no indication that one's genetic inheritance will play a significant part in how we'll spend eternity in the fullness of God (when God shall become all in all) -- which is unspeakable joy to some yet unbearable torment to others.

Those verses, especially Romans 2:29, have been used by the Church to beat up Jews and delegitimize their claim to the covenant promises for nearly 20 centuries. I've examined Romans quite a bit. Here's what I wrote about Romans 2:25-29 a while back:

If a Jew fails to perform a mitzvah, does he stop being a Jew? Does he become “uncircumcised?” This used to puzzle me. The whole “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh” thing has been used to justify calling Christians “spiritual Jews” and to support the old, tired theology of supersessionism. But I don’t think that’s what Paul is saying.

Paul is trying to inspire zeal for the Torah and for faith in Messiah in his non-believing Jewish brothers in Rome. How would he do that by insulting them and rejecting them? Worse, how would he do that by denigrating the Torah? He couldn’t.

But he could be saying that a Jew is justified before God if he is outwardly a Jew, that is, if he is obedient to the commandments, and if he is inwardly a Jew, that is, if he has faith in God and that faith is the motivation for obedience. The two go together…faith and works.

The full blog post is here: Reflections on Romans 1 and 2

Modern New Testament scholars are re-examining Paul's letters and considering a Paul that operated as an observant Jewish teacher and apostle within Judaism rather than a Jewish apostate who invented a new religion called "Christianity." You might want to read Mark Nanos' scholarly treatment of Romans "The Mystery of Romans" and the volume edited by Nanos and Magnus Zetterholm, "Paul Within Judaism: Restoring the First Century Context to the Apostle".

Replacing Israel with the Church is not only Biblically unsustainable, it's an archaic method of Biblical interpretation deeply rooted in anti-Jewish and anti-Israel Church tradition.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Those verses, especially Romans 2:29, have been used by the Church to beat up Jews and delegitimize their claim to the covenant promises for nearly 20 centuries. I've examined Romans quite a bit. Here's what I wrote about Romans 2:25-29 a while back:

If a Jew fails to perform a mitzvah, does he stop being a Jew? Does he become “uncircumcised?” This used to puzzle me. The whole “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh” thing has been used to justify calling Christians “spiritual Jews” and to support the old, tired theology of supersessionism. But I don’t think that’s what Paul is saying.

Paul is trying to inspire zeal for the Torah and for faith in Messiah in his non-believing Jewish brothers in Rome. How would he do that by insulting them and rejecting them? Worse, how would he do that by denigrating the Torah? He couldn’t.

But he could be saying that a Jew is justified before God if he is outwardly a Jew, that is, if he is obedient to the commandments, and if he is inwardly a Jew, that is, if he has faith in God and that faith is the motivation for obedience. The two go together…faith and works.

The full blog post is here: Reflections on Romans 1 and 2

Modern New Testament scholars are re-examining Paul's letters and considering a Paul that operated as an observant Jewish teacher and apostle within Judaism rather than a Jewish apostate who invented a new religion called "Christianity." You might want to read Mark Nanos' scholarly treatment of Romans "The Mystery of Romans" and the volume edited by Nanos and Magnus Zetterholm, "Paul Within Judaism: Restoring the First Century Context to the Apostle".

Replacing Israel with the Church is not only Biblically unsustainable, it's an archaic method of Biblical interpretation deeply rooted in anti-Jewish and anti-Israel Church tradition.

The Church does not replace Israel and Judaism...it continues it through Yeshua.

 

[truefiction1]

Those verses, especially Romans 2:29, have been used by the Church to beat up Jews and delegitimize their claim to the covenant promises for nearly 20 centuries. I've examined Romans quite a bit. Here's what I wrote about Romans 2:25-29 a while back:

If a Jew fails to perform a mitzvah, does he stop being a Jew? Does he become “uncircumcised?” This used to puzzle me. The whole “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh” thing has been used to justify calling Christians “spiritual Jews” and to support the old, tired theology of supersessionism. But I don’t think that’s what Paul is saying.

Paul is trying to inspire zeal for the Torah and for faith in Messiah in his non-believing Jewish brothers in Rome. How would he do that by insulting them and rejecting them? Worse, how would he do that by denigrating the Torah? He couldn’t.

But he could be saying that a Jew is justified before God if he is outwardly a Jew, that is, if he is obedient to the commandments, and if he is inwardly a Jew, that is, if he has faith in God and that faith is the motivation for obedience. The two go together…faith and works.

The full blog post is here: Reflections on Romans 1 and 2

Modern New Testament scholars are re-examining Paul's letters and considering a Paul that operated as an observant Jewish teacher and apostle within Judaism rather than a Jewish apostate who invented a new religion called "Christianity." You might want to read Mark Nanos' scholarly treatment of Romans "The Mystery of Romans" and the volume edited by Nanos and Magnus Zetterholm, "Paul Within Judaism: Restoring the First Century Context to the Apostle".

Replacing Israel with the Church is not only Biblically unsustainable, it's an archaic method of Biblical interpretation deeply rooted in anti-Jewish and anti-Israel Church tradition.

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46)

I'll dwell upon these words of the Lord as they pertain to all of us.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Shabbat Shalom guys, see ya on Sunday!

 

[truefiction1]

Shabbat Shalom guys, see ya on Sunday!

Христос родился!!!

 

[MessianicMichael]

We do not celebrate Christmas for the same reasons the Pilgrims didn't.

 

[jamespyles]

We do not celebrate Christmas for the same reasons the Pilgrims didn't.

"They for whom all days are holy can have no holiday." -A common Puritan maxim

Interesting, but that philosophy tends to run counter to the Holy days God did initiate such as Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Христос родился!!!

Славим Его!

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Church does not replace Israel and Judaism...it continues it through Yeshua.

Yes it does, but those in Judaism do not like the changes that God made in the New Covenant. So they go back to the Old Covenant that they feel they had their special place in because they don't like that God included Gentiles in the New Covenant. It's like with Christ they lost control.

We don't push them out. They would rather be in their Torah and talking about the Patriarch's and prophets. They do not worship Christ with the reverence that we do, but that is IMHO and I am not speaking for everyone at all.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yaright, but to y'all Spirit is real - visceral (for wont of a better word), substantive... That kind of thing is the domain of Pentecostals and charismatics on my side of the fence - basically Pentecostals, some strains of Baptists, the SDA... Most of the other protestant strains reject that visceral sense...

I admire that in you (y'all). Finding Christians who are even aware of the reality of the other side of the veil is a very rare thing, not to mention being able to be filled with the Spirit and/or stand against the demonic.

Every believer in Christ has the Holy Spirit, Pentecostals and Charismatics just believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to their congregation through people rather than say prayer or singing. So it is much more noticeable and there worship and service is centered around communication with the Holy Spirit (I know that sounds wierd, but it's not).

 

[roamer_1]

Every believer in Christ has the Holy Spirit, Pentecostals and Charismatics just believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to their congregation through people rather than say prayer or singing. So it is much more noticeable and there worship and service is centered around communication with the Holy Spirit (I know that sounds wierd, but it's not).

Doesn't sound weird to me, as I am charismatic, having had visions since my youth - But I was not speaking only of the Holy Spirit, but rather, of the entire spiritual realm, both divine and profane... The entire spiritual enchilada, which lies just on the other side of the veil.

Modern Christianity ignores the spiritual realm with great abandon, that men can be granted prophecy, or healing, or of the feats of the demonic, and the people who serve them, which are far more common than Christianity can muster it's courage to believe.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Doesn't sound weird to me, as I am charismatic, having had visions since my youth - But I was not speaking only of the Holy Spirit, but rather, of the entire spiritual realm, both divine and profane... The entire spiritual enchilada, which lies just on the other side of the veil.

Modern Christianity ignores the spiritual realm with great abandon, that men can be granted prophecy, or healing, or of the feats of the demonic, and the people who serve them, which are far more common than Christianity can muster it's courage to believe.

And the flip side of that coin is .... some may say that Pentecostals and Charismatics only want to do the miraculous feats that Christ did and brag about what they do in the Spirit, when it is the Holy Spirit only who decides who receives what gifts, so the only thing you are doing is what God intended you to do.

Without the gift of the Spirit, you are nothing.

To them, without tongues or demons, God is boring. They call every other congregation 'dead' so they can feel that theirs are 'alive' with Christ when others are not. So they must have God proven to them with the gifts of the Spirit otherwise maybe they might not believe in the 'dead' congregations God.

I've heard both sides of that coin. A lot. There is just as much braggery in those churches with much less evangelism. So let's not get it twisted here.

Plus if God chooses not to give them a gift of the Spirit that is active in the Spirit, maybe God decided that. Maybe they should do their calling and not worry about others. I don't know, just thinking out loud here a little.

It's a very tiresome back and forth and we all need to chill out and do the work of God, whatever the calling. Amen?

 

[roamer_1]

And the flip side of that coin is .... some may say that Pentecostals and Charismatics only want to do the miraculous feats that Christ did and brag about what they do in the Spirit, when it is the Holy Spirit only who decides who receives what gifts, so the only thing you are doing is what God intended you to do.

Without the gift of the Spirit, you are nothing.

As I said upthread, the sins of the Pentecostals tend to be against the Spirit, because the Spirit is where their focus is - Where they're likely to be pushing the envelope.

To them, without tongues or demons, God is boring. They call every other congregation 'dead' so they can feel that theirs are 'alive' with Christ when others are not. So they must have God proven to them with the gifts of the Spirit otherwise maybe they might not believe in the 'dead' congregations God.

I don't see that at all, in general. Pentecostals feel like they are on the front lines (and they are), and wish that the other disciplines would join the battle (which they won't).

In that the Bible says the gifts of the Spirit are how to identify the Church proper, the Pentecostals are right in saying the other branches are dead. The gifts naturally follow where the Spirit is.

I've heard both sides of that coin. A lot. There is just as much braggery in those churches with much less evangelism. So let's not get it twisted here.

I don't think ANY discipleship is without their braggarts, not a single one. And I'll defend the Pentecostals wrt Evangelicalism - Assemblies of God sports a huge missionary outreach - Especially in South America and China.

Plus if God chooses not to give them a gift of the Spirit that is active in the Spirit, maybe God decided that. Maybe they should do their calling and not worry about others. I don't know, just thinking out loud here a little.

It's a very tiresome back and forth and we all need to chill out and do the work of God, whatever the calling. Amen?

To a degree, I will agree. Different strokes. My mother requires the staid and steady conservatism of the Presbyterians. She is a fish out of water in the highly charged praise-based non-denom Evangelicals or the Spirit-based Pentecostals... She's a Covenant gal, and will die that way. But my eldest son needs that praise environment. My younger sister is leaning Pentecostal, with her advocacy of Calvary or SBA Baptist groups... And I prefer the pasture to the pens, and even the wilderness beyond the pasture. Where the Shepherd leads, I will follow (or rather, strain at the leash, barking at skwerls... It's my thing.).

But there is only ONE Body. That much of Christendom now boldly stands *for* that which the Bible calls abominations, is all the sign I need to show me that Christendom is quickly becoming the very thing it was raised up to fight against. The goes-along-gets-along homogeneity of modern Christianity is not the Gospel... This is not the light of the world. That light flickers and gutters, nearly smothered by the mundane beige of the borg..,

It is doom.