If You Don't Celebrate Christmas, Why Not?

[truefiction1]

Except, provably, nothing about your 'nativity' day is true.
And the words of an ancient antisemitic (if they are even his words) should influence me how?

Our minds have been so darkened by the fall that we can scarcely tell good from evil, and many are deceived about the nature of those who are God's true servants. We can't see things and people as they truly are without the light of God. This takes repentance the likes of which few endeavor to undertake. It is the narrow Way of denying oneself, of losing one's life in this world so that Eternal Life is found: "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

If they called Christ a blasphemer, and a servant is not greater than his Master, then why wouldn't Christ's servant be called an anti-semitic, just because he denounced those who were obeying the directives of demons to introduce various lies and practices that would bring spiritual ruin to many members of the Church entrusted to his care as bishop?

 

[roamer_1]

Our minds have been so darkened by the fall that we can scarcely tell good from evil, and many are deceived about the nature of those who are God's true servants. We can't see things and people as they truly are without the light of God. This takes repentance the likes of which few endeavor to undertake.

It takes Torah. It takes recognizing what YHWH has set apart. It takes knowing not to blend that which is set apart with that which s common or profane.

Once knowing particularly, that which is not lawful, then one can repent. Then one can seek out the Father, and learn of the Son. Then one can find mercy.

Law is for criminals. Citizens are not affected by the law, because they keep it by nature. They KEEP IT, naturally. That is where Yeshua leads. That is the narrow way.

Torah cannot be done away. Without Torah there is no more definition of sin. Without a definition of sin, there is no knowledge of sin, and there can be no repentance. Without repentance, there can be no grace, and without grace, no salvation.

We are where we are precisely because no one teaches the difference between clean and unclean. No one shows the fault of blending the set apart with the common and profane. Purity has become subjective, as has sin.

There is only one place to find the parameters and definitions. Anyone teaching otherwise adds to the problem.

We are to rise above Torah - to keep it naturally - not ignore it.
We are to desire the things of YHWH naturally, not make up new things.

.
It is the narrow Way of denying oneself, of losing one's life in this world so that Eternal Life is found: "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

TRUE.

If they called Christ a blasphemer, and a servant is not greater than his Master, then why wouldn't Christ's servant be called an anti-semitic, just because he denounced those who were obeying the directives of demons to introduce various lies and practices that would bring spiritual ruin to many members of the Church entrusted to his care as bishop?

The thing I know to be true is that Yeshua in no way blasphemed.
That the 'church' became virulently antisemitic is historical fact..

 

[sparow]

No, the Church, not the pope or any bishop, is the Body of Christ. Christ is the head of His Body, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of His Body, the Church. Therefore, the Church is kept in the Truth by the Power of God. John Chrysostom was a part of the Body. There are countless others whose true faith is attested to by the Power of God. To those who are called and chosen by God, He reveals His Power and signs and wonders.

When Christ returns what do you think will return and at what point did it leave; you seem to be taking metaphors literally.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." (Homily I, I, 5) -- St. John Chrysostom

"But before I draw up my battle line against the Jews, I will be glad to talk to those who are members of our own body, those who seem to belong to our ranks although they observe the Jewish rites and make every effort to defend them. Because they do this, as I see it, they deserve a stronger condemnation than any Jew." (Homily IV, II, 4) -- St. John Chrysostom

"they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."

My problem with this, and I understand why he was saying these things AT THAT TIME, is that he is also condemning Yeshua, the Apostles and many early Church Saints who DID do just that...they were JEWS. Were they all, all of a sudden heretics now because Chrysostom said so?

 

[roamer_1]

My problem with this, and I understand why he was saying these things AT THAT TIME, is that he is also condemning Yeshua, the Apostles and many early Church Saints who DID do just that...they were JEWS. Were they all, all of a sudden heretics now because Chrysostom said so?

And therein lies the absolute disconnect. The transformation from a sect of Judaism to a Neo-Grecian priesthood is impossible.

Paul preached primarily from synagogues - Do you REALLY believe what he was preaching there was so very unlike Judaism as to be compatible with EO/Roman doctrines?

Not_a_chance.

 

[1John2:4]

"The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now." (Homily I, I, 5) -- St. John Chrysostom

"But before I draw up my battle line against the Jews, I will be glad to talk to those who are members of our own body, those who seem to belong to our ranks although they observe the Jewish rites and make every effort to defend them. Because they do this, as I see it, they deserve a stronger condemnation than any Jew." (Homily IV, II, 4) -- St. John Chrysostom

Contemporary Miracles of St. John Chrysostom | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

"they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."

This anti-Semitic writings of the early church fathers is horrible. They had so much distain for the Jews which lead to much genocide! The Moedim belong to God not just the Jews they are His holy days and we are to honor and respect them. The oricicles of God were given to the Jews to be a light to the nations. First to the Jew then to the gentiles.

 

[truefiction1]

My problem with this, and I understand why he was saying these things AT THAT TIME, is that he is also condemning Yeshua, the Apostles and many early Church Saints who DID do just that...they were JEWS. Were they all, all of a sudden heretics now because Chrysostom said so?

At that time, the Church of Constantinople was not keeping Jewish feasts. The Church had previously established her own feasts well before then. It was not Chrysostom who had done this. He was guarding the Tradition that had been given him. The Nativity feast is an ancient feast of the Church. Jewish customs (including the exact dates upon which Biblical events are celebrated) are not binding on the other Churches unless declared by the Church in Ecumenical Council. Feast days of the Church can be and have been established by the authority of the Whole Church. Why do these who reject the Church insist on calling "unclean that which the Lord has made clean"? Sure, unbelievers celebrate the feast for no good reason, and Christians in name celebrate it wrongly. But that does not invalidate the feast any more than those who receive the Eucharist without proper preparation invalidate it.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And therein lies the absolute disconnect. The transformation from a sect of Judaism to a Neo-Grecian priesthood is impossible.

Paul preached primarily from synagogues - Do you REALLY believe what he was preaching there was so very unlike Judaism as to be compatible with EO/Roman doctrines?

Not_a_chance.

I don't think it was a "disconnect". The early Church was predominately made up of Jewish believers within the context of second Temple Judaism. As gentiles entered in, and less and less Jews entered, it became more gentile based by necessity, especially after the destruction of the Temple and after 135 AD. Certain traditions formed that were absent in earlier years. My problem is that some treat these new traditions as supplanting anything that was done previously, especially for Jewish believers who were the foundation of the Faith. You want Jewish believers to only carry your new traditions yet you will not let them keep any of their own traditions that came before you. You can only understand Chrysostom within the context of the time he lived in.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

At that time, the Church of Constantinople was not keeping Jewish feasts. The Church had previously established her own feasts well before then. It was not Chrysostom who had done this. He was guarding the Tradition that had been given him. The Nativity feast is an ancient feast of the Church. Jewish customs (including the exact dates upon which Biblical events are celebrated) are not binding on the other Churches unless declared by the Church in Ecumenical Council. Feast days of the Church can be and have been established by the authority of the Whole Church. Why do these who reject the Church insist on calling "unclean that which the Lord has made clean"? Sure, unbelievers celebrate the feast for no good reason, and Christians in name celebrate it wrongly. But that does not invalidate the feast any more than those who receive the Eucharist without proper preparation invalidate it.

Pascha is a Jewish feast called Pesakh fulfilled by Yeshua. Pentecost is a Jewish feast called Shavuot, fulfilled by Yeshua/Holy Spirit. The Church in Constantinople was celebrating these feasts. My point has nothing to do with Christmas nor were Chrysostom's statements.

 

[roamer_1]

I don't think it was a "disconnect". The early Church was predominately made up of Jewish believers within the context of second Temple Judaism. As gentiles entered in, and less and less Jews entered, it became more gentile based by necessity, especially after the destruction of the Temple and after 135 AD. Certain traditions formed that were absent in earlier years. My problem is that some treat these new traditions as supplanting anything that was done previously, especially for Jewish believers who were the foundation of the Faith. You want Jewish believers to only carry your new traditions yet you will not let them keep any of their own traditions that came before you. You can only understand Chrysostom within the context of the time he lived in.

Then syncretism, pure and simple.

I don't know what happened - the hazy record between 70 AD and 250AD leaves nothing but impressions, and even those, barely recorded...

What came out the other end was Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism - Neither of which resemble what Yeshua and his congregation exampled.

 

[jamespyles]

I have experiential knowledge that the fullness of grace can be found within the Church. That does not mean that I believe for a second that it cannot exist elsewhere.

I have felt the presence of God both in the Church and in the Synagogue.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Then syncretism, pure and simple.

I don't know what happened - the hazy record between 70 AD and 250AD leaves nothing but impressions, and even those, barely recorded...

What came out the other end was Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism - Neither of which resemble what Yeshua and his congregation exampled.

I don't think it was really syncretism, maybe a result of what happened during that time when both were trying to keep things alive without The Temple and really both separating more and more from each other because of belief or no belief in Yeshua. It was inevitable on both ends at some point. Things evolved on both ends. You had Rabbinic Jews saying similar things regarding Christians at the time. So it is today...Jews who believe in Yeshua are stuck in the middle...gentile Christians call them "judiazers" while Rabbinic Jews want nothing to do with our Yeshua.

 

[roamer_1]

I don't think it was really syncretism, maybe a result of what happened during that time when both were trying to keep things alive without The Temple and really both separating more and more from each other because of belief or no belief in Yeshua. It was inevitable on both ends at some point. Things evolved on both ends. You had Rabbinic Jews saying similar things regarding Christians at the time. So it is today...Jews who believe in Yeshua are stuck in the middle...gentile Christians call them "judiazers" while Rabbinic Jews want nothing to do with our Yeshua.

I don't know about that - There's always some famous rabbi or warrior with a following that thinks he's the messiah... A pretty common thing historically. So I would submit that to a degree, judaism is more tolerant than assumed in that regard. The tricky part with Yeshua is in a few parts:

Probably foremost, he didn't quit being a messianic candidate after he died... Probably considered bad form by the PTB...

And second, he tipped the Rabbinic hierarchical structure on it's ear - One Rabbi. No division after-the-fact No forking to diminish the power and doctrine. Pete's boys were Yeshua's disciples, not Pete's... same with Paul, and so on. These two together threatened the political structure and kicked a lot of sleeping dogs.

Then, of course, the Gentiles. wouldn't have been a problem, I think, except that Yeshua's doctrine directly challenged Halakhic (not Torah) authority, which again, challenged the Rabbinic power-base. And not with easily cowed Jews, but with Gentiles, omitting the cultural bindings so carefully nurtured by the Pharisees to maintain cultural dominance.

The perfect storm, so the tale goes, was in that no Christians died in the fall of Jerusalem, tied to their also rather pacifist outlook wrt Bar Kokhba (another messianic candidate. btw), left them in ill repute among the Jews.

But they were still trying to pry the Christians out of the synagogues well past 200AD

And the same, btw, from the Christian side, trying to shed themselves of 'Judaizers' all the way past Constantine.

I don't think it was doctrinal from either direction. I think it was powers rising... And neither side wanted the thorn in their side - The Sabbath keeping, Torah keeping Christians, which were ungovernable from either power base..

 

[truefiction1]

I have felt the presence of God both in the Church and in the Synagogue.

Feeling the presence and being in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, I suspect, are radically different experiences.

Do you know that when Jesus' disciples were in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, they could see Christ for Who He really was in that moment? (Matthew 17:2)? The saints of the Church saw God and all things in this Light most of the time. In our time, it has become quite rare. Much of what people have come to believe these days is false (Luke 18:9). You mentioned Pentecost. Good. Then you must know that it is the day when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit into the world by the Son of Man Who is risen and ascended into heaven is commemorated. You should also be aware that without this there is no salvation, because salvation is to become one with God: to participate in the Life of the Holy Trinity. This Communion that communicates direct knowledge of God is the Eternal Life (John 17:4) which (or WHO) saves us, and it is accomplished in the Holy Spirit, through the Word, to the Father.

I ask (because I truly don't know), are they celebrating salvation (the gift of Eternal Life) by Communion with God in the Spirit in the synagogues on Pentecost? or something equivalent in meaning?

 

[truefiction1]

When Christ returns what do you think will return and at what point did it leave; you seem to be taking metaphors literally.

Christ was, and is, and is yet to come. Christ is in our midst even now, and He will return to judge all the Living and the dead at the end of the ages. The metaphors point to things which are real, yet are not commonly understood, except by those who are spiritually discerned.

 

[jamespyles]

Feeling the presence and being in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, I suspect, are radically different experiences.

Do you know that when Jesus' disciples were in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, they could see Christ for Who He really was in that moment? (Matthew 17:2)? The saints of the Church saw God and all things in this Light most of the time. In our time, it has become quite rare. Much of what people have come to believe these days is false (Luke 18:9). You mentioned Pentecost. Good. Then you must know that it is the day when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit into the world by the Son of Man Who is risen and ascended into heaven is commemorated. You should also be aware that without this there is no salvation, because salvation is to become one with God: to participate in the Life of the Holy Trinity. This Communion that communicates direct knowledge of God is the Eternal Life (John 17:4) which (or WHO) saves us, and it is accomplished in the Holy Spirit, through the Word, to the Father.

I ask (because I truly don't know), are they celebrating salvation (the gift of Eternal Life) by Communion with God in the Spirit in the synagogues on Pentecost? or something equivalent in meaning?

I don't think we're in possession of a perfectly correct understanding of God's relationship with Israel. In Romans 11, Paul point blank said all Israel would be saved and he was referencing Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 and Jeremiah 31:33,34, which contains New Covenant language.

I believe the Spirit we were each given starting with Acts 2 is just a foretaste of what we will all receive in Messianic days. Jeremiah 31 states that we will be so full of the Spirit then (not in the presence) that no none will have to teach about God, we will know, from the least among us, to the greatest. We will have an apprehension of God in the manner of the Prophets of old, a knowledge greater than even John the Baptist.

Since we still have Bible Studies and Sunday School, I'd have to say that the New Covenant promises have only cracked the door open, so to speak. It's just a downpayment on what Jesus will accomplish when he returns.

You or I can't know exactly the relationship God has with the Jewish people, but since the New Covenant was made exclusively with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, and since the modern descendants of Judah and Israel are the Jewish people today, and since Jesus himself said "salvation comes from the Jews," (John 4:22), then I think when the Messiah returns, the "Church" and Israel are going to undergo a rather drastic change in their/our relationship, when Israel is made the head and the nations the tail.

According to Zechariah 8:23 (NASB): "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment (probably tzitzit or the fringes tied to a Jewish prayer shawl) of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

It doesn't say ten Jews grasp the cross of a Gentile Christian.

 

[truefiction1]

I don't think we're in possession of a perfectly correct understanding of God's relationship with Israel. In Romans 11, Paul point blank said all Israel would be saved and he was referencing Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 and Jeremiah 31:33,34, which contains New Covenant language.

I believe the Spirit we were each given starting with Acts 2 is just a foretaste of what we will all receive in Messianic days. Jeremiah 31 states that we will be so full of the Spirit then (not in the presence) that no none will have to teach about God, we will know, from the least among us, to the greatest. We will have an apprehension of God in the manner of the Prophets of old, a knowledge greater than even John the Baptist.

Since we still have Bible Studies and Sunday School, I'd have to say that the New Covenant promises have only cracked the door open, so to speak. It's just a downpayment on what Jesus will accomplish when he returns.

You or I can't know exactly the relationship God has with the Jewish people, but since the New Covenant was made exclusively with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, and since the modern descendants of Judah and Israel are the Jewish people today, and since Jesus himself said "salvation comes from the Jews," (John 4:22), then I think when the Messiah returns, the "Church" and Israel are going to undergo a rather drastic change in their/our relationship, when Israel is made the head and the nations the tail.

According to Zechariah 8:23 (NASB): "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment (probably tzitzit or the fringes tied to a Jewish prayer shawl) of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

It doesn't say ten Jews grasp the cross of a Gentile Christian.

I think that we are forgetting that a Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, not outwardly. If we make being a Jew all about genetics (race) and religious observances, then we have extracted verses about the Jews and about Israel out of the context of the Gospel. I'm not going to claim that you don't make good points. I just think that how "Jew", and "Israel" are defined in the Gospel of the Kingdom are largely metaphors for Jews and gentiles alike who worship Jesus as God the Word. For Paul states all of these things about his people, (these teachings of Paul actually being what I was referring to when I alluded to them in an earlier post) yet He also says "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise."

The prophecy does not say that ten Jews grasp the cross of a Gentile Christian. Why? because the Jews are the one's grasping the crosses. (1 Corinthians 1:23).

Regarding the "Messianic" times, I suppose that you are talking about the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of time? Given Christ's own description of how this will be for us, it would seem that our most pressing concern should be whether we are "Jewish" inwardly (in Communion with God in the Holy Spirit). There seems to be no indication that one's genetic inheritance will play a significant part in how we'll spend eternity in the fullness of God (when God shall become all in all) -- which is unspeakable joy to some yet unbearable torment to others.

 

[roamer_1]

Feeling the presence and being in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, I suspect, are radically different experiences.

Ya know - That's the thing with you EO boys... Kinda all 'catholicky' most of the time, but then y'all throw me for a loop and start going all pentecostal, talking about 'in the Spirit' and the reality of demons and such... And good on ya for it.

 

[roamer_1]

If we make being a Jew all about genetics (race) and religious observances, then we have extracted verses about the Jews and about Israel out of the context of the Gospel.

Christedom has been taking 'the House of Judah' and The House of Israel' out of context all the way along.

I'm not going to claim that you don't make good points. I just think that how "Jew", and "Israel" are defined in the Gospel of the Kingdom are largely metaphors for Jews and gentiles alike who worship Jesus as God the Word.

No... two distinct and separate physical entities, Ephraim and Judah, else one must throw out more than half of prophecy (which many are wont to do)

The two houses are what it's all about.

 

[truefiction1]

Ya know - That's the thing with you EO boys... Kinda all 'catholicky' most of the time, but then y'all throw me for a loop and start going all pentecostal, talking about 'in the Spirit' and the reality of demons and such... And good on ya for it.

Well, the acquisition of the Holy Spirit has always been and will always be the aim of the Christian Life (The aim of the Christian Life).