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If Time Is Relative...

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by leftrightleftrightleft, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. leftrightleftrightleft

    leftrightleftrightleft Inclined to Christianity

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    If time is relative what does it mean to say the Big Bang occurred 13.7 billion years ago? Relative to who?
     
  2. CaliforniaSun

    CaliforniaSun New Member

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    Relative to us, the observer.
     
  3. Agonaces of Susa

    Agonaces of Susa Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.

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    Excellent questions and point.

    Time is not a physical material object, but rather the a priori form of our intuition.

    "Time is not something which subsists of itself, or which inheres in things as an objective determination..." -- Immanuel Kant, natural philosopher, 1781

    "If we...consequently take objects as they are in themselves, then time is nothing." -- Immanuel Kant, natural philosopher, 1781

    The reason why Big Bangers say there was a magic bang 13.7 billion years ago is because Big Bangers have declared war on observation and the scientific method and fooled the ignorant public into believing they have magic time machines, crystal balls, and scrying bowls.

    There was no Big Bang: http://bigbangneverhappened.org/
     
  4. jonsun80

    jonsun80 Newbie

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    to earth years, the distance it takes for the Earth to make a complete 1 orbit around the sun. Is that not obvious?
     
  5. SharpSolaris

    SharpSolaris in the mind

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    Answer 1 (complex):

    Theory of relativity and quantum mechanics evidenced that space-time and matter-energy - two sides of one coin.

    Time - is internal phenomenon with respect of the Universe. It is -quality of the universe.

    So, talk about "emergence" of the Universe is unlawful. Similarly, talk about "emergence" of time is unlawful. Time and the Universe did not appear. They were ALWAYS (12 or 14 billion years).
    A thing can appear only if a thing was not.

    And "when" and "was" determined only over time. That is, within the universe.

    (When was the time when there was no time?)

    Similarly, the absurd question, "what came before big-bang?", or (quote) "Relative to who?".
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2011
  6. SharpSolaris

    SharpSolaris in the mind

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    Answer 2 (easy): relative to your hours. =)
     
  7. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    Time and space are relative to here and now. Here and now is the zero point. The past is expanding, but it is all we are capable of perceiving in the normal course of things. Mystics can experience the here and now and realize in some fashion that the universe is all one thing, and all that we perceive is the illusion of separateness.

    :wave:
     
  8. Naraoia

    Naraoia Apprentice Biologist

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    I don't think that's the kind of "relativity" the OP was asking about :wave:
     
  9. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

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    But one observer may see two events as separated by space but simultaneous in time, another, from a different viewpoint will see those two events as occurring at different times at the same spatial location. And that is the spacetime relativity that is under discussion.

    :wave:
     
  10. Agonaces of Susa

    Agonaces of Susa Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.

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    According to mainstream scientists and chronologists, based on uranium-lead series radiometric dating of moon rocks the Earth is only 4.6 billion years old therefore years did not exist before that because the Earth wasn't orbiting the Sun.

    Furthermore the earth has not always been on it's present orbit so 13.7 billion years ago is a meaningless statement.
     
  11. jonsun80

    jonsun80 Newbie

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    why would they not exist?

    how so? is a meter a meaningless unit measurement because rulers did not always exist?
     
  12. Upisoft

    Upisoft CEO of a waterfal

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    According to your own statement the time did not exist before we have invented the watch. Also the distant galaxies did not exist before we have invented really huge telescopes. Also your parents did not exist, before you have been born.
     
  13. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Actually not so, since year is defined only as relating to the orbit of the earth around the sun, years could not have "existed" before there was an earth. The existence of Galaxies, parents, etc. are not defined in terms that require outside observation. AOS's point must be attacked from a different direction
     
  14. TemperateSeaIsland

    TemperateSeaIsland Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi

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    A year is defined as 365.25 days 86,400 SI seconds each.

    SI second is the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom.
     
  15. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Rulers( if I am allowed to define this term as "that which exerts authority over others" ) have probably always existed but meters are a human invention.
     
  16. Upisoft

    Upisoft CEO of a waterfal

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    So your parents were your parents, even before you were born? How so?
     
  17. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Yes, measurement is indeed arbitrary and based on what is agreed upon. Since all intelligent beings that we have contact with are earthbound it is no wonder that all our measurements tend to be from that perspective.
    Base unit definitions: Second
     
  18. scombridae1969

    scombridae1969 Newbie

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    To repeat what others have said...

    It is relative to use, as observers. It is an approximation.
     
  19. scombridae1969

    scombridae1969 Newbie

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    It is relative to us, now. If you want to break it down, you can. And in the (relatively) distant future when things have shifted significantly, if we are still around there should be terminology that emerges to reflect or correct previous terms/units for measurement in relation to word/concepts like an earth year. Time existed before the earth was formed and "settled" on its current orbit. We have symbols and points of reference to help us express our concept of time. The concept of a year is a moving target but as approximations it works to exchange information in a convenient way. In that sense, our word/concepts of "day" and "hour" are fairly inaccurate but are practical enough.

    But going back to OP here...Relativity is not simply about units of measurement in regards to time. Relativity, more importantly, has to do with how we perceive the flow of time as affected by things such as gravity and how they affect spacetime.

    For example, the relatively short distance away from earth that marks the orbits of satellites used for the global positioning system result in enough differences in time flow (relativity) requiring built in correction in order to keep the clocks used in sync (clocks on earth with clocks on satellites):

    Do a Google search for "relativity and GPS" and see articles on Wiki and Ohio State Astronomy. I do not have enough posts to insert links yet - sorry!

    In other words, due to relativity, the distance of the GPS satellites away from earth (and its gravitational field) makes time on board satellites flow differently than the "rate" in which times flow on the surface of the earth - enough so that without built in correction GPS would be pragmatically useless for navigation.
     
  20. MattRose

    MattRose Guest

    Well you could convert 13.7 billion years into SI seconds. This time measurement would not be reliant on earth ever existing. An SI second is the duration of 9192631770cycles of radiation corresponding to the transition between two energy levels of the caesium-133 atom (but we all knew that). Now in SI seconds we would have a number that you nor I could relate to. I on the other hand, know about how long a year is and can sorta see that 13.7 billon years is even longer than I can hold my breath.
     
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