If it were not for dispensationalism....

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I believe the churches as seven

1. Ephesus - Began with the book of Acts
2. Smyrna - Began with Nero. Foxes lists the persecutions as ten
3. Pergamos - Began when Constantine liberated the Roman Empire
4. Thyatira - Began with Charlemange - The Roman Catholic Church
5. Sardis - Began with Martin Luther
6. Philadelphia - Began with the ana-Baptists - heavily persecuted during the 16th century and into the 17th by both Magisterial Protestants and Roman Catholics. John Bunyan is also Philadelphian and spent a good bit of his life in prison due to his resistance to the state run church.
7. Laodicea - I find traces of this church as early as DL Moody in the 1800's, Who angered the English with rumors of profits made from hymn book sales. DL Moody also was the first in my readings of history to buy a mansion with ministry proceeds.

Now each church had its issues and virtues. And I am not promoting one over the other. When it is all said and done one will be able to look back and see what arose from the times...

1. Apostolic church - "Left their first Love" - Paul
2. Martyred church - Normally Orthodox in faith - Not a lot of cohesiveness here.
3. Orthodox church - Orthodox - A Pygros is a tower - Needed in the dark ages. A barbaric time.
4. Catholic church - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate
5. Protestant church - A sardius is a gem - Ellegant yet hard. Had a name but little in spirituality.
6. Revived church - The great awakening.
7. Materialistic church - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

If it were not for dispensationalism we would all be forced to worship in some state approved church!
 

rockytopva

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My image of Bill Gates sitting atop every piece of dogma reasoned out by man in the age of the church. Where would we be without dispensationalism? Probably without all that dogma!

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I believe the churches as seven

1. Ephesus - Began with the book of Acts
2. Smyrna - Began with Nero. Foxes lists the persecutions as ten
3. Pergamos - Began when Constantine liberated the Roman Empire
4. Thyatira - Began with Charlemange - The Roman Catholic Church
5. Sardis - Began with Martin Luther
6. Philadelphia - Began with the ana-Baptists - heavily persecuted during the 16th century and into the 17th by both Magisterial Protestants and Roman Catholics. John Bunyan is also Philadelphian and spent a good bit of his life in prison due to his resistance to the state run church.
7. Laodicea - I find traces of this church as early as DL Moody in the 1800's, Who angered the English with rumors of profits made from hymn book sales. DL Moody also was the first in my readings of history to buy a mansion with ministry proceeds.

Now each church had its issues and virtues. And I am not promoting one over the other. When it is all said and done one will be able to look back and see what arose from the times...

1. Apostolic church - "Left their first Love" - Paul
2. Martyred church - Normally Orthodox in faith - Not a lot of cohesiveness here.
3. Orthodox church - Orthodox - A Pygros is a tower - Needed in the dark ages. A barbaric time.
4. Catholic church - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate
5. Protestant church - A sardius is a gem - Ellegant yet hard. Had a name but little in spirituality.
6. Revived church - The great awakening.
7. Materialistic church - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

If it were not for dispensationalism we would all be forced to worship in some state approved church!
 
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THE SEVEN KINGDOM – JEWISH – CHURCHES OF REVELATION

NATIONAL ISRAEL’S HISTORY IN THE O.T.
MYSTERIES OF THE KINGDOM IN THE SYNOPTIC GOSPEL BOOKS

Epiphanius, an early church father, said that none of these 7 churches existed in the period of time when the Kingdom Apostle John penned the book of Revelation from the island of Patmos. That they were founded during national Israel’s TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE would surely make them Hebrew Kingdom churches. Remember that the church of our dispensation – the body of Christ – has been “caught up” in the rapture prior to Israel’s PROPHECY in Revelation (Rev. 1:3).

(1) To the church at Ephesus....
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Jer 2:2 Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown.

Israel’s first love was Jehovah, her husband (Jer. 3:14). This espousal took place upon her exodus from her Egyptian bondage of 400 years.

Matthew’s Scripture is addressed to national Israel. Mat 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Over and over and over again God’s nation showed her unfaithfulness and unbelief toward Him.

The books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the prophets all give us proof.

Read Deut. 6:25 to see that they were ever relying on their own good works! Then read Jer. 3:8

National Israel’s harlotry was spiritual unfaithfulness to God.

(2) To the church at Smyrna....

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Israel -- in the wilderness, after their exodus from Egyptian bondage.... Ex. 12:37-38 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. And a mixed multitude (They were maybe some Egyptians who wanted to associate themselves with God's people, but didn't really believe in God. They were actually used by Satan to trip-up God's nation. They were "tares among the wheat.") went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. (See Rev. 2:9 and 3:9.)

Mysteries of the Kingdom (National Israel's Scripture) from Matthew, Mark, and Luke do not pertain to God's NOW dispensation of the grace of God for His heavenly church -- us.... Matt. 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy (God's and Israel's enemy is Satan.) came and sowed tares (the "mixed multitude") among the wheat, and went his way.

(3) To the church at Pergamos....

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication I believe sexual unfaithfulness with Gentiles and spiritual unfaithfulness to God, in worshipping the gods of the Gentiles was the doctrine of Balaam -- under the handiwork of the Devil. Read Ex. 23:32-33 and Deut. 7:3-4 to see what God knew ahead of time about His nation!

Balaam was hired by the king of Moab to curse Israel (beginning in Numbers 22), but God didn't permit that. The next scheme was to cause God's nation to be unfaithful to Him. If that happened, God Himself would curse them.... Satan was the one who came up with that evil idea, and he also set in place all the details (Numbers 25). God did curse His Hebrew nation. Satan, I'm sure, thought He'd won.

This is in national Israel's history in the wilderness after their exodus from Egypt's bondage....

Num. 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel,through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

The earthly Lord Jesus spoke this mystery of the kingdom to national Israel. Matt 13:32 The mustard seed....Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. Who's the god of this world? Who's the prince of the power of the air? SATAN IS (2Cor. 4:4, Eph.2:2). The birds in this parable represent satanic infiltration as the Kingdom gospel will be preached during national Israel's 7-year tribulation. Wherever God's people are, there's Satan to trip them up. The only application this study has for us believers today is that Satan is alive and well! Wherever God's people are, there's Satan to trip us up!

(4) To the Kingdom church at Thyatira....

Rev. 2:20 "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." Jezebel was the wicked queen of the northern kingdom of Israel. Her "legacy" was that she promoted the worship of Baal (Satan) and idolatry. See 1st and 2nd Kings.

National Israel under her kings.... 1 Kings 21:25 "But there was none like unto [King] Ahab, which did sell himself to work wickedness in the sight of the LORD, whom Jezebel his wife stirred up."

Scripture addressed to National Israel. The Lord Jesus told this mystery of the kingdom to His nation.... Matt.13:33 "Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." This fits perfectly with the "legacy" of Jezebel. A future "Jezebel" will promote Satanic worship in God's nation during her future time of Jacob's trouble -- their 7-year tribulation. Leaven, as God uses it in Scripture, is always a picture of false doctrine and of sin.

(5) To the church at Sardis....

Rev 3:3 “Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief [as a Judge in His righteous judgment], and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."

In Israel's history (the books of Kings) God's judgment is upon His nation. Israel is divided --Israel and Judah -- and she is robbed, ran-sacked, and finally taken into captivity by Babylon and Assyria (Gentile nations). The warning to national Israel was clearly spelled out if she continued to refused to follow God's Mosaic Law covenant. God said through Moses, in Deut. 28:25 -- "The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth."

Because Israel was taken captive and sent to all Gentile nations, the 5th mystery of the kingdomdescribes her this way. The earthly Christ said, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field." (Matt. 13:44) Remember that in this series of parables, "The field is the world...." (Matt. 13:38a) Israel is God's treasure that was dispersed throughout the world, and the risen glorified Lord Jesus Christ is that man who found it. Deut. 30:3, Zeph. 3:19-20, and Ezek. 36:23-28 are just three of many Bible references to Israel's being gathered back to their land by God -- a Kingdom blessing at the end of the 7-year Tribulation.

(6) To the church at Philadelphia....Notice that this isn't a warning, as we saw to the other churches, but it's actually a message of comfort. Why? The church at Philadelphia represents the faithful remnant of Israel -- believing Israel who will be married to Christ and given her earthly Kingdom, enjoying her promised New Testament of Jer. 31:31-34 for eternity. Throughout the O.T. and up through Acts chapter 7, God has always been faithful to His chosen nation. The Lord will again demonstrate His faithfulness when He begins working with national Israel following our rapture.

Rev. 3:8 and 12a "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name."

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out...:"

The message of these words -- the risen Christ's words -- to Philadelphia corresponds to the faithful of Israel who returned from their Babylonian captivity. God literally set an open door before the nation when the 70 years of captivity were finished. The faithful remnant of Israel during the nation's 7-year tribulation, as prophesied by Ezra to national Israel: Ezra 1:1-3 "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia [a Gentile], that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put italso in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build Him an house at Jerusalem, which isin Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (He is the God,) which is in Jerusalem."

God's special protection for His nation that we see in the message to the church in Philadelphia can also be seen in the Bible book of Esther. The wicked man Haman managed to get a law passed, allowing all people to kill the Jews. However, when his evil plot was exposed, a new law was passed, allowing the Hebrew people to protect themselves. This all pictured God's protection from Satan during the 7-year Tribulation, especially the last half when he is cast out of the second heaven to the earth, when he is the "roaring lion" against Israel of 1Peter 5:8. (See Matt. 24:16 to note God's protection for the believing remnant of Israel.)

The earthly Lord Jesus Christ said this mystery of the kingdom to national Israel: Matt. 13:45-46 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it." The "pearl of great price" is the believing (faithful) remnant of Israel. (See Rev. 21:12 and 21a.)

(7) To the church at Laodicea....Another warning.
Rev.3:15-16 "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." By the time of Christ, national Israel had become indifferent to the things of God. They were neither cold nor hot -- they just didn't care either way. Once again, God was ready to spit them out into anther captivity. Remember national Israel's captivity to Babylon and to Assyria? That's why James addressed his letter "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad...."

Another scattering (or dispersal) for national Israel.... James 1:1"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." (That's right. The book of James is not written to believers in the Body-of-Christ church of today. Neither are the books of Peter or 1John, 2John, and 3John. The Bible books Hebrews through Revelation were addressed to Jewish believers.)

The mystery of the Kingdom, spoken by the earthly Lord Jesus about national Israel (the people of His ministry -- Matt. 10:5 and other such Scriptures): Matt. 13:47-50 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The book of Revelation finishes up the prophetic mysteries which find their roots in Israel's Scriptures (Gen. 12-the 4 Gospels). This is summarized in Rev. 10:7 "but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets."

A note about Rev. 3:20

Rev. 3:20 is addressed to the Kingdom church at Laodicea. It is evident that God's judgment of another scattering into the Gentile nations was soon to come upon national Israel. Rev. 3:17-19 tells us that God is trying to get His nation to straighten up and fly right and to repent (change their mind, realizing that true righteousness comes only from God and that self-righteousness is worthless in His sight). This reminds me of what God said to Israel after He divorced her, in Jer. 3:12-14.

Getting back to Rev. 3:20, God says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Christ is STANDING at Israel's door. (Where is Christ during this dispensation of the grace of God? Christ is seated at the Father's right hand, the Bible tells us.) When He is STANDING, He is acting as a judge. We see the same thing happening in Acts 7:56 before Israel's religious leaders killed Stephen."And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Many people think that He was standing because of loving concern for Stephen, but that's just not the case. (We must allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.) National Israel was here judged by God and He put her earthy kingdom program on hold until after our rapture, when He'll pick it up again, bringing His nation through her 7-year tribulation. Remember "the kingdom of heaven is at hand"? It WAS , but then Israel killed Stephen, demonstrating that they had no faith in God. There's other of Israel's Scriptures where STANDING spells JUDGMENT: Num. 22:23 and 31, Isa. 3:13, and Amos 9:1 are just a few.

All of this is said for us to see that Rev. 3:20 isnot a verse of invitation to accept Christ Jesus as Savior! The picture of the Lord Jesus knocking at a door is in reference to this verse, and it is taken way out of its context! The picture may work-up warm fuzzy feelings of the Savior, but He is actually standing as the righteous Judge of His chosen nation!
 
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rockytopva

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The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 1:1)... This is a prophecy for the future! Not for the past!

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (Rev 1:20)

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; (Rev 2:1) ... Christ Jesus walks amid the seven (Apostolic, Martyr, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Revived, Materialistic) candlesticks (churches), and shines through the stars (Christians) of the seven churches, who are all in his right hand!
 
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Job8

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Not sure how these posts proves anything about Dispensationalism and how essential (or non-essential) it is. I believe Dispensationalism is helpful NOT as a theology but as a means of rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Most anti-Dispensationalists have no clue about this method of hermenuetics, so they attack Darby, Scofield, and a raft of others rather than address the issue of its validity.
 
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Job8

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Regarding the application of the meaning of the seven churches of Revelation, we need to be a little circumspect and not go too far beyond reasonable Bible interpretation. For example, there is absolutely no reason to claim that these churches represent Hebrew Kingdom churches.
 
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Regarding the application of the meaning of the seven churches of Revelation, we need to be a little circumspect and not go too far beyond reasonable Bible interpretation. For example, there is absolutely no reason to claim that these churches represent Hebrew Kingdom churches.

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (Rev 1:20)"

The entire book of the Revelation is the fulfillment of OT prophecy to the nation of Israel.

Before these events happen, the Church, the Body of Christ will have been raptured to heaven.

One will never find where golden candlesticks, stars, or angels are anywhere connected to the church, the Body of Christ.

The Church, the Body of Christ is universal. The seven churches mentioned as also seen by their works, and works are a requirement in the Jewish church.
 
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Job8

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The entire book of the Revelation is the fulfillment of OT prophecy to the nation of Israel.
It is the fulfilment of BOTH OT and NT prophecies.
Before these events happen, the Church, the Body of Christ will have been raptured to heaven.
The Rapture would occur long after the messages to the seven churches in Asia. Those messages went out in the first century. This is the 21st century and the Rapture is still future.
One will never find where golden candlesticks, stars, or angels are anywhere connected to the church, the Body of Christ.
Angels are definitely connected with churches (1 Cor 11:10), and stars, and using the imagery of candlesticks does not automatically relate this to Israel. Christ calls His disciples the light of the world also, and that's what those candlesticks represent -- the light of the Gospel and of Christ in every assembly.
The Church, the Body of Christ is universal. The seven churches mentioned as also seen by their works, and works are a requirement in the Jewish church.
We should never confuse the entire Body of Christ with local assemblies. In every assembly there will be many who are in that Body, but perhaps not all. As to the requirement for good works, please note what is stated in Eph 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In other words, you have to really stretch to make these churches into Hebrew kingdom churches or something along those lines.
 
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rockytopva

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My perspective is that the first and the last ages favored one another....

Seven generations not affected by the flood
Four generations affected by the flood

Seven churches not affected by the tribulation
Four horseman affected by the tribulation.


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It is the fulfilment of BOTH OT and NT prophecies.

BigD:
What NT prophecies are fulfilled in the book of the revelation?

Job8 said:
The Rapture would occur long after the messages to the seven churches in Asia. Those messages went out in the first century. This is the 21st century and the Rapture is still future.

BigD:
The rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, will take place prior to the resumption of the Tribulation.

The happenings in the book of the Revelation take place AFTER the rapture. The Church, the Body of Christ will not experience the Tribulation (1 Thess. 5:9).

Job8 said:
Angels are definitely connected with churches (1 Cor 11:10), and stars, and using the imagery of candlesticks does not automatically relate this to Israel. Christ calls His disciples the light of the world also, and that's what those candlesticks represent -- the light of the Gospel and of Christ in every assembly.

BigD:
1 Cor. 11:10 only pertains to those in the Church, the Body of Christ, and will not be present on earth during the Tribulation.

Job8 said:
We should never confuse the entire Body of Christ with local assemblies. In every assembly there will be many who are in that Body, but perhaps not all. As to the requirement for good works, please note what is stated in Eph 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In other words, you have to really stretch to make these churches into Hebrew kingdom churches or something along those lines.

BigD:
All those in local assemblies who have place the FAITH alone in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ for their salvation are members of the Church, the Body of Christ.

Yes we are saved unto good works, but they are not a requirement for salvation. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH alone.

Yes, I do believe the 7 churches in the Book of the Revelation are kingdom churches

Job8 said:
Angels are definitely connected with churches (1 Cor 11:10), and stars, and using the imagery of candlesticks does not automatically relate this to Israel. Christ calls His disciples the light of the world also, and that's what those candlesticks represent -- the light of the Gospel and of Christ in every assembly.

We should never confuse the entire Body of Christ with local assemblies. In every assembly there will be many who are in that Body, but perhaps not all. As to the requirement for good works, please note what is stated in Eph 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In other words, you have to really stretch to make these churches into Hebrew kingdom churches or something along those lines.

BigD:
The Body of Christ is made up of all believing member of a local assembly.

I am only saying what I believe the Bible teaches when "rightly divided".
 
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