If God doesn't want anyone in hell...

Skala

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Why did he create people that He knew, if He created them, would go to hell? He could have simply opted to not create those people, sparing them from that fate. But he created them anyways.

He could have simply looked into the future to see who would, if he created the human race, use their free wills to cooperate with his salvation plan, and thus He'd have a whole human race of 100% saved people, and hell would be empty.

Why didn't he do that?

Please note that saying "God wanted us to make a choice" doesn't answer the question, because in my above example, I said that God could have simply created only those people he knew would freely make the right choice.

If God doesn't want anyone in hell, why did he give us the ability to be sinful? In heaven, after resurrection when we have glorified bodies, we won't be able to sin. We will be sinless forevermore, like Jesus. If God can do that then, why didn't He did that now? Why didn't he make the human race sinless from the beginning?

If God doesn't want anyone in hell, why did he allow the snake to come within 50 miles of Eve, and have that conversation with her? Was God unaware of what the snake was doing?

The reason I ask these questions is because there's two worldviews out there, two theologies, two soteriologies. One of them cannot offer intellectually satisfactory answers, but the other can.

To me, that is important.
 
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Messy

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I don't think He could prevent it. He said: an enemy did this.
Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
 
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nobdysfool

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I don't think He could prevent it. He said: an enemy did this.

Are you sure you want to say that? You say you don't think God could have prevented it, but if that's so, then God is not Omnipotent.

Of course He could have prevented it, if it wasn't His intent or purpose. Given His Omnipotence, if it happened, He allowed to happen for a greater purpose, a greater good. Although we may have a difficult time understanding how creating people He knows will go to hell, could be greater than not creating them at all, we should trust that God knows what He is doing, and He has not chosen to consult with us about why He does things the way He does. Why would He?

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

What is the point of the parable? Don't try to separate the wheat from the tares, the true believers from the false. That will be done at the threshing floor, which is a type of The Judgment.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I don't think He could prevent it. He said: an enemy did this.
Of course, in this case, God created the enemy and gave him a special perch in a tree in the middle of the garden where He placed the man and the woman.

This and things like it is why I've always said that one of the two theologies which Skala refers to is whistling through a grave yard.

People of that perspective work very hard to undermine some of the doctrines of the other perspective and hope that no one will notice that the big issues are still very much there when they open their eyes.
 
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bling

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Why did he create people that He knew, if He created them, would go to hell? He could have simply opted to not create those people, sparing them from that fate. But he created them anyways.

He could have simply looked into the future to see who would, if he created the human race, use their free wills to cooperate with his salvation plan, and thus He'd have a whole human race of 100% saved people, and hell would be empty.

Why didn't he do that?

Please note that saying "God wanted us to make a choice" doesn't answer the question, because in my above example, I said that God could have simply created only those people he knew would freely make the right choice.

If God doesn't want anyone in hell, why did he give us the ability to be sinful? In heaven, after resurrection when we have glorified bodies, we won't be able to sin. We will be sinless forevermore, like Jesus. If God can do that then, why didn't He did that now? Why didn't he make the human race sinless from the beginning?

If God doesn't want anyone in hell, why did he allow the snake to come within 50 miles of Eve, and have that conversation with her? Was God unaware of what the snake was doing?

The reason I ask these questions is because there's two worldviews out there, two theologies, two soteriologies. One of them cannot offer intellectually satisfactory answers, but the other can.

To me, that is important.

At the exact same moment, God decides to make a person, that person was made, lived, died and went to heaven or hell, there is no chain of events for God, like there is for man living restrained by time.


There is no “going back” and deciding not to make is particular person, since the person has already existed, in man’s future which is God’s present.


There are an infinite number of potential people God will never create and God would know all their “potential possibilities” actions, but God would not know the free will choices these never to be created people would specifically do, since they are totally imaginary and there is nothing to know specifically about them.
 
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nobdysfool

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At the exact same moment, God decides to make a person, that person was made, lived, died and went to heaven or hell, there is no chain of events for God, like there is for man living restrained by time.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

There is no “going back” and deciding not to make is particular person, since the person has already existed, in man’s future which is God’s present.

And you know this, how? Aren't you the guy that thinks God uses wormholes to communicate with Himself? Where is the Scripture for that???

There are an infinite number of potential people God will never create and God would know all their “potential possibilities” actions, but God would not know the free will choices these never to be created people would specifically do, since they are totally imaginary and there is nothing to know specifically about them.

And yet God does know, because He is Omniscient. If He can call the things that be not, as though they are, then He can also know that things that are not, as though they are.

Please don't try to tell us how God views things, or what He can and can't know. No man has that kind of knowledge.
 
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Brother Chris

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That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.



And you know this, how? Aren't you the guy that thinks God uses wormholes to communicate with Himself? Where is the Scripture for that???



And yet God does know, because He is Omniscient. If He can call the things that be not, as though they are, then He can also know that things that are not, as though they are.

Please don't try to tell us how God views things, or what He can and can't know. No man has that kind of knowledge.

Yes, Bling is the same person who advocates Wormhole Theology. Honestly, I don't mean to sound mean, but no one should take what he says seriously.
 
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Marvin Knox

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There are an infinite number of potential people God will never create and God would know all their “potential possibilities” actions, but God would not know the free will choices these never to be created people would specifically do, since they are totally imaginary and there is nothing to know specifically about them.
"............................................. for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham." Luke 3:8 (Matthew 3:9)

I love ya brother but:

Did God know that these "never to be created people" would be people of faith - or would these former rocks get a special dispensation no matter what they did?
 
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At the exact same moment, God decides to make a person, that person was made, lived, died and went to heaven or hell, there is no chain of events for God, like there is for man living restrained by time.

There is no “going back” and deciding not to make is particular person, since the person has already existed, in man’s future which is God’s present.

There are an infinite number of potential people God will never create and God would know all their “potential possibilities” actions, but God would not know the free will choices these never to be created people would specifically do, since they are totally imaginary and there is nothing to know specifically about them.

I have no idea what you are trying to get across here.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Why did he create people that He knew, if He created them, would go to hell? He could have simply opted to not create those people, sparing them from that fate. But he created them anyways.

He could have simply looked into the future to see who would, if he created the human race, use their free wills to cooperate with his salvation plan, and thus He'd have a whole human race of 100% saved people, and hell would be empty.

Why didn't he do that?

Please note that saying "God wanted us to make a choice" doesn't answer the question, because in my above example, I said that God could have simply created only those people he knew would freely make the right choice.
God did that to make a point or 2. But not to us humans. Apparently to a higher creation called angels. 1 Pet 1:10-12 gives us a clue.

One point is to demonstrate His love for even those who will reject Him. That demonstrates tremendous character.

Another point is to demonstrate that those who end up in hell did so because of their own choices, not His. He purchased the free gift of eternal life for everyone (I know that is not in your theology). But, one has to be qualified to live with God in eternity and those who reject His gift have no other place to go.

No doubt there are other points as well, but if they are for the angels, we just don't know what they are.

If God doesn't want anyone in hell, why did he give us the ability to be sinful?
Ah, this just reminded me of another point: His matchless grace. To demonstrate grace to those who clearly don't deserve it.
 
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Pastor Don

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The answer is simple and not simple at the same time. The simple answer is love.

The more complex answer is that had God created humanity to be perfect and remain perfect without the possibility of ever having to make the decision to love God out of their free will, then the whole "made in His image" concept would not have played out well. God wanted a creation that He could work with, beside and in relationship with here on earth. If you look at the account(s) of the Eden story, God set up man as the manager of all His creation. In order to understand the creation he was to run, humanity would have to learn about love.

Many people see the fall from grace as the worst day ever for humanity. We often forget that before this day occurred, God already had redemption planned out. The infinite streams of reality that came together the moment Eve broke covenant with God and then Adam followed suit only brought to fruition what had to happen in order for humanity to learn about relationships and the true magnitude of God's amazing love.

Many people look at the cruelty that we have in our world today and believe that God could have and should have prevented it. The strongest point missed is that every decision that mankind made that went against the will of God was his own to make but there were consequences and still are today. There is only one way out of this brokenness and that is through Jesus Christ. Again this choice must be made freely by humanity and the consequences for making the wrong decision has been made clear. It does not matter how much we rebel on this earth we all will face judgment in the end. We have a short lifespan to make this most important decision. Why risk missing out on the small window of time that you have to decide to follow Jesus?
 
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bling

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That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.



And you know this, how? Aren't you the guy that thinks God uses wormholes to communicate with Himself? Where is the Scripture for that???



And yet God does know, because He is Omniscient. If He can call the things that be not, as though they are, then He can also know that things that are not, as though they are.

Please don't try to tell us how God views things, or what He can and can't know. No man has that kind of knowledge.
Help me understand your understanding:

Is God outside of human time: “omnipresent” at all times (past/ present/ future) or is God limited by human time (our past/present/future)?

Experimentally over the last 100 years, science has shown, and not been able to not show, time being relative, so is time totally relative to God?

Does God in His communication with man use anthropomorphic wording to make it easier for humans to understand the message, such as statements about the future really being only man’s future?

If God is omnipresent in time than (from man’s perspective) God is existing at the same time in the past, the future, and present, so from God’s perspective: for God there is no past or future, but just the present?
 
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bling

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Yes, Bling is the same person who advocates Wormhole Theology. Honestly, I don't mean to sound mean, but no one should take what he says seriously.
Help me understand your understanding:


Is God outside of human time: “omnipresent” at all times (past/ present/ future) or is God limited by human time (our past/present/future)?

Experimentally over the last 100 years, science has shown, and not been able to not show, time being relative, so is time totally relative to God?

Does God in His communication with man use anthropomorphic wording to make it easier for humans to understand the message, such as statements about the future really being only man’s future?

If God is omnipresent in time than (from man’s perspective) God is existing at the same time in the past, the future, and present, so from God’s perspective: for God there is no past or future, but just the present?
 
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bling

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"............................................. for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham." Luke 3:8 (Matthew 3:9)

I love ya brother but:

Did God know that these "never to be created people" would be people of faith - or would these former rocks get a special dispensation no matter what they did?

Help me understand your understanding:

Is God outside of human time: “omnipresent” at all times (past/ present/ future) or is God limited by human time (our past/present/future)?

Experimentally over the last 100 years, science has shown, and not been able to not show, time being relative, so is time totally relative to God?

Does God in His communication with man use anthropomorphic wording to make it easier for humans to understand the message, such as statements about the future really being only man’s future?

If God is omnipresent in time than (from man’s perspective) God is existing at the same time in the past, the future, and present, so from God’s perspective: for God there is no past or future, but just the present?
 
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bling

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I have no idea what you are trying to get across here.

Help me understand your understanding:

Is God outside of human time: “omnipresent” at all times (past/ present/ future) or is God limited by human time (our past/present/future)?

Experimentally over the last 100 years, science has shown, and not been able to not show, time being relative, so is time totally relative to God?

Does God in His communication with man use anthropomorphic wording to make it easier for humans to understand the message, such as statements about the future really being only man’s future?

If God is omnipresent in time than (from man’s perspective) God is existing at the same time in the past, the future, and present, so from God’s perspective: for God there is no past or future, but just the present?
 
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Brother Chris

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Help me understand your understanding:


Is God outside of human time: “omnipresent” at all times (past/ present/ future) or is God limited by human time (our past/present/future)?

Experimentally over the last 100 years, science has shown, and not been able to not show, time being relative, so is time totally relative to God?

Does God in His communication with man use anthropomorphic wording to make it easier for humans to understand the message, such as statements about the future really being only man’s future?

If God is omnipresent in time than (from man’s perspective) God is existing at the same time in the past, the future, and present, so from God’s perspective: for God there is no past or future, but just the present?

Bling, please....stick to what scripture teaches. God is all knowing and omnipresent. That's it. No need to explain it or try to understand it. The bible says, we believe it. That's the end of it.
 
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Marvin Knox

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At the exact same moment, God decides to make a person, that person was made, lived, died and went to heaven or hell, there is no chain of events for God, like there is for man living restrained by time.


There is no “going back” and deciding not to make is particular person, since the person has already existed, in man’s future which is God’s present.


There are an infinite number of potential people God will never create and God would know all their “potential possibilities” actions, but God would not know the free will choices these never to be created people would specifically do, since they are totally imaginary and there is nothing to know specifically about them.
Bling,

I really do understand the problem that exists for a person the moment they resist the absolute,total, and purposeful predestination of all things created by God.

If they continue to do so, things sooner or later come down to finding ways to see God as not omniscient in the total sense of the word. You seem to be working through this now.

Ponder something with me, if you will, according to your view of omniscience.

Did God have to commit totally to His actually becoming incarnate before He could know for certain what men would do to HIm?

In other words, if incarnation was merely a possibility, God could only know all possible outcomes. But He could not know the actual outcome until such time as it was really going to become reality.

Under your theology (and you are not alone in this) God committed to put Himself in the hands of men not knowing what they would do with Him.

That's not very reassuring for me concerning the wisdom of God.

After this we really should return to the intent of Skala's thread.

It seems to have gone off the track.:)
 
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Skala

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God did that to make a point or 2. But not to us humans. Apparently to a higher creation called angels. 1 Pet 1:10-12 gives us a clue.

One point is to demonstrate His love for even those who will reject Him. That demonstrates tremendous character.

So God created people he knew would end up in hell to demonstrate his love for them? Huh
 
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FreeGrace2

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So God created people he knew would end up in hell to demonstrate his love for them? Huh
Interesting how much of my post was ignored.

Here's how Paul explained it:
Rom 5:8 - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Though Paul was addressing believers in Rome, we know that he was speaking as a human being here. Why? In 2 Cor 5:14,15, he twice said that Christ died for all, and in v.19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, and in 1 Jn 2:2 that Christ was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not of us only. And on and on and on.

Creating people He knew would go to hell is NOT a demonstration of His love for them. Going to hell is NOT a demonstration of God's love either. That is a demonstration of man's rejection of God's love.

Christ on the cross for mankind is the demonstration of God's love for mankind. He created mankind and His Son died for mankind. That is a sacrificial love towards mankind.

When Jesus said “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

He draws men by demonstrating His love for them by dying for them. Not all men respond to His love for them.

But, since your theology denies both man's freedom to accept or reject God's love, and that Christ died for all men, I'm sure my post will be spun in quite a different way than I have communicated.
 
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There's two possible understandings of "God couldn't prevent it." One is that he doesn't have that kind of control. The other is that he couldn't prevent it without giving up other things that he was committed to doing.

Could he look ahead and not create anyone who would be damned? I don't think that's as obvious a possibility as the OP might. You can't take the current history, remove half the people in it, and have it remain unchanged. So there's an implicit assumption that it's possible to have a history that has no one damned and still meets whatever other goals God has for his creation. Lots of people think they know whether that's possible, but I certainly don't claim to.

Of course one can also say that God simply doesn't want everyone saved. But I agree with posting 2 that this is unbiblical.

Luther, at least in his later days, seems to have left this question unanswered, and investing why some people are damned could be dangerous. I don't think Calvin ever gives a real answer either. He says that God created all those people who would be damned "for his glory." But (unlike many) I don't think that means that God takes glee in torturing people. I think this is Calvin's expression of confidence that when we finally see God face to face, we will find that he had a good reason for what he did.
 
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