If Christ existed before earthly birth, did He not interact with humans?

[hedrick]

I guess not.

I just read "subordinationism" on Wikipedia, and I don't like being associated with it.

HOWEVER, I do like the term "relational subordination," that was used in the early centuries.

I think that's OK. I didn't think you'd like being considered an Arian. Another term you could consider is "economic subordination."

I should note that technically speaking all three persons are active in everything God does, although one may be more visible to us.

 

[HighwayMan]

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.I wish.

If that were true, then we wouldn't have any cults.I would say that's a pretty accurate statement.

And despite the abovementioned passage I quoted, if someone were to tell me he is in a religion based on Jesus' "other" appearances that were not recorded in the Bible, I wouldn't believe him.

Yes that is a very interesting passage, but if "no" is the conclusion, then what can we make of that quote?

Is it a great exaggeration did Jesus did so many things to overfill all books in the world? But in either case, it definitely seems to be saying that He did a fantastic amount of things. Some may say "sure, but they weren't all that important to be included in the Bible," but....I find it hard to imagine that anything that Jesus did is not important, let alone when we have supposedly such a vast, vast body of things that he did.

And of this vast body, I can't imagine that everything was Jesus by Himself not interacting with anyone. It's all speculation, but the nature of that passage, exaggerated or not, to me at least opens the possibility that He did indeed interact with people, and had some kind of impression on their lives.

Yes it's a lot of speculation, but I have always found great interest in that passage, as it seems to hold a great deal of potential, whatever it means.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

We know Him more colloquially as Christ for what He did here, but He has always been the Ancient of Days/Word of God.

Please explain the following verse based on you above statement.

Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Or is Jesus's entire involvement with mankind from beginning to end confined to the pages of the written down Bible, as we have it today?

Yes if you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God watched over by The Holy Spirit.

 

[Hank77]

Yes if you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God watched over by The Holy Spirit.

The Apostle John said that Jesus did many things that were not written down. That scripture has been brought up in this thread.
But at the same time I don't think John was referring to many different kinds of things than what was written down in the scriptures.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Neogaia.

You stated the following in reply to my previous post.

I still see no where where they attempted to worship the angel directly, nor where that angel accepted worship from them...?

I found a better example.

Joshua 5:13-15 (RSV)
Once when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing before him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went to him and said to him, ‘Are you one of us, or one of our adversaries?’ He replied, ‘Neither; but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and he said to him, ‘What do you command your servant, my Lord?’ The commander of the army of the Lord said to Joshua, ‘Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy.’ And Joshua did so.

The Commander of the heavenly army, is obviously the Lord of Hosts. Joshua worshiped the commander with his face to the ground. The ground is holy, indicating the divine presence of the Commander of the heavenly hosts.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The Apostle John said that Jesus did many things that were not written down. That scripture has been brought up in this thread.
But at the same time I don't think John was referring to many different kinds of things than what was written down in the scriptures.

My belief is that the Lord would not allow for the Word to be not presented so that we do not have the teachings that will prepare us for eternity.

I believe that the father of lies will do all he can to destroy the teachings of the Word by leading through misunderstanding, by providing different interpretations of the Word that leave out the divinity of Christ (which we have), by force ect....

We do not have to look any further that what is called "Christianity" to see this in action. Most "Christians" today believe one lie or another. And when presented with the truth they reject it because of the lack of faith. Instead they go with what they have been taught or their own private interpretations. You can see this in the posts on this site.

 

[Aryeh]

Please explain the following verse based on you above statement.

Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

That Son of Man is Christ - the Human we know of who died as a son of Man, and was resurrected to life.

The Ancient of Days is the Word of God - the only One who can SIT AS GOD.

God The Father is the Lord of Spirits - even of the Ancient of Days.

The vision is a vision of the paradox of the Ancient of Days and Christ. They are the same; one representation of the REMISSION OF SINS, and one representation of the JUDGE, AND ONE AUTHORIZED TO OPEN AND READ THE BOOK OF LIFE- by the same entity.

Technically, even, all of These are God.


Son of Man, Ancient of Days, Word of God, Wisdom of God, etc. are all titles for the One we know as Christ, and the One who has always been the Word of God/Ancient of Days.

See, He never "left" any of His positions.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Word of God

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

this verse does not say the Ancient of Days=the word, It says the Word = Jesus Christ the Son of God, one third of the Trinity.

 

[Aryeh]

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

this verse does not say the Ancient of Days=the word, It says the Word = Jesus Christ the Son of God, one third of the Trinity.

The Word of God is the same as the Wisdom of God is the same as the Ancient of Days.

They are titles for the same One.

The Ancient of Days/Wisdom of God/Word of God made flesh is Christ. Ancient of Days is a term used by Hebrews - often in Enoch.

The writer of Daniel would have been very familiar with Enoch, as it was part of "canon."

They knew these "titles" represented the same One in different dimensions of function. The Judge. The Redeemer. The Word of God. The Ancient of Days.

Ancient of Days is also a categorical name: if you existed from the beginning of time itself (even before,) what would you ca yourself?

We are dissecting the same thing into parts we think should be different. Not so.

 

[Sammy-San]

One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

Didn't her interact with Adam and Eve and the guys in the fire?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The Word of God is the same as the Wisdom of God is the same as the Ancient of Days.

They are titles for the same One.

The Ancient of Days/Wisdom of God/Word of God made flesh is Christ. Ancient of Days is a term used by Hebrews - often in Enoch.

The writer of Daniel would have been very familiar with Enoch, as it was part of "canon."

They knew these "titles" represented the same One in different dimensions of function. The Judge. The Redeemer. The Word of God. The Ancient of Days.

Ancient of Days is also a categorical name: if you existed from the beginning of time itself (even before,) what would you ca yourself?

We are dissecting the same thing into parts we think should be different. Not so.

Act 2
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The above versus paint a picture as do other verses that God the Father is seated "Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit," then Christ is brought before him. Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

They are ONE but the Father, Son and Holy Ghost have different functions. In that they are ONE the Word is the Ancient of Days, but it is the function of the Son to be the Word not the Ancient of Days in scripture otherwise John 1 would be inaccurate.

 

[Aryeh]

Act 2
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The above versus paint a picture as do other verses that God the Father is seated "Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit," then Christ is brought before him. Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

They are ONE but the Father, Son and Holy Ghost have different functions. In that they are ONE the Word is the Ancient of Days, but it is the function of the Son to be the Word not the Ancient of Days in scripture otherwise John 1 would be inaccurate.

That is what I have said - several times.

The Ancient of Days never left His post/job position.

The One who we know as Christ had the specific function of REDEEMER, and was a self-titled Son of Man. He is the same as the Ancient of Days, but the AoD is not a son of Man.

The Word of God/Wisdom of God is also the AoD, the Son of Man, and the Christ.

The Lord of Spirits is God the Father.


I think paradoxes are what make all of this confusing - paradoxes, and the banning of the very books that very simply explain all of this in detail (apocrypha.)

The paradox is similar to how Moses and Elijah can have resurrected bodies, yet the Resurrection hadn't happened yet (as the Son of Man/Christ had not yet been killed yet.)

Time does not move linearly for the Ancient of Days, or the Lord of Spirits. The Ancient of Days has all power endowed from the Lord of Spirits, and bilocation (or multilocation) in space or time is certainly not something He is restricted by.

Paradoxes all around. Also, the Trinity I try to stay away from as a topic of discussion. There has been too much church focus on compartmentalizing the functions and locations of the "three heads." That, plus the Hebrews didnt really emphatically focus on a "trinity," but rather the full spectrum of the Most High.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Didn't her interact with Adam and Eve and the guys in the fire?

Is "her" a typo?

 

[Sammy-San]

Is "her" a typo?

I meant he.

 

[Pastorjack777]

One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

 

[Pastorjack777]

One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

Christ is the 2nd part of the Trinity. The first time we see him is when God said let's go down and confound their language. Anywhere you see "The angel of the Lord" that was Christ. You see him in the burning bush. You see him in Gideon's sacrifice--too many places to mention

 

[BettyAnn]

Both when I was still Amish and later as Baptist there's always been a discussion of Jesus before He was born. For that matter, when husband and I were adventist for a few years they also discussed such.

It's confusing to me when I have people who are honestly saved and sanctified Christians who know the Word and never even thought what they were reading referred to Jesus.

One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

 

[Serving Zion]

Lol.

It seems that most people have taken the question to mean "where is Jesus in the Old Testament?"

But what I was getting at, as a question, is more could Jesus, in one form of another, have interacted with people and/or beliefs not found in the Bible all together? And therefore some ancient or possibly still existing religions/beliefs contain some of that inspiration? Or is Jesus's entire involvement with mankind from beginning to end confined to the pages of the written down Bible, as we have it today?

The Word of God is alive. It is more than letters on paper, because it is sharp and able to discern the intentions of the heart.

If the words in the bible are not used effectively, then they have no impact for God. This is the result we see when people mishandle scripture. We have a great big mess. On the other hand, when scriptures are used skillfully (in Holy Spirit, without sin, having grace, being relevant and in a form that is fit to represent God), then He is able to speak through those words and have a real impact.

There is no sinless reason to suggest that God never speaks to people of other religions through the words of their texts and prophets. To say this would be to suggest that God is not interested in, or that He doesn't find any suitable opportunity for representation in, any nation outside of Israel. That would seem preposterous as well as non-biblical (Psalms 22:27-28).

Also, even within Judaism and Christianity, there are many lost ones who though believing text from the bible, do not keep to the path of truth to stay in good relationship with God. They have chosen to not obey His voice when He speaks to them (John 5:39-40) and to take God's name for vanity.

This shows us that people - not religion - determine the success of their pursuit of accurate knowledge of God, and therefore, regardless of a geographical or religious origin, there could be within any given community, both sorts of people - those who value righteousness and love the truth as well as those who delight in unrighteousness and thus do not really love the truth.

Now, it so happens that on a geographical planet having time and mortal people, that God has found one man in one geographical area at one time (Abraham), who especially demonstrated his faith in God such as God was particularly pleased. He then blessed Abraham, instituted a promise to establish His reign through his offspring, and developed a belief system to support a plan to that effect. This is because Abraham loved righteousness and he loved God in such a way that this is a stunning example to all people, of the type of faith God ultimately desires in us.

That religion has turned out to demand a steady campaign from God as He has long wrestled with the innate obstinance and selfish tendency of the human heart, which as Matthew 21:33-46 shows, ultimately culminated in Jesus being rejected from His rightful place on earth.

Since that time, the Kingdom of God has been hotly contested in His name, seeing as the escalation of stakes has become so great. Jesus has made a very, very relevant prophecy concerning your question and the result of the fulfilment of Zionist prophecy:

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:16

This is to mean that some people from other religious origins will eventually come to have a relationship with The Word of God (the person we know as The Holy Spirit), and associate Him to the knowledge of Jesus as Christ. They will at that time, be able to recognise and accept the truths that are found in Christianity, and they will take Him as a personal saviour, Lord of their life, and a companion. As for what will happen to their traditional religious beliefs.. a case by case answer is needed. One would need to assess how much of those religious beliefs are actually consistent with truth, and how much is fabricated. I expect that the texts should continue to be useful for wisdom, because wisdom is conceptual.

 

[JLB777]

One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

• Jesus Christ is YHWH, the Lord God of Israel.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:..“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10

and again

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59

• He made Covenant with Abraham.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2

and again

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59

• He appeared to Moses and many others in the Old Testament.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”... 13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:1-4,13-14

• He became flesh, to take away our sins.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

and again

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14

and again

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

and again

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13-14

• He will come with the saints at the end of the age.

Matthew 24 & Luke 21 is about Jesus teaching His disciples privately from Zechariah.
He would return to the Mount of Olives from which He was teaching them from.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light. Zechariah 14:1-7

and again

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 14-15




JLB