If Christ existed before earthly birth, did He not interact with humans?

[Deadworm]

As a former theology professor, I of course recognize what you are saying. My point is that Stephen and Paul identify as mere angels (messengers) what many posters hear identify without justification as Christ. If Paul or Stephen intended that identification, they would have said so. Christ never speaks to anyone in the OT.

 

[RDKirk]

We don't get to impose a preconceived notion of the Trinity on Scripture without specific biblical authorization and without a recognition that, because no one can see God, God manifests His presence through representative angels. To claim that any OT angel is Christ must be demonstrated from the text, not pontificated from doctrinal preconceptions!

It's only "preconceived" for us today. It was not preconceived when it was originally conceived in the early centuries, as the Church pondered passages such as 1 Corinthians.

 

[Deadworm]

You seem to be confusing OT typology with evidence that Jesus actually speaks in the OT. Otherwise, what does your reference to 1 Corinthians mean? And what concrete evidence from the NT do you have of Jesus actually speaking to OT figures?

 

[RDKirk]

You seem to be confusing OT typology with evidence that Jesus actually speaks in the OT. Otherwise, what does your reference to 1 Corinthians mean? And what concrete evidence from the NT do you have of Jesus actually speaking to OT figures?

You seem not to have actually read what I wrote.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yet He (the one in the burning bush) called himself YHWH - said it was His Name, and a remembrance to all generations... and upon more than one occasion, accepted worship AS YHWH.

Holy angels are extensions of YHWH, they do nothing of their own will at all, and are therefore parts, like a hand or foot of his body... They are one with him...

 

[roamer_1]

Holy angels are extensions of YHWH, they do nothing of their own will at all, and are therefore parts, like a hand or foot of his body... They are one with him...

With one very important distinction - this 'angel of the Lord' accepts worship time and again, throughout the OT Every other angel that one attempts to worship will stop it and claim to be a fellow servant.

 

[Neogaia777]

With one very important distinction - this 'angel of the Lord' accepts worship time and again, throughout the OT Every other angel that one attempts to worship will stop it and claim to be a fellow servant.

Isn't it that, in the OT only angels accepted worship, but in the NT do not any longer? Due to ignorance?

 

[roamer_1]

Isn't it that, in the OT only angels accepted worship, but in the NT do not any longer? Due to ignorance?

No not all angels in the OT accepted worship - only one did. And his name is YHWH.

 

[Neogaia777]

No not all angels in the OT accepted worship - only one did. And his name is YHWH.

Do you have examples where or when an OT angel rejected worship? YHWH is a spirit, and, in order to take form has to become as or like an angel, or possess one of the extensions of his body (an angel) to relate to us, right?

Do you have examples where or when an angel (of the Lord) appeared to someone in the OT accepted worship and said it's name was YHWH?

 

[klutedavid]

Do you have examples where or when an OT angel rejected worship? YHWH is a spirit, and, in order to take form has to become as or like an angel, or possess one of the extensions of his body (an angel) to relate to us, right?

Do you have examples where or when an angel (of the Lord) appeared to someone in the OT accepted worship and said it's name was YHWH?

Hello Neogaia.

Please tell me how you understand, the following verses.

Judges 13
17 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “What is your name,
so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
18 But the messenger of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” 19 So Manoah took the young
goat with the grain offering and offered it on the rock to the Lord, and He performed wonders while Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the messenger of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 Now the messenger of the Lord did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the messenger of the Lord. 22 So Manoah said to his wife, “We will surely die, for we have seen God.”

Look's very much like the messenger, with the wonderful name,
was actually God.

I regard the posture of Manoah, face to the ground, indicating the divine status of the messenger. The wonderful name is of course, the name above all names.

 

[Norbert L]

Of I challenge you to find any clearcut OT example where Jesus speaks to someone. Put differently, I challenge you to find any scholarly Bible book commentary, whether or not by an evangelical scholar) that claims such an example. Did Christ speak to Moses through the Burning Bush or on Mount Sinai? No! Stephen's sermon in Acts identifies the speaker at the Burning Bush and the Lawgiver on Sinai as an angel, not Christ:

"God now sent [Moses] as both ruler and liberator through the angel who appeared to him in the bush (Acts 7:46)."
"He [Moses] is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai (7:38)."
"It [the Law on Sinai] was ordained by a mediator [Moses] through angels (Galatians 3:19)."

If Stephen and Paul thought these angels were manifestations of Christ, they would have said so! Yet it was God who spoke to Moses at the Burning Bush and on Sinai, but (and this is crucial) God as represented by an angelic manifestion. That is how Stephen and Paul understand this. Similarly, the "man" with whom Jacob wrestled was "God," not in the sense of Christ, but in the sense of an angel as God's representative (Genesis 32:27, 30).

Was the "fourth man in the fire Jesus? No, he was "like a son of the gods (Daniel 3:25)"--a standard description of any angelic being. The Babylonian king is a pagan and is not divinely inspired to refer to Jesus here!

We don't get to impose a preconceived notion of the Trinity on Scripture without specific biblical authorization and without a recognition that, because no one can see God, God manifests His presence through representative angels. To claim that any OT angel is Christ must be demonstrated from the text, not pontificated from doctrinal preconceptions!

Dr. Michael Heiser has published papers in scholarly journals that talk about this subject. He has a youtube presence and deals with a number of topics. One relevant video is titled "Michael Heiser - Two Powers of the Godhead"

 

[Neogaia777]

Hello Neogaia.

Please tell me how you understand, the following verses.

Judges 13
17 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “What is your name,
so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
18 But the messenger of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” 19 So Manoah took the young
goat with the grain offering and offered it on the rock to the Lord, and He performed wonders while Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the messenger of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 Now the messenger of the Lord did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the messenger of the Lord. 22 So Manoah said to his wife, “We will surely die, for we have seen God.”

First off, Manoah and his wife never did an act of worship to the angel, And the fact that the angels name was wonderful does not mean that he, or it, was "literally" God or YHWH literally, directly, but it was a Holy, probably high ranking angel, who was "one" with YHWH and was an extension of him as his messenger not having his own will, in and of himself, but always does the will of the Lord, or YHWH, and the angel is like YHWH, but not literally YHWH...

You cannot see a spirit, and God is a spirit... Trying to explain this would have been very confusing back then... The messenger or angel or it also says "man" of the Lord, just because he left and went up in the flame, does not mean he/it was literally God, or YHWH, but was one with YHWH and is like an extension of him, as all holy ones are...

I still see no where where they attempted to worship the angel directly, nor where that angel accepted worship from them...?

Look's very much like the messenger, with the wonderful name,
was actually God.

I don't think so, not literally, not alone, but is like him, only in and being a part or extension of him (YHWH) and being one with him... (Explained above)...

I regard the posture of Manoah, face to the ground, indicating the divine status of the messenger. The wonderful name is of course, the name above all names.

There are many angels with wonderful names that we cannot fully understand or comprehend, the messenger was divine, but only in YHWH, but was not literally him... To make the assumption that the angel due to having a wonderful name, had or was, the name above all names, is a mistake and is not correct, but it a loose assumption and a wrong one....

There is a big difference between one falling down or sacrificing or doing an act of worship "to the Lord" "Because of an/the angel" and in doing an act of worship "to" the angel it/himself...

The posture of Manoah after the angel had left, was an act of worship to the Lord of the angel, not the angel directly...

Got any other examples?

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

First off, Manoah and his wife never did an act of worship to the angel, And the fact that the angels name was wonderful does not mean that he, or it, was "literally" God or YHWH literally, directly, but it was a Holy, probably high ranking angel, who was "one" with YHWH and was an extension of him as his messenger not having his own will, in and of himself, but always does the will of the Lord, or YHWH, and the angel is like YHWH, but not literally YHWH...

You cannot see a spirit, and God is a spirit... Trying to explain this would have been very confusing back then... The messenger or angel or it also says "man" of the Lord, just because he left and went up in the flame, does not mean he/it was literally God, or YHWH, but was one with YHWH and is like an extension of him, as all holy ones are...

I still see no where where they attempted to worship the angel directly, nor where that angel accepted worship from them...?



I don't think so, not literally, not alone, but is like him, only in and being a part or extension of him (YHWH) and being one with him... (Explained above)...



There are many angels with wonderful names that we cannot fully understand or comprehend, the messenger was divine, but only in YHWH, but was not literally him... To make the assumption that the angel due to having a wonderful name, had or was, the name above all names, is a mistake and is not correct, but it a loose assumption and a wrong one....

There is a big difference between one falling down or sacrificing or doing an act of worship "to the Lord" "Because of an/the angel" and in doing an act of worship "to" the angel it/himself...

The posture of Manoah after the angel had left, was an act of worship to the Lord of the angel, not the angel directly...

Got any other examples?

God Bless!

Hello Neogaia.

Thank's for your reply.

Below is the description of a messenger (angel?) sent to Daniel.

Daniel 10
5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.

This messenger above, the one sent (Daniel 10:11), is an exact copy of John's vision in Revelations.

Revelation 1
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lamp stands; 13 and in the middle of the lamp stands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.

Daniel was looking at the messenger, and the messenger was Jesus.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hello Neogaia.

Thank's for your reply.

Below is the description of a messenger (angel?) sent to Daniel.

Daniel 10
5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.

This messenger above, the one sent (Daniel 10:11), is an exact copy of John's vision in Revelations.

Revelation 1
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lamp stands; 13 and in the middle of the lamp stands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.

Daniel was looking at the messenger, and the messenger was Jesus.

If you believe Jesus is God, or YHWH, then those are angelic extensions of God, for no one has seen God at any time, and you cannot see God and live...

They are "like him" but in the purest sense, not literally him... And I do not recall those angels that you speak of ever accepting personal worship either...

They are great, powerful and mighty, holy angels, but not literally what God's true form is... For we cannot see his true form cause he is spirit... Paul on the Damascus road came the closest probably to seeing with his eyes, God's true form... It was a brilliant, bright, white light, that knocked him off of his horse when he tried to look directly at it, kinda like looking into the sun, from space, with nothing to protect you or your sight, you go blind, or in God's case, if you try to gaze upon too long will die...

Paul could only see the light, but could not make out the shape or form, before going blind and getting knocked down, this is like seeing God in his true form, with no angel in between...

You either believe Jesus is God and is a spirit in his true form, or you are saying that he is mighty, created angel, like other angels, and like Lucifer was and is...

God knew humans would make this mistake, which is why I believe the angels we would be inclined to worship, did not give their names...

Even Moses did not see God, or the Lord when he passed by him, but it was a mighty, holy angel, alot like the angel in Revelation who stood with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea... Mighty to be sure, but not literally God, yet they are one with him however and are a part of his body... God has to use angels to appear to us in the physical realm, he cannot appear in the physical realm in his true, pure, purely spirit form...

That angel is Jesus, yes, but it is only Jesus appearing to us, through and extension of himself, through a great, mighty, and holy angel...

God' true form cannot be seen, except in and from the spiritual realm possibly, and I do not know if it/he even can then either, except maybe only as a very bright light like the sun...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If you believe Jesus is God, or YHWH, then those are angelic extensions of God, for no one has seen God at any time, and you cannot see God and live...

They are "like him" but in the purest sense, not literally him... And I do not recall those angels that you speak of ever accepting personal worship either...

They are great, powerful and mighty, holy angels, but not literally what God's true form is... For we cannot see his true form cause he is spirit... Paul on the Damascus road came the closest probably to seeing with his eyes, God's true form... It was a brilliant, bright, white light, that knocked him off of his horse when he tried to look directly at it, kinda like looking into the sun, from space, with nothing to protect you or your sight, you go blind, or in God's case, if you try to gaze upon too long will die...

Paul could only see the light, but could not make out the shape or form, before going blind and getting knocked down, this is like seeing God in his true form, with no angel in between...

You either believe Jesus is God and is a spirit in his true form, or you are saying that he is mighty, created angel, like other angels, and like Lucifer was and is...

God knew humans would make this mistake, which is why I believe the angels we would be inclined to worship, did not give their names...

Even Moses did not see God, or the Lord when he passed by him, but it was a mighty, holy angel, alot like the angel in Revelation who stood with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea... Mighty to be sure, but not literally God, yet they are one with him however and are a part of his body... God has to use angels to appear to us in the physical realm, he cannot appear in the physical realm in his true, pure, purely spirit form...

That angel is Jesus, yes, but it is only Jesus appearing to us, through and extension of himself, through a great, mighty, and holy angel...

God' true form cannot be seen, except in and from the spiritual realm possibly, and I do not know if it/he even can then either, except maybe only as a very bright light like the sun...

God Bless!

When you understand that God is "all" and yet not literally all, in the strictest, purest sense of the word, but is one with all, and all is/are extensions of himself, well... When you understand that God has no form for us to be able to behold, except through the extensions of himself, the angels, then...

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Neogaia.

I need to address this post in more detail.

First off, Manoah and his wife never did an act of worship to the angel

I prefer you use the word, messenger, rather than angel.

Because the text clearly states, the messenger of YHWH, not just some ministering angel. Angels usually identify themselves and will not tolerate people, bowing, or worshiping them.

And the fact that the angels name was wonderful does not mean that he, or it, was "literally" God or YHWH literally.

The messenger with the wonderful name, would not reveal His name, because the time had not yet arrived. The messenger sent, has the appearance of a man, the same as in the visions of YHWH. It is always a vision of a man on the throne.

but it was a Holy, probably high ranking angel, who was "one" with YHWH and was an extension of him as his messenger not having his own will, in and of himself, but always does the will of the Lord, or YHWH, and the angel is like YHWH, but not literally YHWH...

Where ever this messenger stands, the ground is holy ground.

The presence of this messenger of YHWH, always speaks in the first person as God Himself. Not an extension of God, the messenger accepts worship. No angel can accept worship!

You cannot see a spirit, and God is a spirit...

Jesus is the visible fullness of Deity in bodily form. The alpha and the omega, was the spiritual rock that guided Israel through the wilderness. People actually saw God in the Old Testament, and they lived to tell the tale.

I don't think so, not literally, not alone, but is like him, only in and being a part or extension of him (YHWH) and being one with him... (Explained above)...

YHWH was Jesus, YHWH was visible to humanity. The Father is invisible and in Spirit form. Your confusing the Son with the Father. The Father sent the Son, hence, the Son became the messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.

Your created in the image of the eternal, Christ Jesus, He has the appearance of a man. You are not created in the image of the invisible Father, otherwise, I could not see you. Jesus created you in His image, Jesus is your Lord, you will bow to Jesus.

Jesus was YHWH, the visible God in the Old Testament.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hello Neogaia.

I need to address this post in more detail.

I prefer you use the word, messenger, rather than angel.

Because the text clearly states, the messenger of YHWH, not just some ministering angel. Angels usually identify themselves and will not tolerate people, bowing, or worshiping them.

The messenger with the wonderful name, would not reveal His name, because the time had not yet arrived. The messenger sent, has the appearance of a man, the same as in the visions of YHWH. It is always a vision of a man on the throne.

Where ever this messenger stands, the ground is holy ground.

The presence of this messenger of YHWH, always speaks in the first person as God Himself. Not an extension of God, the messenger accepts worship. No angel can accept worship!

Jesus is the visible fullness of Deity in bodily form. The alpha and the omega, was the spiritual rock that guided Israel through the wilderness. People actually saw God in the Old Testament, and they lived to tell the tale.

YHWH was Jesus, YHWH was visible to humanity. The Father is invisible and in Spirit form. Your confusing the Son with the Father. The Father sent the Son, hence, the Son became the messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.

Your created in the image of the eternal, Christ Jesus, He has the appearance of a man. You are not created in the image of the invisible Father, otherwise, I could not see you. Jesus created you in His image, Jesus is your Lord, you will bow to Jesus.

Jesus was YHWH, the visible God in the Old Testament.

Jesus is one with God, the Father, any forms of him in this realm are limited and are not literally God, but manifestations of extensions of him, called messengers or angels, that are one and in union with him, but that are explained to us as also being him, yet not the complete fullness of him, for the physical cannot contain it/him... or do you not Believe John 1:1?

The reasons for YHWH appearing to us in the likeness and image of a man, is because he wants us to know, that, as great and high and mighty, and how so not like us he might appear to be... He wants us to know and concentrate on getting to know him personally and how he and all other creatures, but, mainly "he" is like us, in so many ways...

He had to come to us, as one of us, to try and show us, and to attempt to get us to understand this...

God Bless!

 

[Aryeh]

In the book of Enoch, a lot of things are made clearer than in the cannon (at least, in my opinion.) It is too bad that it is not considered cannon anymore in the West.

In the books of Enoch that mirror the five first books of the OT (and even other places,) there is an entity called the Ancient of Days, and an entity called The Lord of Spirits.

They are distinct; the Ancient of Days is the One who interacts with creation, the patriarchs, was around for the human interactions on earth attributed to God (or angels.) He gave law, declared and commanded. The Ancient of Days was also show as "answering" only to the Lord of Spirits.

The Lord of Spirits interacts with the angels, principalities, archons, powers, etc. in the same way the Ancient of Days interacts with creation.

The Lord of Spirits is God the Father, and the Ancient of Days is Christ.

 

[Hank77]

Hello Neogaia.

Please tell me how you understand, the following verses.

Judges 13
17 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “What is your name,
so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
18 But the messenger of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” 19 So Manoah took the young
goat with the grain offering and offered it on the rock to the Lord, and He performed wonders while Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the messenger of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 Now the messenger of the Lord did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the messenger of the Lord. 22 So Manoah said to his wife, “We will surely die, for we have seen God.”

Look's very much like the messenger, with the wonderful name,
was actually God.

I regard the posture of Manoah, face to the ground, indicating the divine status of the messenger. The wonderful name is of course, the name above all names.

Isa 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

 

[Neogaia777]

In the book of Enoch, a lot of things are made clearer than in the cannon (at least, in my opinion.) It is too bad that it is not considered cannon anymore in the West.

In the books of Enoch that mirror the five first books of the OT (and even other places,) there is an entity called the Ancient of Days, and an entity called The Lord of Spirits.

They are distinct; the Ancient of Days is the One who interacts with creation, the patriarchs, was around for the human interactions on earth attributed to God (or angels.) He gave law, declared and commanded. The Ancient of Days was also show as "answering" only to the Lord of Spirits.

The Lord of Spirits interacts with the angels, principalities, archons, powers, etc. in the same way the Ancient of Days interacts with creation.

The Lord of Spirits is God the Father, and the Ancient of Days is Christ.

Interesting...? Got a good link to look into those...? Are they valid books...?

Was Adam with the ancient of days, or the Lord of spirits as his God...?

God Bless!