Iconoclasm and the Incarnation

[Commander Xenophon]

I object to the numerous posts I've read on these boards against the veneration of sacred images. Because our Lord became incarnate, images depicting him are expressly allowed and always have been, and the sacred tradition of the Orthodox Church and the Second Council of Nicea affirm this.

 

[Wgw]

I object to the numerous posts I've read on these boards against the veneration of sacred images. Because our Lord became incarnate, images depicting him are expressly allowed and always have been, and the sacred tradition of the Orthodox Church and the Second Council of Nicea affirm this.

I agree; there has been rather too much of this, although the most annoying iconoclast threads have since been closed...mostly. There has not been one for a few weeks.

 

[1213]

I object to the numerous posts I've read on these boards against the veneration of sacred images. Because our Lord became incarnate, images depicting him are expressly allowed and always have been, and the sacred tradition of the Orthodox Church and the Second Council of Nicea affirm this.

What is your opinion about this:
"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:4-6

What do you think that means? And should disciples of Jesus (“Christians”) live according to that?

 

[Commander Xenophon]

What is your opinion about this:
"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:4-6

What do you think that means? And should disciples of Jesus (“Christians”) live according to that?

What do I think?

Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the iconoclasts.

Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.

Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.

Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.

Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.

Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.

Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord has delivered us from idols.

Anathema to those who dare to say that the Orthodox Church has at any time sanctioned idols.

Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.

- From the Second Council of Nicea, 787 AD

 

[1213]

What do I think?

Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the iconoclasts.
...

Ok, so are you saying that OT is wrong and anathema for those who believe what the OT says?

 

[cgaviria]

I object to the numerous posts I've read on these boards against the veneration of sacred images. Because our Lord became incarnate, images depicting him are expressly allowed and always have been, and the sacred tradition of the Orthodox Church and the Second Council of Nicea affirm this.

It is not allowed, hence the law of idolatry,

"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, (Exodus 20:4 [NIV])

Making a statue of Jesus Christ is definitely against the law of idolatry. We have never been instructed to create such statues, therefore it is a sin to make them, or to even approve of allowing these statues to be made.

 

[Wgw]

I recently made a similiar post elsewhere, but here we go again:

Idols:

View media item 53717
Not Idols:

View media item 53720
View media item 53718
View media item 53721

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Ok, so are you saying that OT is wrong and anathema for those who believe what the OT says?

No, what I am saying is the OT is right, and anathema to those who say the Holy Orthodox Church contravenes it.

 

[Wgw]

It is not allowed, hence the law of idolatry,


Making a statue of Jesus Christ is definitely against the law of idolatry. We have never been instructed to create such statues, therefore it is a sin to make them, or to even approve of allowing these statues to be made.

The Orthodox do not do statues, so that's a bit of a strawman.

 

[cgaviria]

The Orthodox do not do statues, so that's a bit of a strawman.

Even creating pictures depicting sacred things is a form of idolatry. And there is no edifying purpose in creating these pictures either.

 

[Wgw]

Even creating pictures depicting sacred things is a form of idolatry.

Well, in that case, you should really rather delete your profile picture. For you, as a human being, are sacred, having been created in the image of God and being consubstantial with Him according to the Incarnation of our Lord. Thus, a picture of you is a picture of God.

And there is no edifying purpose in creating these pictures either.

There is in fact, in that they express as clearly as possible the reality of the Incarnation.

 

[cgaviria]

Well, in that case, you should really rather delete your profile picture. For you, as a human being, are sacred, having been created in the image of God and being consubstantial with Him according to the Incarnation of our Lord. Thus, a picture of you is a picture of God.



There is in fact, in that they express as clearly as possible the reality of the Incarnation.

There is a difference between a photograph taken from real life, and a depiction. A photograph is a true account of whatever the picture has. No different than writing words on paper describing a true account. And as they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words." Whereas when you are drawing these depictions of these people, you are creating false drawings of people you've never seen, and then using them in relation to the things of God which is prohibited to be done in accordance with the Law of Moses. God does not desire for us to make depictions of anything that relates to him to worship, but instead, we are to worship in spirit and in truth. Without the use of these false drawings, or statues.

 

[1213]

No, what I am saying is the OT is right, and anathema to those who say the Holy Orthodox Church contravenes it.

Good, then we probably agree that people should be careful with pictures, so that they don’t worship them.

People should remember that image of God is not God. And we should not make images of God (idols, an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed).

Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone, engraved by art and design of man.
Acts 17:29

"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Ex. 20:4

 

[Simon Crosby]

One thing I regret about Anglicanism is the iconoclasm of the early years.

There is a difference between a photograph taken from real life, and a depiction. A photograph is a true account of whatever the picture has. No different than writing words on paper describing a true account. And as they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words." Whereas when you are drawing these depictions of these people, you are creating false drawings of people you've never seen, and then using them in relation to the things of God which is prohibited to be done in accordance with the Law of Moses. God does not desire for us to make depictions of anything that relates to him to worship, but instead, we are to worship in spirit and in truth. Without the use of these false drawings, or statues.

No, because to the extent our Saviour is consubstantial with us, God with us, any depiction of a human can be refarded as an image of Him and indeed of the Father.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Good, then we probably agree that people should be careful with pictures, so that they don’t worship them.

People should remember that image of God is not God. And we should not make images of God (idols, an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed).

Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone, engraved by art and design of man.
Acts 17:29

"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Ex. 20:4

We can make images of God owing to the incarnation. Because God became human, we can depict His assumed humanity.

 

[1213]

We can make images of God owing to the incarnation. Because God became human, we can depict His assumed humanity.

I think that is not accurately what the Bible tells. According to the Bible, Jesus is not incarnate. Jesus is the temple of God, a place where God dwells. If you believe Jesus is God, then I think images of Jesus are images of God and forbidden according to the OT. And even if you think Jesus is the King as the Bible teaches, I think it is against OT, but that is just how I understand the Bible. But I am not going to judge anyone because of that.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works. …
John 14:10-14

That is why Jesus could say:

About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?" That is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Mat. 27:46