I need to know the truth...is Rom 9:21 true ?

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

 

[John Hyperspace]

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

It's true, yes. It's all up to God in the end. Everything you do is God causing you to do it through His will, hardening whom He will, showing mercy on whom He will. Does this make you uncomfortable?

 

[TurtleAnne]

To me it's sort of like how there are various personality traits that are predetermined from birth. These traits can become strengths and weaknesses both in one.

Then people have their experiences, all sorts of experiences.. physical, witnessing things, emotional, mental, relationships, and just on and on. And people can choose how to apply their traits to those experiences, whether to grow and change, or not, or if so, how to grow and change.

Hardening pharaoh's heart did not override pharaoh's free will, but did cause pharaoh to have an experience, and nudged pharaoh in a direction, but ultimately pharaoh made his own decisions. Sort of like how if you know someone really well (and God knows us all completely, so) you might know to say a certain thing and in a certain way, to get a certain response, and this is often done with good intentions by people, and sometimes.. not so much, but it's like that.

I believe that people, if they are open to it, will have defining and changing moments in their lives, when they are faced by everything in a situation that they cannot control, but there is still an aspect of free will. We are all just dealt different cards in life, so to speak.

Like speaking of wrath, I've had a lot of that over the years, certain things really set me off, especially. In some cases this was very important, in the grand scheme of a situation, and in other cases it was destructive, detrimental. Likewise I have known people who were quite my opposite, very meek and passive, and in some situations it was very important that their persona was there, and in other cases I had to compensate for them.

We are all woven together this way, and for each God has plan and purpose.

 

[BeachBabe87]

Scripture always interprets scripture, if you don't understand one aspect, you need a concordance to look up and cross reference other scripture, this is how you will know it's true and you'll also gain full understanding.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

It is absolutely true. It means that God is. . . well. . . God.

Read Ephesians 1, John 6, and John 10 for more direct confirmation, but the entire Bible tells the same story.

Lastly, this does not negate man's responsibility.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Scripture always interprets scripture, if you don't understand one aspect, you need a concordance to look up and cross reference other scripture, this is how you will know it's true and you'll also gain full understanding.

I agree about referencing Scripture with Scripture; this is really a helpful and essential way of doing prayerful Bible study, as the Lord also illuminates by His Spirit.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

It's true, yes. It's all up to God in the end. Everything you do is God causing you to do it through His will, hardening whom He will, showing mercy on whom He will. Does this make you uncomfortable?

YES very uncomfortable... Because its like if I wanted to change and be good..I couldn't do it. It depends on God, like if I pray and pray for god to help me and convict me of sin and be a better person(which I have prayed for( yet I get met with silence because .,,God has deemed me to be a vessel for destruction,.,that's highly messed up!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

YES very uncomfortable... Because its like if I wanted to change and be good..I couldn't do it. It depends on God, like if I pray and pray for god to help me and convict me of sin and be a better person(which I have prayed for( yet I get met with silence because .,,God has deemed me to be a vessel for destruction,.,that's highly messed up!

Doesn't work that way.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

To me it's sort of like how there are various personality traits that are predetermined from birth. These traits can become strengths and weaknesses both in one.

Then people have their experiences, all sorts of experiences.. physical, witnessing things, emotional, mental, relationships, and just on and on. And people can choose how to apply their traits to those experiences, whether to grow and change, or not, or if so, how to grow and change.

Hardening pharaoh's heart did not override pharaoh's free will, but did cause pharaoh to have an experience, and nudged pharaoh in a direction, but ultimately pharaoh made his own decisions. Sort of like how if you know someone really well (and God knows us all completely, so) you might know to say a certain thing and in a certain way, to get a certain response, and this is often done with good intentions by people, and sometimes.. not so much, but it's like that.

I believe that people, if they are open to it, will have defining and changing moments in their lives, when they are faced by everything in a situation that they cannot control, but there is still an aspect of free will. We are all just dealt different cards in life, so to speak.

Like speaking of wrath, I've had a lot of that over the years, certain things really set me off, especially. In some cases this was very important, in the grand scheme of a situation, and in other cases it was destructive, detrimental. Likewise I have known people who were quite my opposite, very meek and passive, and in some situations it was very important that their persona was there, and in other cases I had to compensate for them.

We are all woven together this way, and for each God has plan and purpose.

But what about Esau and jacob, he chose jacob before either of them did anything. He didn't look at their beat,the chose Jacob just because.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Scripture always interprets scripture, if you don't understand one aspect, you need a concordance to look up and cross reference other scripture, this is how you will know it's true and you'll also gain full understanding.

What is a concordance?

 

[CodyFaith]

These verses do not mean that a person does not have free will.

They are destined for wrath because God foreknew that they would not repent or turn to Christ.

These verses are often misinterpreted to mean someone doesn't have free will.

God has mercy on those he feel "deserves"(for lack of a better word) mercy. He doesn't just pick random people by eenie meenie minie moe.

 

[CodyFaith]

Only certain people will come to Christ. The pure in heart, those who seek after righteousness, etc. etc.

We do not earn it however, because God only provides a way out of his mercy.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

They are destined for wrath because God foreknew that they would not repent or turn to Christ.

What biblical text did you get that idea from? Your post is in direct opposition to His word.

before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

These verses do not mean that a person does not have free will.

They are destined for wrath because God foreknew that they would not repent or turn to Christ.

These verses are often misinterpreted to mean someone doesn't have free will.

God has mercy on those he feel "deserves"(for lack of a better word) mercy. He doesn't just pick random people by eenie meenie minie moe.

But he did with Esau and Jacob...Also, I really like your answer saying he chooses those who deserve mercy and those who don't....but then what about Indian children born into brothels and spend an entire life in prostitution, who never have a chance to live a good life ..or children in Africa starving to death...where is their mercy? I'm not trying to be difficult...I just would like an answer.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Only certain people will come to Christ. The pure in heart, those who seek after righteousness, etc. etc.

We do not earn it however, because God only provides a way out of his mercy.

But that's the thing...if were all born into sin...who among us really pure in heart?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But he did with Esau and Jacob...Also, I really like your answer saying he chooses those who deserve mercy and those who don't....but then what about Indian children born into brothels and spend an entire life in prostitution, who never have a chance to live a good life ..or children in Africa starving to death...where is their mercy? I'm not trying to be difficult...I just would like an answer.

Who "deserves" mercy? If mercy is deserved, it is not mercy.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.” (Romans 3)

 

[John Hyperspace]

YES very uncomfortable... Because its like if I wanted to change and be good..I couldn't do it. It depends on God, like if I pray and pray for god to help me and convict me of sin and be a better person(which I have prayed for( yet I get met with silence because .,,God has deemed me to be a vessel for destruction,.,that's highly messed up!

Right, you could only "be good" if God wanted it, since only God can impart the Spirit to whom He wills (showing mercy): it's up to God to change the heart: Ezekiel 36:26. Well just think about all of the people in the bible. They all got to see and hear God directly. Israelites got to see the sea being split, and God coming down on Mount Sinai. The apostles got to witness miracles firsthand. Paul got to encounter Jesus. No such event for anyone of us, right?

But bear in mind that "destruction" doesn't mean a "full end": when a person is "born again" the old is destroyed and the new is created. Every act of creation of the new is an act of destruction of the old. What if it all turns out great in the end? You see how the temple was destroyed; then rebuilt in the scripture? I would agree that it would be seriously messed up if people are actually willed by God into endless destruction in a full end; but that's not what scripture teaches me at all. So from that point of view; is predetermination uncomfortable if it leads to an ultimate good ending? If a child is lead by the hand by her mother, she has no freedom; but is it wrong for the mother to guide the child by the hand according to the will of the mother, and not the child?

 

[CodyFaith]

What biblical text did you get that idea from? Your post is in direct opposition to His word.

before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

First of all, I believe the quote "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated" is misinterpreted by many to suggest God literally hated Esau, I believe it is hated in reference to favor. I believe it also could be worded "Jacob I have chosen, Esau I have not" - it's all in regards to the lineage of whom Israel would be descended from.

You can learn things without reading scripture. Wisdom shows it's foolish to think that God chooses people to torture for all eternity and others to bring into paradise if both parties are equal in that they had no free-will, could not make choices between right or wrong in their own efforts.

 

[John Hyperspace]

These verses do not mean that a person does not have free will.

How do they not mean this?

They are destined for wrath because God foreknew that they would not repent or turn to Christ.

The passages don't hint at that. That would be God knowing their will; the passage clearly states that these things are caused by the will of God; and not that "God foresaw their own will"

But even if it did, why would God create people knowing they would never repent and turn to Christ? If God willingly created such people knowing their outcome, then God willed them to that outcome by bringing them into existence when He didn't have to.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Wisdom shows it's foolish to think that God chooses people

My wisdom is derived from what God has revealed in His word, not what my own personal understanding of these matters is.

The error that many make is starting with the presupposition that all men are neutral, which is certainly not the case. All men are der=serving of God's wrath, yet He shows mercy to some.