I just realized ...

[ArmyMatt]

Christmas is going to seem odd, being celebrated "late"? I suspect we will still need to do it as traditional for the sake of my husband and daughter.

well, it's not late per say, it's just celebrated on the traditional day of Dec 25th, which for us is Jan 7th.

and I agree with the earlier question, how is your hubby and daughter doing with Orthodoxy if you don't mind me asking?

 

[nutroll]

That fact that Christmas......oooops....."Nativity" is on the same day as everyone else indicates to me that EO does not have the same investment in it as it does Pascha. In fact, Nativity is just one of 12 major feasts, all equal, whereas Pascha is bigger than all 12 of those combined. I appreciate the "demotion" of Christmas, since it has been a holiday that is pretty upsetting in a lot of different ways. Now Pascha, there's one I can throw myself into without reservation, since I have no bad childhood memories (we didn't even celebrate it at all, not even a few jelly beans). And the Resurrection became very HUGE in my life at Pascha (my first one) this year......far bigger and better than the best Christmas I ever had.

Christmas does not get a demotion in Orthodoxy. Even our minor feast days are more lofty and exalted, while also solemn and sober, than Jingle Bells and Frosty the Snowman. Without Christmas, there can be no Pascha. The Major Feast Days are so important to our salvation. Wait until you celebrate Theophany, and learn that it is important as a manifestation of the Holy Trinity; and that Christ being baptized sanctified the waters of the Jordan; and that we bless the water and use it to bless our homes. Or wait until you find out that the significance of the Ascension of Christ is not that it was just Jesus' homecoming parade, but that he took our human nature with him and was enthroned as a man on the right hand of God the Father. The Church digs into the meaning of each aspect of Christ's life in ways most people would never expect. Christmas gets a huge promotion. The other 11 major feasts are elevated to a higher level than most Christians would give to Christmas. Pascha is the Feast of Feasts, and stands at the pinnacle of our celebrations, but it is all part of the same mystery of a Good who would not cease to do all that He could to bring us back to Himself.

 

[~Anastasia~]

well, it's not late per say, it's just celebrated on the traditional day of Dec 25th, which for us is Jan 7th.

and I agree with the earlier question, how is your hubby and daughter doing with Orthodoxy if you don't mind me asking?

I haven't figured the whole calendar thing out. Thank you for the info.

They are not doing great at the moment.

My daughter is just inconvenienced by me needing to drop her off/pick her up around sometimes going to church, so she "doesn't understand why I need to go" or why my husband and I can't go together and leave her the car. She's being a kid - one of her rare moments, so I don't hold it against her.

My husband came to church with me for the Agape Vespers on Pascha. And attended the picnic. I thought things went well. He had positive comments to make. Then 4 or 5 days went by without him saying anything, and he said he was felt he was needed elsewhere and was grieved and thought I was being disrespectful to him by wanting to go to a church he hadn't chosen. (Not to be disagreeable, but I have waited over 4 years hoping he would find a church - I need to be in one!)

Now he's more direct, he thinks I'm in a cult, he thinks it's the "wrong church" and he says they "have rituals". I appreciate his steadfastness to what he believes. But he doesn't have any "reasons" other than what he's "used to" and thinks it must be right. He went back to a Southern Baptist church last week (which wasn't "the one" either ... I'm kind of glad because they were trying to get him involved in a singles group there (!) because I didn't go to church with him, which I find very inappropriate).

I didn't actually expect to embrace the Orthodox Church, to be honest. I will be very honest - I found theologies I appreciated within several churches. The Catholic catechism, while I disagree on some points, had useful writings, for example. What I thought would happen is that I would learn what was there, take what was good, find out what the liturgy was about (because God seemed to be prompting me very strongly to attend), and then I expected to be on my way in a few months.

And certain things (namely probably those very "rituals" that bother my husband so) gave me extreme pause. But I have been praying to understand this and that, and it was like a light suddenly came on. I get it. I understand why -- my various questions. My interest in every other church suddenly vanished. I honestly can't imagine going anywhere else. I haven't wanted to speak of that here, because I don't wish to offend the many who hold other opinions, and I DO see much of value in many different churches, and I love and respect many of the people I've met here.

But the idea of abandoning the church now is unthinkable to me. For the sake of peace, for the sake of any person, even for the sake of my husband.

It puts me in a hard position.

(I will say this ... when I really concentrate on it in prayer, I actually see a difference in him and his level of acceptance ... but it's like fighting a battle, and I'm not always up for it. I should be though, it's too important.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Christmas does not get a demotion in Orthodoxy. Even our minor feast days are more lofty and exalted, while also solemn and sober, than Jingle Bells and Frosty the Snowman. Without Christmas, there can be no Pascha. The Major Feast Days are so important to our salvation. Wait until you celebrate Theophany, and learn that it is important as a manifestation of the Holy Trinity; and that Christ being baptized sanctified the waters of the Jordan; and that we bless the water and use it to bless our homes. Or wait until you find out that the significance of the Ascension of Christ is not that it was just Jesus' homecoming parade, but that he took our human nature with him and was enthroned as a man on the right hand of God the Father. The Church digs into the meaning of each aspect of Christ's life in ways most people would never expect. Christmas gets a huge promotion. The other 11 major feasts are elevated to a higher level than most Christians would give to Christmas. Pascha is the Feast of Feasts, and stands at the pinnacle of our celebrations, but it is all part of the same mystery of a Good who would not cease to do all that He could to bring us back to Himself.

I appreciate what you say here. I'm really going to have to learn about the feasts.

What I absolutely love is the way everything in the church points to Christ, and our salvation. I want to say something profound about that, but I can't do it justice. I've only just begun to learn. But even when it looks like it's going to be about the Theotokos, suddenly it all points to Christ. Always, it seems. And you are saying more of the same. I really appreciate that aspect of the church.

Thank you for the post.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Feast days are celebrated with a Divine Liturgy. And did you know that some Feast Days can still be fasting days?

And Greek parishes in the U.S. are on the "new" calendar, so Nativity is the same as everyone else. Which has its good points and its bad points, either way.

How's your husband doing? Is he interested at all in Orthodoxy?

Mary

Thank you, Mary.

No, I did not know that. About feast days being fasting days, which sounds odd, lol.

I also didn't know about the calendar, something I have looked into only a little. I just assumed, because I checked the church calendar going back as far as it did (January) and there are still lots of special services regarding the Nativity I think? I was just looking for the "usual pattern" not the details, so I could have that wrong.

As to my husband, I just answered that in ArmyMatt's reply (going backwards). Everyone is talking in the thread now, and it's been some day. We've had a lot of storms, flash floods, some cleanup to take care of, and my daughter was stranded out in it all last night. I finally got a few hours to sleep this afternoon, so I wasn't online.

But really pleased to "see" you all.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I still haven't had a chance to read up on Luther and the EO. Going back (was it Larry that said they wouldn't have him?) ... I'm sure the EO would have accepted Luther (I would think) but I seriously doubt they would have compromised for him. It seems Luther had some strong opinions (not that that's a bad thing at all) but I have seen a few indications that his heart WAS to join with "the Church" - so whether that was EO or CC, it seems sadly ironic that his establishment of a new church might have helped lead (in the US) to so many denominations - at least by way of setting a precedent?

EO is very mystically inclined, which in my opinion, could have been a very valuable asset for Protestantism. So much Protestant thought is pure human logic that leads to a distressingly-high attraction to atheism and agnosticism.

That was one of the strengths I saw I saw in the EO as compared to Lutheranism. I was in the first stages of examining the theology of both, and now I see more differences of course.

But many of the Protestant churches stripped that away, and then it seems the pendulum swung back the other way (perhaps too far in reaction?) in some denominations.

There was clearly resistance on both sides. EO probably looked at Luther as a "quasi-Roman Catholic" and EO had just succeeded 500 years before in separating from Rome.

I know you weren't talking to me, but that's an ironic thought to my mind. I can imagine it might be true though.

Summarily throwing out 1500 years of tradition (i.e. "preservation and practice of orally-delivered sermons and statements of the Apostles") was a massive mistake of the Protestants. Especially considering that the Protestant reform impulse was solely due to the rampant corruption of Rome.

This is the part that I don't understand. I don't know, if they rejected the CC so thoroughly ... no. Actually I try to make that thought, but it still doesn't make sense. However, it would seem in Luther's case it wasn't dismissal. Perhaps in the case of some other churches.

Looking at it from this end of history telescoped out, it makes sense to me to go back and consider what was before, how it changed, by who, when, and examine those ideas, then decide what to do from that point.

But then again, that's sort of the path I took, which may be why it makes sense to me.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Although the knowledge is one aspect within Orthodoxy which can be developed in time (one excellent spot for development being here ), there is something to be said on the reality of others who are separated from Divine Liturgy many times due to distance or other concerns (i.e. having to stay home/take care of disabled children, no transportation, etc.) - and chanting liturgy by themselves was not something that the Church was ever against.

And on the chanting issue, one can go here if wanting more information:

• Learn to Chant — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

There are others besides that, of course.

I will check out the information. It ought to be possible. As far as my voice, I don't get it. I can sing, actually. But it's not the same thing.

We have almost all men chanting in our church anyway. There is one woman. But I'm used to hearing men's voices, so that can be part of my problem. I can't replicate that. But I'll check out those resources, thank you.

Interesting what you and (was it Larry?) were discussing about the importance of attending Divine Liturgy. I'm obviously not baptized/chrismated, so for me it's just being there for prayers, hymns, etc. Possibly being IN church and all that brings with it. Or being with the people. But it has become important to me more than I expected, especially considering I don't participate in the Eucharist or any sacrament.

Then again, I've been thinking about that since I read your post earlier today. My spiritual life has always been supported by my participation in worship. When I was alone, it was my prayers. When I went to Baptist/pentecostal churches, it was in the singing. Funny, while I enjoy being taught, the sermon was never anything I "needed" in the same way. I think now maybe it's because I didn't "participate" in it. But in the Divine Liturgy (or any of the services), I participate all the way through.

It's funny, because that's what I didn't like about the liturgical churches at first. It felt as though I was an observer, not participating at all. And it felt like I might as well not be there. I couldn't understand WHY there should be any liturgy. But somehow that changed, and now I participate in every part, even when I'm attending to the readings or listening to the prayers, because I add my own. It's so much more involved than I realized at first. So the entire service is part of my "life" spiritually. I didn't realize the reason for all that before I read your posts today. Thank you.

The only part I feel non-participatory IS the Eucharist, which I just stand, wait, make sure I get out of the way. But all the rest is very important to me even now.

 

[LarryP2]

Now he's more direct, he thinks I'm in a cult, he thinks it's the "wrong church" and he says they "have rituals".

If anyone has to worry about belonging to a cult it is ME! I grew up in one that I had to fight tooth and nail to escape when I was 22 (SDA)) and then when I was 26, I got sucked right into another, even WORSE one ("The Way International") Fortunately, I as able to extricate myself from that one a lot easier, other than leaving a girlfriend behind. I spent many many hours on the internet researching Orthodoxy before I ever walked through the doors the first time. I Googled search strings of "sexual+scandal+Orthodoxy" in various arrangements and the worst thing I could find was the US Metropolitan wanted priests to do away with ponytails and keep their beards trimmed. THAT's what amounts to a scandal in Eastern Orthodoxy.

So yeah, the rituals and everything of Orthodoxy were pretty spooky to me. But one thing is crystal clear I believe: The Orthodox do EXACTLY what they were told to do by the Apostles. They have a 2,000 year history of doing EXACTLY as they were told. They never had a Protestant Reformation. They did not need one. There was nothing to "reform." When you look at how they handled attempted ecumenical embraces by both Martin Luther and recently by Catholicism, they have always stuck to their guns. I mean really: Leavened versus unleavened bread in the Eucharist? They make THAT an insurmountable issue? That just proves they have never changed, not one bit.

 

[Philothei]

It is funny you all mention that about the 'cult' for there are indeed most who believe we are just that...but anyway not to derail here....

The reason we are diverse in our worship and feast days is that each 'ethnic' church has its own saints....now in the USA multiply this to the number of ethnic churches lol...and you got a rich liturgical life...But some major saints do run across all churches like St. George etc. If you are in a area with Russian, Serbian Antiochean etc. churches you can end up in church every single day

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah, as far as I'm concerned, nothing is particularly off topic here. If it's ok with y'all.

But yes, the "cult" part - that is kind of discouraging. I could understand if he walked in and said "Catholic". Though ... you know what? I kind of suspect that he actually wouldn't recognize what is "Catholic" about it and what is not, beyond pictures of the Theotokos giving that impression.

Considering what I knew, and what I have learned ... my guess is that the average Protestant might not recognize certain things. At least not one with a limited background, which his is limited to one church and one teacher, for the most part.

Ah, now that I think about that ... I should actually be more concerned that his background is a bit "cultish" -- and in some senses it is.

I remember when we first met, and he and I were in Wal-Mart together, and saw my pastor there. We stopped and chatted with him, and my husband was amazed that the pastor went to Wal-Mart. I asked him why, and he said he thought he would have someone else do those kinds of things for him (!). He rather idolized his own pastor, and said that he had armed bodyguards at certain times, and so on. I think he really didn't believe the man got up and put his pants on in the morning. (not to be crude here)

But in looking back, I'm just now putting 2 and 2 together. Yes, for many years ALL of his teaching came from that one man. And he did place him on an extremely high pedestal. I think ... that kind of thinking can be dangerous.

And it's what made me worry about bringing him to church. His pastor taught (with some venom at times) against Catholics, charismatics, and a number of other churches. It took some very careful treading to let him understand that my conservative pentecostal-leaning church wasn't "of the devil" ... and he had enough tendencies in himself for spirituality that I had assumed at first we shared beliefs.

Now that I find myself in Orthodoxy, the funny thing is that again, I have asked his opinion on many, many things before I started going to the church, as I worked out theology on my own. And in nearly every case, he gave me an Orthodox answer.

He believes very much of what the church believes. He just can't accept it because the echoes of his old pastor close his eyes and ears as soon as he sees a picture of a saint, a priest's vestment, or anyone crossing themselves.

And says I'm in a cult.

Hmmmm .....

 

[Philothei]

Ah, as far as I'm concerned, nothing is particularly off topic here. If it's ok with y'all.

But yes, the "cult" part - that is kind of discouraging. I could understand if he walked in and said "Catholic". Though ... you know what? I kind of suspect that he actually wouldn't recognize what is "Catholic" about it and what is not, beyond pictures of the Theotokos giving that impression.

yeah I know most would though considering the culture you all grew up. It does not surprise me neither makes me sad. It is a fact of living in a certain culture. It is not his fault
Cradle EO like myself find the celebration of Halloween kind of strange for Christians to celebrate with the toms and dripping blood...but now I learned to accept it that it is cultural not religious

Considering what I knew, and what I have learned ... my guess is that the average Protestant might not recognize certain things. At least not one with a limited background, which his is limited to one church and one teacher, for the most part.

Ah, now that I think about that ... I should actually be more concerned that his background is a bit "cultish" -- and in some senses it is.

I remember when we first met, and he and I were in Wal-Mart together, and saw my pastor there. We stopped and chatted with him, and my husband was amazed that the pastor went to Wal-Mart. I asked him why, and he said he thought he would have someone else do those kinds of things for him (!). He rather idolized his own pastor, and said that he had armed bodyguards at certain times, and so on. I think he really didn't believe the man got up and put his pants on in the morning. (not to be crude here)

But in looking back, I'm just now putting 2 and 2 together. Yes, for many years ALL of his teaching came from that one man. And he did place him on an extremely high pedestal. I think ... that kind of thinking can be dangerous.

And it's what made me worry about bringing him to church. His pastor taught (with some venom at times) against Catholics, charismatics, and a number of other churches. It took some very careful treading to let him understand that my conservative pentecostal-leaning church wasn't "of the devil" ... and he had enough tendencies in himself for spirituality that I had assumed at first we shared beliefs.

Now that I find myself in Orthodoxy, the funny thing is that again, I have asked his opinion on many, many things before I started going to the church, as I worked out theology on my own. And in nearly every case, he gave me an Orthodox answer.

He believes very much of what the church believes. He just can't accept it because the echoes of his old pastor close his eyes and ears as soon as he sees a picture of a saint, a priest's vestment, or anyone crossing themselves.

And says I'm in a cult.

Hmmmm .....

Even within EO there are the ones who "follow" a charismatic and "putting someone on the pedestal ". Human nature does not change as long as that person realizes that "his power" is limited and acts appropriately and not as a "guru" I have no problem. But there are exceptions. I think your hubby is probably projecting unconsciouly... We are all biased so I would not worry about it. Usually spouses take some time to realize EO is a true Christianity just in its Ancient form

I would let him experience it the bad and the good... and let him decide.
As a priest's wife I have seen many converts some come to the church through their spouse...Some do not at all, and some do take the long route. It is ok IMHO it is all about our comfort zone and what we are not comfortable with do take a long time to adopt and accept some do not even to bother to come out of that at all.

Pray for him that is the best gift we can all give to others and our family

 

[~Anastasia~]

Even within EO there are the ones who "follow" a charismatic and "putting someone on the pedestal ". Human nature does not change as long as that person realizes that "his power" is limited and acts appropriately and not as a "guru" I have no problem. But there are exceptions. I think your hubby is probably projecting unconsciouly... We are all biased so I would not worry about it. Usually spouses take some time to realize EO is a true Christianity just in its Ancient form

I would let him experience it the bad and the good... and let him decide.
As a priest's wife I have seen many converts some come to the church through their spouse...Some do not at all, and some do take the long route. It is ok IMHO it is all about our comfort zone and what we are not comfortable with do take a long time to adopt and accept some do not even to bother to come out of that at all.

Pray for him that is the best gift we can all give to others and our family

Thanks, Philothei.

I'm sure I came across a little worse than I meant to. If my husband jumped on like it was a bandwagon, I'd actually worry about him. He takes his faith seriously, and that's one thing I admire about him. He's very careful.

What I don't like is that he seems to be of the mind that I can't know anything, and his previous threats to keep me from going, and his refusal to discuss it. To be clear, I don't mind if he doesn't want to talk about it, as long as it's not with the mind of saying I can't go. All I want is to be allowed to go to church.

And he usually follows the "if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all" rule, so I don't want to complain about the few slips.

While it would be beyond wonderful to have him join me, I can be satisfied, as long as I can go. I guess it would make me a little sad. But I fully believe he loves God and is in the faith. I don't need to try to drag him into Orthodoxy, nor would I. One thing I have come to understand is that this is something that needs to be taken seriously, imo. It's not like deciding to go to a Methodist church one week and a Church of God the next week. It's something he would have to seek for himself, if he's interested, and not to please me.

I hope I didn't imply anything else. I was off musing, because I got a clearer picture of how he thinks of his former pastor, and why in some ways it has been hard for him.

It might lead in other ways to the difficulties now. Because I have great respect for his pastor, and I think he has had some wonderful teachings, and I've listened to him, but ... I think the man has a couple of blind spots and hasn't handled everything as lovingly as he could have. Because they were things my husband and I were discussing, I tried to present my opinion, though with the utmost respect. But I am reminded a few months ago, my husband said to me that I "turned him against his former pastor." Which I don't think I did, I am careful to praise the man in general, but I won't say that he's perfect and I do maintain that he has his blind spots. I think it's wise to be open to the idea that any man can have areas he's not perfect in.

And I'm not surprised that happens in Orthodoxy either. In fact, it may be possibly more widespread, if not just as widespread. Though I don't so much see it happening with current teachers, I certainly see the writings of certain men much emphasized.

I don't see a problem with that though. I have my favorites too ... quite a number of them. I don't see the men as perfect and infallible, but I don't necessarily see anything wrong in their teachings either, and I find I really love reading what they had to say.

In that vein, I don't see a problem with it. Some people probably do go overboard, I would guess.

Yes, I will pray for him. More than anything, I will pray for peace between us, because that is needed. He's going to have to make up his own mind, for whatever he chooses.

I do wish he wouldn't see it as a cult though, lol.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have said this many times before, but I have a buddy whose dad was raised Orthodox, he and his sister were raised Orthodox, and his mother was Baptist. as the years wore on she became more friendly toward Orthodoxy, and a few years ago she told them that for a while she had believed in the Church and wanted to join. you pray and be patient, and let God do what He does and you never know

 

[~Anastasia~]

I have said this many times before, but I have a buddy whose dad was raised Orthodox, he and his sister were raised Orthodox, and his mother was Baptist. as the years wore on she became more friendly toward Orthodoxy, and a few years ago she told them that for a while she had believed in the Church and wanted to join. you pray and be patient, and let God do what He does and you never know

I shouldn't be bringing other issues into it. As far as that goes, you are right. I become more and more convinced by the hour. (Seems every podcast I listen to or whatever I read comes back to that somehow.)

Thanks for the additional reminder.

I just need to find some wisdom in dealing with other issues I ought to have kept separate.

Thanks for the post.