Well, since you can't go to Church as much as you want (neither can I), you can spend your time learning some important doctrinal points:
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I just realized ...
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Well, since you can't go to Church as much as you want (neither can I), you can spend your time learning some important doctrinal points:
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I especially like the "santa slap" ... not that I'm into violence, but I still get a chuckle from the mental image I got from the story of St. Nicholas.
Though now I always think of St. Nikolai Velimirovic (sp?) (one day I'll have his name memorized) I really enjoy his writings. I am finding a lot of ones I really like the writings from.
Listening to Fr. Thomas Hopko quite a bit these days. I really like Fr. Seraphim Cardoza, but I think I've all but memorized the ones of his I could find.
I wish it were possible to find the Orthoros, Matins, and/or Vespers online in at least an audio format for each day, but I doubt that exists anywhere. It would be nice though!
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Entschuldigung, ich habe Sie nicht verstanden! Mein Deutsch ist schlecht!
Karl Barth and "The Church Dogmatics?" Classic Protestant over-analyzed doctrine. The 13 volume magna opus of Karl Barth, written in dense, germanic, theological jargon:
Church Dogmatics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I was 25 that year, and decided I was going to read the entire 13 volumes in the original German over Spring Break (with scant background in German). I lived with six other guys in total College/Party house squalor. It was grim....I realized once while gulping down corn flakes out of an electric skillet, the only clean dish remaining in the whole house. My roommates kept me well-oiled while undergoing this rigorous test.....acid, beer overdoses, weed.....they all helped. But the big victory came when one of them brought in a tank of nitrous oxide, and SUDDENLY, I was fluent in German and Barth made complete sense! One of those hellions won a full-ride scholarship to Yale Divinity School (he ran buck naked through our college football game in front of 15,000 people, with 3 of us getting arrested for indecent exposure).
It was not a cheap week:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/056702279X
I wouldn't recommend it.
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Oh MY! No, I can't say I'm likely to attempt that. Greek is keeping me busy enough; I have no ability to take on German. I'm not interested in over-analyzed doctrine ... I think maybe I'm winding down a bit. I don't much enjoy squalor - or corn flakes really. And drug and alcohol overdoses aren't appealing to me either. Does that pretty well cover it?
Ugh, in looking back over it, I think I recognize a bit of your German.
You know, I have the same program to learn modern Greek as I used to start out Japanese. I find it to very much get in the way to re-learn the same phrases. I'm going to be speaking in a Greek-English-Spanish-Japanese gibberish soon!!! Please no German ...
lol
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Oh MY! No, I can't say I'm likely to attempt that. Greek is keeping me busy enough; I have no ability to take on German. I'm not interested in over-analyzed doctrine ... I think maybe I'm winding down a bit. I don't much enjoy squalor - or corn flakes really. And drug and alcohol overdoses aren't appealing to me either. Does that pretty well cover it?
Ugh, in looking back over it, I think I recognize a bit of your German.
You know, I have the same program to learn modern Greek as I used to start out Japanese. I find it to very much get in the way to re-learn the same phrases. I'm going to be speaking in a Greek-English-Spanish-Japanese gibberish soon!!! Please no German ...
Yet one of my roommates was so inspired by the venture, he won a full-ride scholarship for a Doctoral Degree in Divinity from Yale, and is now a pastor at a large church somewhere in Texas (I will leave the name of it anonymous). He and another of our roommates got drunk and ran buck naked right down through the middle of a football game in front of 15,000 people. And the other roommate got his finger bit off by a Bengal Tiger when we were drunk and staggering home walking by the zoo. He was pulling her whiskers when she munched off his entire index finger. The cops found his finger in the tiger poo the next morning and ran a finger print. The next thing we knew, he was being led off the porch in handcuffs, with his poor encased hand still freshly throbbing in pain. He went to Dallas Theological Seminary and is now a Baptist Preacher. I became an Attorney....I was the black sheep of the bunch.
Those were the days.....I am pretty sure my self-imposed suffering with Barth inspired the two of them to become preachers. Go figure.
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Those stories sound like the stuff of legends!
And I admit that now I am quite curious. I attended many churches in Texas. But most not so huge. I am very tempted to ask the names of your friends! I think I only went to one or two Baptst churches there. Oh, wait, three. But two were quite small and the really large one - I think the pastor is probably quite a bit older than you are.
But those are quite some stories you tell.
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Those stories sound like the stuff of legends!
And I admit that now I am quite curious. I attended many churches in Texas. But most not so huge. I am very tempted to ask the names of your friends! I think I only went to one or two Baptst churches there. Oh, wait, three. But two were quite small and the really large one - I think the pastor is probably quite a bit older than you are.
But those are quite some stories you tell.
I am probably older than you think I am. But I am not going to disclose that either. The first guy was a Methodist preacher, and he now preaches at a megachurch. And I am not sure what size the Baptist preacher' s church is/was. I had heard they were both doing quite well, which doesn't surprise me in the least, since they both had some pronounced "entrepreneurial" tendencies in the "non-commercial" "pharmaceutical" marketing business.
I think they would be appalled that I am converting to orthodoxy.
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Well, I admit I had to guess. Judging by your stories and I'm probably stereotyping you a bit by your sig, I thought your age might fall within a certain range. But I admit I don't know the history of the non-commercial pharmaceutical tendencies, date-wise.
I suppose the chances would be small. I listened to the teaching each day from the minister at First Baptist Dallas, which was Dr. Robert Jeffress. Now watch it be him. I just checked the website and he actually looks a lot younger than I was thinking he was so ... maybe. Somehow I had thought he was much older. It was a mega-church, so when I went there I never actually saw him up close.
Are you not still in touch with them then? Would be interesting to see how they do take your turning to Orthodoxy.
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the Reformation had considered any Orthodox teachings. I'm starting to see how Protestantism, having come from Catholicism, starts with certain premises. Original sin, for instance, seems to create its own little stream of thought.
Anyway.
At least I got to go to Bible study today. And Fr. M. is sick, since last week. I feel bad for him. Canceling class for the rest of the week, and starting next week we're only having one class instead of two for Orthodoxy, and three more weeks only of the Bible study too.
I think I will be able to manage though, hopefully. In some ways, it's the people I miss as well. It was good to see many of the women I know today. Almost all of the ones I know well come to the Bible study.
Not having so much church will let me work harder at looking for a job, and less restrictions as far as hours. I plan to keep working on Greek, increase prayers with Fr. M's blessing (if he gives it) and will probably at least work on studying out some of the hymnology, since a lot of the teaching is found there. I guess I have to adjust to the Church's schedule, whether I like it or not, LOL. I do wish I could be in the choir. I'll volunteer to help with the Greek Festival too.
This thing is a bit like being on a roller coaster, getting used to the rhythms of the church. I'm used to things being the same year-round, or nearly so. Often churches adjust in December, but the whole liturgical-year thing takes getting used to.
So for now, maybe I can adjust to not having more services. I feel ok today. Tomorrow I'll probably be missing it again, LOL.
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I am and they think Orthodoxy is fantastic. They envy me though, because of their jobs. They would convert too, if they weren't working as protestant ministers. There are actually a large number of Protestant ministers in that predicament. And it is amazing how many Protestant ministers become orthodox Priests. My Priest is one of the Campus Crusades for Christ evangelicals that came into the Orthodox Church in one great big huge explosion.
It's probably my fault they are in their current predicament, what with my nitrous-oxide-fueled Karl Barth extravaganzas and so forth. Could someone be attracted to Protestantism because of THAT? I am not good at converting people to ANYTHING, so I doubt I had any effect on them.
Martin Luther tried real hard to join forces with EO:
Luther Had His Chance
What did the reformers think about the Eastern Orthodox Church? | Christian History
The complicated relationship between Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy - Jackson Presbyterian | Examiner.com
Apparently Luther had no problem with any EO doctrine, it was the other way around: Luther had too many "Catholic" ideas. EO didn't want him.
We both started just before Easter (I think) and so it was bound to be a severe letdown afterwords. How can you possibly equal a Pascha that runs from 11 pm on Saturday night until 5 AM Sunday morning? With a few hours of sleep and then off to the Church Easter Barbeque at 1 pm. But our Catechumen class starts tomorrow night, so I feel pretty full. I have read 5 books since I was received as Catechumen, everything ever wrote by St. John Crystostom, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, St. John Damascus, and numerous other things I cannot remember.
Well, there is only one Easter and like they say, it is bigger than all 12 of the "major feasts" combined. Apparently it is supposed to last all year. Remember, Christmas is "only" one of the 12 "major feasts," so that is bound to be a letdown as well.
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Interesting, interesting!
Both priests I have met in the nearby city were minister converts, I believe. I've met a number of priests that were protestant ministers. Not yet a Catholic one. Though I've found a number of Catholic clergy of varying degree that are part of online Orthodox groups. Kind of threw me off what one of them said and I saw his title, so I did a little research and realized he was actually Catholic.
It seems to me that those with a strong theological background are probably among the most predisposed to consider Orthodoxy. It makes sense, to me at least, when they start looking into the history.
Oh, I misspoke! I forgot the seminary student that was with us for a few weeks (he's two years from becoming a priest though) was Catholic, in the process of becoming a priest at least. I think he had to start over (actually a level below that) in order to become Orthodox and then enter the Orthodox seminary. I didn't get all the details from him though. He was actually a number of years older than I'd guessed (the beards can be misleading I think).
Somewhere (could have been here) I saw a joke that said something like "What do you call a theology student that studies church history?" and the answer ... a catechumen!
It made me smile anyway.
Errr ... I have no idea?
Now this I did not know. I've thought about it a few times. So I will probably go and read these later, thanks for the links.
(I'm currently bleary-eyed and only awake because my daughter is trapped by floodwaters at work - she's just gotten her driver's license and a job and I can't sleep - sigh) But my brain is not working for anything serious right now.
You have a point. (well, I started going in what ... February I think?) I was kind of thinking the schedule would return to what it was for a couple of months before Pascha but ... that was of course during Lent. And January's schedule was coming off Advent. I just don't have anything to compare it to on a yearly basis.
You read all of that, and just started class before Easter? I'm impressed.
Actually, I find I don't sit down and read long pieces well anymore. I used to. I seem to have lost that ability when I had a baby, LOL. (18 years ago!) I listen well. I've played tons of podcasts. And I can read short things and absorb them well. But ... I can't read tons of stuff and absorb it all like I used to in my university days. Or I just don't. Lack of patience or something maybe.
I've read some really great stuff by St. John Crysostom, Ignatius of Antioch, and Justin Martyr though. I really like them. Also Maximos the Confessor, Gregory Palamas, and to a lesser degree St. Nikolai Velimirovic (and I got his name right by all but one letter that time but I still have to look it up every time). Those are my favorites. Oh, and St. Cyril of Jerusalem. Ok, I guess I've read a little too, but mostly bits at a time.
My class tomorrow is cancelled. Fr. M. is not feeling well. I will pray for him. Friday's classes are cancelled permanently. Our Tuesday Bible classes only meet a few more times. And around that time, they are planning to re-evaluate if there is an ongoing need for the inquirer/catechumen class.
Then again, that could mean Fr. M. is satisfied with how we are coming along? There's one man in there who seems well-settled, a Catholic convert who I think has been coming for some time before me. He never asks questions, just listens. And one actually cradle who comes because she needs the connection with the church. She's the one actually asking all the questions, LOL. Every once in a while I get one in. Most of my questions get answered online or through research. So essentially I rarely ask questions either.
But ... we had 1 Bible study, 2 inquirer/catechesis classes, several presanctified Liturgy/Orthros, 1-2 Vespers, sometimes the Akathist or other services, and the Divine Liturygy/Orthros every week before Holy Week, which of course I pretty much lived at the church during Holy Week.
Now ... we have 1 Bible study, 1 inquirer/catechesis, and 1 Divine Liturgy/Orthros per week. And the one class will end in a few weeks,and possibly the other.
So yeah, I'm a little down about the schedule. Not just because of Pascha.
And I still don't know what the feasts have to do as far as the Church. I think maybe one of them was the Akathist to the Theotokos? I could be wrong. I attended that service though.
Christmas is going to seem odd, being celebrated "late"? I suspect we will still need to do it as traditional for the sake of my husband and daughter.
Funny, one time years ago I celebrated Christmas with my daughter on the Orthodox date, but had not heard of the church then. But we were the only ones among people I knew who did, so it did seem strange.
But tbh, I'm not much concerned about celebrations (though Pascha WAS amazing, and I'm looking forward to next year). I'm just wanting regular church services is all.
Both priests I have met in the nearby city were minister converts, I believe. I've met a number of priests that were protestant ministers. Not yet a Catholic one. Though I've found a number of Catholic clergy of varying degree that are part of online Orthodox groups. Kind of threw me off what one of them said and I saw his title, so I did a little research and realized he was actually Catholic.
It seems to me that those with a strong theological background are probably among the most predisposed to consider Orthodoxy. It makes sense, to me at least, when they start looking into the history.
Oh, I misspoke! I forgot the seminary student that was with us for a few weeks (he's two years from becoming a priest though) was Catholic, in the process of becoming a priest at least. I think he had to start over (actually a level below that) in order to become Orthodox and then enter the Orthodox seminary. I didn't get all the details from him though. He was actually a number of years older than I'd guessed (the beards can be misleading I think).
Somewhere (could have been here) I saw a joke that said something like "What do you call a theology student that studies church history?" and the answer ... a catechumen!
It made me smile anyway.
Errr ... I have no idea?
Now this I did not know. I've thought about it a few times. So I will probably go and read these later, thanks for the links.
(I'm currently bleary-eyed and only awake because my daughter is trapped by floodwaters at work - she's just gotten her driver's license and a job and I can't sleep - sigh) But my brain is not working for anything serious right now.
You have a point. (well, I started going in what ... February I think?) I was kind of thinking the schedule would return to what it was for a couple of months before Pascha but ... that was of course during Lent. And January's schedule was coming off Advent. I just don't have anything to compare it to on a yearly basis.
You read all of that, and just started class before Easter? I'm impressed.
Actually, I find I don't sit down and read long pieces well anymore. I used to. I seem to have lost that ability when I had a baby, LOL. (18 years ago!) I listen well. I've played tons of podcasts. And I can read short things and absorb them well. But ... I can't read tons of stuff and absorb it all like I used to in my university days. Or I just don't. Lack of patience or something maybe.
I've read some really great stuff by St. John Crysostom, Ignatius of Antioch, and Justin Martyr though. I really like them. Also Maximos the Confessor, Gregory Palamas, and to a lesser degree St. Nikolai Velimirovic (and I got his name right by all but one letter that time but I still have to look it up every time). Those are my favorites. Oh, and St. Cyril of Jerusalem. Ok, I guess I've read a little too, but mostly bits at a time.
My class tomorrow is cancelled. Fr. M. is not feeling well. I will pray for him. Friday's classes are cancelled permanently. Our Tuesday Bible classes only meet a few more times. And around that time, they are planning to re-evaluate if there is an ongoing need for the inquirer/catechumen class. Then again, that could mean Fr. M. is satisfied with how we are coming along? There's one man in there who seems well-settled, a Catholic convert who I think has been coming for some time before me. He never asks questions, just listens. And one actually cradle who comes because she needs the connection with the church. She's the one actually asking all the questions, LOL. Every once in a while I get one in.
Most of my questions get answered online or through research. So essentially I rarely ask questions either. But ... we had 1 Bible study, 2 inquirer/catechesis classes, several presanctified Liturgy/Orthros, 1-2 Vespers, sometimes the Akathist or other services, and the Divine Liturygy/Orthros every week before Holy Week, which of course I pretty much lived at the church during Holy Week.
Now ... we have 1 Bible study, 1 inquirer/catechesis, and 1 Divine Liturgy/Orthros per week. And the one class will end in a few weeks,and possibly the other.
So yeah, I'm a little down about the schedule. Not just because of Pascha.
And I still don't know what the feasts have to do as far as the Church. I think maybe one of them was the Akathist to the Theotokos? I could be wrong. I attended that service though.
Christmas is going to seem odd, being celebrated "late"? I suspect we will still need to do it as traditional for the sake of my husband and daughter.
Funny, one time years ago I celebrated Christmas with my daughter on the Orthodox date, but had not heard of the church then. But we were the only ones among people I knew who did, so it did seem strange.
But tbh, I'm not much concerned about celebrations (though Pascha WAS amazing, and I'm looking forward to next year). I'm just wanting regular church services is all.
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Although it is a bit sad to see what happened with Luther in his attempts to address what were abuses in the church, I do wonder if things would have turned out differently if the East was involved. There was access to the East that Luther had in some dialouges with others....but he didn't seem to value what the East had to offer enough to take significant action on it--and even with others who seemed to have similarities with the East when it came to people within the Church who were against Calvin/Zwingli (as Erasmus did as an advocate for reform within the Catholic systme/addressing the abuses without being extreme in condeming things that Calvin/Zwingli did later ), he often turned against his own supporters. ...and even things Catholics agreed with the Eastern Orthodox on would not be supported.
And when seeing the issue of the Renaissance that others were involved in and how Luther didn't support that due to his views of man being a sinner rather than having glorious things within them to be examined, he would have perhaps gone to war with the East since they have a fundamental difference in how they view man.
In addition to that, it is interesting to see what Luther often did with those in Orthodoxy when things were in his own power. Luther's right-hand man, Philip Melanchthon, was more interested in contact with the Greeks that it seems Luther was....for it wasn't even that far away for Luther to contact the East...and as it turns out, PM even rewrote the Augsburg Confession in Greek later on for an embassy to Constantinople. However, to my knowledge, it does seem there were a lot of reasons for Luther choosing not to get involved with Orthodoxy (as Constantinople was in ruins at the time after war/battle and having their own issues to contend with)....and in talks it seemed mutual that neither was ready for union. There was actually another excellent discussion elsewhere on the impact of the Reformation and Luther's involvement in the East (as seen here) and at "Contra Sola Scriptura (1 of 4) /Orthodox-Reformed Bridge."
There's also 16th Century Lutheran & Orthodox Dialogue
Granted, I know that Luther actually had the highest regard for the Orthodox, calling them "the greatest followers of the Gospel" - with it being the case that the Orthodox are the only group of Christians (other than Lutherans) that the Lutheran Confessions do not denounce. But it just seems at times that some of the other things he supported were directly counter to what other Orthodox would have fought for. That's something many within Reformed theology have often pointed out when noting what Luther said in his stances on such matters....and those things often seemed to be indicators that having greater interaction in the East may've led to further battles with them as well.
But as one will never know since it never happened and one can't see how it'd fully play out, history's always interesting in hindsight.
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Would definitely be interested in learning the name of the priest you noted - as that's a very intensive (and saddening) story and yet one full of triumph when it comes to showing how the Lord can work through situations where people are cut off from the life that comes in Divine Liturgy.
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Although the knowledge is one aspect within Orthodoxy which can be developed in time (one excellent spot for development being here ), there is something to be said on the reality of others who are separated from Divine Liturgy many times due to distance or other concerns (i.e. having to stay home/take care of disabled children, no transportation, etc.) - and chanting liturgy by themselves was not something that the Church was ever against.(ETA: I really do feel silly chanting by myself though, and I find I don't have the voice for it or the knowledge.)
And on the chanting issue, one can go here if wanting more information:
There are others besides that, of course.
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Gxg (G²);65501267 said:
It is very sad indeed. It is sad on many levels. It seems like there would have been so much to have gained for Christianity not undergoing one major senseless schism after another. Protestantism throughout virtually ALL traditions from Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. EO and Rome lost valuable access to Protestant advances. They had so much value that could have been combined for greater than the sum parts total.
Gxg (G²);65501267 said:
They do. EO is very mystically inclined, which in my opinion, could have been a very valuable asset for Protestantism. So much Protestant thought is pure human logic that leads to a distressingly-high attraction to atheism and agnosticism. .
Gxg (G²);65501267 said:
There was clearly resistance on both sides. EO probably looked at Luther as a "quasi-Roman Catholic" and EO had just succeeded 500 years before in separating from Rome.
Gxg (G²);65501267 said:
Summarily throwing out 1500 years of tradition (i.e. "preservation and practice of orally-delivered sermons and statements of the Apostles") was a massive mistake of the Protestants. Especially considering that the Protestant reform impulse was solely due to the rampant corruption of Rome.
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And I still don't know what the feasts have to do as far as the Church. I think maybe one of them was the Akathist to the Theotokos? I could be wrong. I attended that service though.
Christmas is going to seem odd, being celebrated "late"? I suspect we will still need to do it as traditional for the sake of my husband and daughter.
Feast days are celebrated with a Divine Liturgy. And did you know that some Feast Days can still be fasting days?
And Greek parishes in the U.S. are on the "new" calendar, so Nativity is the same as everyone else. Which has its good points and its bad points, either way.
How's your husband doing? Is he interested at all in Orthodoxy?
Mary
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That fact that Christmas......oooops....."Nativity" is on the same day as everyone else indicates to me that EO does not have the same investment in it as it does Pascha. In fact, Nativity is just one of 12 major feasts, all equal, whereas Pascha is bigger than all 12 of those combined. I appreciate the "demotion" of Christmas, since it has been a holiday that is pretty upsetting in a lot of different ways. Now Pascha, there's one I can throw myself into without reservation, since I have no bad childhood memories (we didn't even celebrate it at all, not even a few jelly beans). And the Resurrection became very HUGE in my life at Pascha (my first one) this year......far bigger and better than the best Christmas I ever had.
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