I have had to make an adjustment of Ephesians 1:4

[Jack Terrence]

The OP for this thread is based on defining the word "we", which doesn't even occur in Eph 1:4.

What Bible are you reading man? Verse 4 says that he chose US (the apostles) in Him before the foundation of the world in order that WE (the apostles) might be holy and without blame before him in love.

καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, εἶναι ἡμᾶς (WE) ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐν ἀγάπῃ,

Paul doesn't begin to speak truth about "you" (the Ephesians) until verse 13. The apostles were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. But the Ephesians were included in Christ when they heard the message (NIV).

 

[FreeGrace2]

What Bible are you reading man?

The same one that you've incorrectly quoted from.

Verse 4 says that he chose US (the apostles) in Him before the foundation of the world in order that WE (the apostles) might be holy and without blame before him in love.

There is only 1 use of "we" in 1:4. And I've already shown how Paul described who the "us" of v.4 refers to, in 1:19 - "us who believe".

There is no evidence at all that the "us" only refers to the apostles. God, in fact, has chosen ALL who believe to be holy and blameless.

Or must one just ignore Eph 5:27 - that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

One will need a lot of luck trying to prove that only the apostles were chosen to be "holy and blameless" in 1:4.

Paul doesn't begin to speak truth about "you" (the Ephesians) until verse 13.

Well, one must ignore 1:2 then. "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

You see, Paul BEGAN his epistle to the Ephesians by actually addressing THEM. And don't forget v.1, where he addresses "To the saints in Ephesus".

So, in fact, from the very beginning of the epistle he was addressing AND including the Ephesians with the use of "us".

According to your logic then, only apostles were predestined to be adopted as sons, per 1:5 - He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Is that really your view?

Or, in 1:7, do only apostles have "redemption in His blood" and forgiveness of sins? "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace".

Starting to see how absurd is the claim that the "us" in 1:4 only refers to apostles?

The apostles were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. But the Ephesians were included in Christ when they heard the message (NIV).

No. Paul's words are clear enough to understand that God has chosen ALL believers before the foundation of the world that they should be holy and blameless.

And 5:27 echos that teaching.

 

[tulipbee]

Of course they are. Paul was very clear about who was chosen by the word "us". He actually defined what he meant by "us" a little farther in chapter one: "and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe." v.19


No need to. I already know all about who are chosen. I know that there are at least 6 different categories of the "elect"?

Regarding my request in post #37:

"tulipbee said: ↑
Your theology has been false for a long time."

And I replied:
"Please address post #34 and point out anything in that post that is incorrect. Just throwing opinions out benefits no one."

I'll take the lack of response to my request as not finding anything that was incorrect in post #34.

Thats been covered. Us who believed are the ones God knew about

 

[Jack Terrence]

The same one that you've incorrectly quoted from.


There is only 1 use of "we" in 1:4. And I've already shown how Paul described who the "us" of v.4 refers to, in 1:19 - "us who believe".

You said that the word "we" didn't even occur in verse 4. But now you say that it occurs once. What's with the double talk?

There is no evidence at all that the "us" only refers to the apostles. God, in fact, has chosen ALL who believe to be holy and blameless.

It no where says that God chose ALL who believe to be holy and without blame "before the foundation of the world." God had chosen the only apostles to be holy and blameless "before the foundation of the world." God's purpose is indeed that ALL who believe be holy and blameless. But he did NOT purpose ALL to be holy and blameless "before the foundation of the world."

Or must one just ignore Eph 5:27 - that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

My only argument here is that it does NOT say that God actually purposed that the Church be holy and blameless "before the foundation of the world."

One will need a lot of luck trying to prove that only the apostles were chosen to be "holy and blameless" in 1:4.

You have not been paying attention to what I am saying. Where have I said that only the apostles were chosen to be holy and blameless? What I have said that only the apostles were chosen to be holy and blameless "before the foundation of the world." Just because God wants ALL to be holy and blameless does NOT prove that he purposed that regarding all "before the foundation of the world."

Well, one must ignore 1:2 then. "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

You see, Paul BEGAN his epistle to the Ephesians by actually addressing THEM. And don't forget v.1, where he addresses "To the saints in Ephesus".

A salutation to them cannot qualify as a statement about them

[According to your logic then, only apostles were predestined to be adopted as sons, per 1:5 - He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

No, that follows according to your logic. We know from other scriptures that ALL who believe were predestined to the adoption of sons. But nothing may be inferred about all who believe from verses1-12. You cannot read into verses 1-12 what other scriptures say about all who believe.

Verse 9 CLEARLY says that that the mystery was revealed to "US" so that it could be "put into effect" for the purpose of bringing all things into unity. The mystery was NOT made known to the Ephesian Gentiles. It was made known to the apostles only (per Peter). The Gentiles did NOT put the mystery of God's will into effect. Only the apostles were chosen to put it into effect.

Again, just because some of the truths about the apostles were also true about all who believe does NOT prove that Paul was speaking about all who believe in verses 1-12. We can clearly see that some truths in verses 1-12 were NOT true about all who believe. For instance, Paul CLEARLY said that he was speaking about us who "FIRST trusted in Christ." It was the apostles who FIRST trusted in Christ. The Ephesians were Gentiles. The Gentiles didn't hear the message and believe until much later in time. Therefore, that particular statement "who FIRST trusted in Christ" CANNOT apply to Gentiles at all, especially you and me who came into salvation nearly 2,000 years later. At best you may infer only what Butch5 says. He says that the phrase "FIRST trusted in Christ" has reference to all Jews who believed. But that doesn't work either because NOT ALL Jews who believed were the "first" to trust in Christ.

Verse 13 says that the Ephesians were included in Christ when they heard the message and marked in Him for salvation when they believed. Only the apostles were marked in Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thats been covered. Us who believed are the ones God knew about

OK. And God knows about everyone, even the ones who won't believe. What's the point?

The point of Eph 1:4 is the same point as 5:27. God chooses believers for service.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said that the word "we" didn't even occur in verse 4. But now you say that it occurs once. What's with the double talk?

I suppose you've never made any mistakes. The focus is on the "us" anyway.

It no where says that God chose ALL who believe to be holy and without blame "before the foundation of the world."

Really? That would be news to Paul, who penned the verse. Please show me in that verse or in the immediate context where God left some believers out from having to be holy and without blame.

God had chosen the only apostles to be holy and blameless "before the foundation of the world." God's purpose is indeed that ALL who believe be holy and blameless. But he did NOT purpose ALL to be holy and blameless "before the foundation of the world."

This repeated claim still has not been proven from exegesis. It's just a claim.

My only argument here is that it does NOT say that God actually purposed that the Church be holy and blameless "before the foundation of the world."

Why wouldn't that be God's purpose? Please explain.

You have not been paying attention to what I am saying. Where have I said that only the apostles were chosen to be holy and blameless?

In the above quote of yours.

What I have said that only the apostles were chosen to be holy and blameless "before the foundation of the world." Just because God wants ALL to be holy and blameless does NOT prove that he purposed that regarding all "before the foundation of the world."

There is no logic here at all. Nor Scriptural support for your claim.

Why would there be such a difference as to WHEN God chose the apostles, and the rest of believer-dom, to be holy and blameless?

A salutation to them cannot qualify as a statement about them

Instead, the salutation to them shows that the context includes them.

No, that follows according to your logic. We know from other scriptures that ALL who believe were predestined to the adoption of sons. But nothing may be inferred about all who believe from verses1-12.

This hasn't been proven; not even close. In fact, all that Paul wrote about in ch 1 and 2 apply to all who believe.

You cannot read into verses 1-12 what other scriptures say about all who believe.

I haven't done that. Everything that applies to apostles also applies to all who believe. And you've just admitted that it was not only apostles who were adopted as sons. And all that is in the first 12 verses. You've been caught pickin' and choosin' how to take certain words.

Verse 9 CLEARLY says that that the mystery was revealed to "US" so that it could be "put into effect" for the purpose of bringing all things into unity.

This single verse would clearly indicate that the apostles had the mystery revealed to them. But not all the other verses.

The mystery was NOT made known to the Ephesian Gentiles.

Malarky. Paul himself made the mystery known to the Ephesians.
1:9, 3:3,4,9, 5:32 and 6:19. If Paul hadn't made the mystery known to them, why did he mention the mystery to them these 6 times?

It was made known to the apostles only (per Peter). The Gentiles did NOT put the mystery of God's will into effect. Only the apostles were chosen to put it into effect.

This isn't the debate. Focus.

Again, just because some of the truths about the apostles were also true about all who believe does NOT prove that Paul was speaking about all who believe in verses 1-12.

You've not proven otherwise.

We can clearly see that some truths in verses 1-12 were NOT true about all who believe. For instance, Paul CLEARLY said that he was speaking about us who "FIRST trusted in Christ." It was the apostles who FIRST trusted in Christ. The Ephesians were Gentiles. The Gentiles didn't hear the message and believe until much later in time. Therefore, that particular statement "who FIRST trusted in Christ" CANNOT apply to Gentiles at all, especially you and me who came into salvation nearly 2,000 years later.

This example is pitiful and irrelevant. All v.12 says is that Paul and other apostles believed before the Ephesians did. No big deal.

Verse 13 says that the Ephesians were included in Christ when they heard the message and marked in Him for salvation when they believed. Only the apostles were marked in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Is God not omniscient? Of course He is. And He can choose anyone He wants anytime He wants. It doesn't matter WHEN one believes. Eph 1:4 is about the fact that all who believe have been chosen to be holy and blameless and that choice was before the foundation of the world.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jack Terrence]

I suppose you've never made any mistakes. The focus is on the "us" anyway.

I corrected you last week and showed you that both "us" and "we" are in the Greek NT. Yet you persisted in your error. That's NOT a mistake! That appears dishonest.

The "us" and the "we" are the same persons. Each are first person plural. I give an example from you and me: We go back and forth on this forum and nothing is ever resolved between us. The "us" and the "we" are the same persons.

Really? That would be news to Paul, who penned the verse. Please show me in that verse or in the immediate context where God left some believers out from having to be holy and without blame.

Again, I NEVER said that only the apostles were to be holy and blameless. This makes me wonder if you really do have an issue with dishonesty.

In verses 2-12 Paul was showing the authority of the apostolic company as was his usual manner in the prologue of his epistles. He said that God had chosen us (the apostles) in him before the foundation of the world in order that we (the apostles) might be holy and blameless before him in love. He said that we (the apostles) were predestined to the adoption as sons and that we (the apostles) were given to know the mystery in order that we (the apostles) might put it into effect, etc, etc, etc.

Then in verse 13 he begins to talk about the Ephesians. As we read on we find that some of the things which were true of the apostles were also true of the Ephesians such as being holy and blameless and being adopted as sons. But being chosen in Christ for God's purpose "before the foundation of the world" was NOT one of those things. Paul said NOTHING about God having a purpose for them "before the foundation of the world." Nada! We may infer only that God had a purpose for the Ephesians when they were included in Christ. That was NOT before the foundation of the world. That was when they heard the message. And they were marked out "in him" for salvation when they believed.

Neither was the mystery revealed to the Ephesians, nor the ministry to put it into effect. Supporting scripture: "We (the apostles) are Christ's ambassadors.... We implore you to be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5.

This will be the last I will speak to you on this subject as I can count on you to misrepresent me.

 

[sdowney717]

How about viewing it in this way. The apostles, such as Paul were chosen to be apostles before the world existed. That is God ordained beforehand their apostleship in the Lord, this their calling. Paul in several letters defends his own apostleship and also describes thus to Timothy. So then don't go beyond what is written excluding other believers who the Lord called from the foundation of the world as it does say this in several other scriptures.

Yes they were called from the foundation to be apostles. Paul is speaking of themselves, actually I get the idea of Paul's ministry team, Paul was not alone on this trip to Ephesus. The believers were not called to be apostles, the Lord called them into other ministries to still be a part of His body still from the foundation of the world.

Even this, I think is a stretch, as there is no distinction between believers, all God called from the foundation of this world.
For God to have foreknown His people, that necessarily means this is eternal outside of time those that He calls. So the verse saying

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Is just that in the fullness of time, God chose to reveal His Son Christ in them, having foreknown all His people beforehand. You can not set up a conflict in the Scripture. At v13, these people got saved. Before the Paul's conversion experience, his name was Saul and he was not saved.

 

[tulipbee]

OK. And God knows about everyone, even the ones who won't believe. What's the point?

The point of Eph 1:4 is the same point as 5:27. God chooses believers for service.

Why are you demanding God to give you a point?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I corrected you last week and showed you that both "us" and "we" are in the Greek NT. Yet you persisted in your error. That's NOT a mistake! That appears dishonest.

The "us" and the "we" are the same persons. Each are first person plural. I give an example from you and me: We go back and forth on this forum and nothing is ever resolved between us. The "us" and the "we" are the same persons.

And the "us" in 1:4 is the same "us" as in 1:19.

Again, I NEVER said that only the apostles were to be holy and blameless. This makes me wonder if you really do have an issue with dishonesty.

It would be far more appropriate to wonder if your posts are making any sense.

In verses 2-12 Paul was showing the authority of the apostolic company as was his usual manner in the prologue of his epistles. He said that God had chosen us (the apostles) in him before the foundation of the world in order that we (the apostles) might be holy and blameless before him in love. He said that we (the apostles) were predestined to the adoption as sons and that we (the apostles) were given to know the mystery in order that we (the apostles) might put it into effect, etc, etc, etc.

It seems to me that the only point of this thread is that only apostles were chosen before the foundation of the world. Paul included all believers in being holy and blameless i 5:27, so I don't see much point in your point.

Neither was the mystery revealed to the Ephesians, nor the ministry to put it into effect. Supporting scripture: "We (the apostles) are Christ's ambassadors.... We implore you to be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5.

Nonsense. I cited 6 times Paul spoke of the mystery to the Ephesian believers. He certainly DID reveal the mystery to them.

This will be the last I will speak to you on this subject as I can count on you to misrepresent me.

Whatever. There is nothing useful in the point of this thread that only apostles were chosen from before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless, since all believers have been chosen to be that.

 

[sdowney717]

Most everyone keeps forgetting this scripture, about the people of the Lord whom He has foreknown beforehand, from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.

And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

God's people, whom He has foreknown, will refuse to worship, marvel at and follow the beast, as their names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the earth.

 

[Tree of Life]

Let me say right off the bat that I am still a Calvinist. But I no longer believe that Ephesians 1:4 supports the teaching that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It has become clear to me now that Paul was speaking only about the apostolic company. He says that "WE" (the apostles) were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that "YOU" (the Ephesians) were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, and were marked in him when "YOU" believed.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Verses 1-12 are about the apostles. They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and were endowed with all spiritual blessings in Christ and were adopted as sons. We know that Paul was speaking about the apostles because he said that God had made known to them the mystery of his will that they might put into effect God's will. Believers did not put God's will into effect. The apostles put God's will into effect. We know too by the phrase "we who FIRST trusted in Christ." It is the apostles who FIRST trusted in Christ.


Verse 13 is about the Ephesians. They were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world as were the apostles. They were included in Christ "when they heard the message of truth." They were marked in Christ when they believed.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

This is an interesting note but what makes you think that the "we" in verses 1-12 refers strictly to the apostles?